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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
Now as for my thoughts on the actual Kavanaugh situation.

1. No.. I'm not a fan. Before we even get to the confirmation hearting(which is just a circus) I am not a fan of how he comes to decisions and hearing.
2. I agree with @Somerset Ravens on mostly everything. They acted like children.. So did Kavanaugh. I get why he was pissed off, I certainly wouldn't be happy in that situation either. But at the end of the day, these are criminal accusations. He's entitled to a fair trial, and this should've gone to court, not testified in Congress.
3. Again, I get why Kavanaugh acted passionately and angrily. He was not in the position of a judge but of the defendant. I'm not mad about that. I'm mad that he clearly committed perjury, which in my opinion should've disqualified him. Sure, she techincally did too, but a Judge committing perjury is irony even Alanis Morisette could see.
4. Both parties are fucking idiots at least within Congress at the moment(the point of my previous post. I think everyone is acting like a child) but republicans were at more fault. Even though I agree with the "innocent until proven guilty" due process, he committed perjury on the stand repeatedly. The republicans, in my eyes, decided to confirm someone who did that
5. I understand that our legal process is flawed and that false accusations are unlikely, but everyone is entitled to a fair trial with corroborating evidence. Because false accusations are UNLIKELY... They do happen. It is a constitutional right to give one and this should have been a criminal hearing.
6. The FBI cannot come to a verdict and he had undergone several other background checks by them.

I do believe survivors, but only enough to start an investigation. They should not be ignored and accusations should be taken seriously, hence why I wanted a thorough investigation. If Kavanaugh is indeed a rapist, I don't want him on the bench even more than I already didn't. But they should be treated as accusations until their is corroborating evidence. Otherwise we are going to throw innocent people into jail. It was a criminal accusation. Republicans should have halted the confirmation and have proceeded to a criminal investigation to let the courts decide. It doesn't matter to me if this is a job interview or not, like I said, as unlikely as they are, false accusations do happen. It is a constitutional right to have a fair trial.

There's a lot of things with this Kavanaugh investigation that I totally hated. I didn't want him as a justice(I had no fundamental problems with Trump's first choice. Hell, I liked Merrick Garland). I don't think this sets the "precedent for rapists" like the media will make you believe. The massive protesting backlash is going disprove that. We as a population are better than that, aside from a few bad apples. What makes me truly upset is that we as a population really didn't have a say. This was all the senate. No one else. This wasn't like the presidential election where we could all vote(and yes, your vote does matter). It's people we voted in, but Senators are known to go against their constituents.

So if you want to prevent something like this from happening in the future. Go vote, I know I will.
 

Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
I’m OK with Justice Kavanaugh being on the Supreme Court as long as the accusations are not proven. And no I don’t give a DAMN what position they’re running for EVERYONE no matter who, is entitled to a presumption of innocence in legal cases and public ones and to not do so even once is to crumble the very fabric of our legal system.

If all it takes is an accusation then....well i don’t even want to think of how awfull that would be. I mean that system doesn’t even work in fantasy land.

The accusations are laughable at best and if your really want a full investigation, then you go to the police, to do what she did is both unproductive and damaging to her credibility.

She wasn’t afraid of flying, she lied under oath also, which of you are using that as a damning endorsement then there you go, and she went to a politician instead of law enforcement, exactly what you would do if you were more concerned with the public perception of him rather then any legal reprocussion. And the FBI even said there wasn’t anything to investigate before they were forced to do there best over a week.

She didn’t know The Who what when where or how of her story. Ask any sexual assualt victim and they can give you every detail of where they were, who they were with, what time it happened, and the people they call forward don’t dispute their claims.

Take Joanna Broderick for example. In her allegations against Bill Clinton, she could tell you in exact detail what happened.

Oh, and also, every current and future Democrat nominees raped me, guess that’s all I need to say about that.
in what way were those allegations laughable?

and you obviously didnt watch the testimony because she did answer the who, what, where, when and how of the story - she answered all those questions under oath

and with statements like that i dont think you've ever spoken to any survivor ever - because PTSD from incidents like that does different things to everyone's brain - some can never forget the details and others have mental blocks that form over anything even remotely related to the incidents

i can tell by the way you talk about this that you've never even considered why survivors rarely report sexual crimes and why they dont come forward
Here's my issue. Allegations should be taken seriously enough to warrant an investigation. There wasn't one, but a few of them seemed extreme. The problem here is that while these false accusations are indeed rare, they do occur. If we immediately just believe everyone that comes out we are inevitably going to ge several innocent people going to jail. Plain and simple. An investigation may be time consuming(unless it is indeed a sham), but something like that should be time consuming. Sure, it would have likely played into the democrats best interests to delay the confirmation, makes logical sense, you can win the senate and House and negate Trump entirely until 2020. It's a sound strategy, but I would much rather have justice than partisanship. If he's guilty, then I don't want him on the bench, plain and simple. If he's not guilty and she's falsely accusing him, then she commits perjury and goes to jail because that's a serious crime too.

It's why I am mad at both sides. Republicans should have allowed a full legal investigation. Democrats should have never let it go to Congress instead of a criminal court.
 

Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
there are a lot of studies on who and what and when false accusations happen and there are some surprisingly consistent indicators across the board - these types of accusations fit none of those indicators
The problem with this statement is that statistics, kind of like sports analytics, are a tool to used, not the rule. It's also why I don't fully buy into @Ludy51 's body language thing either. If we are to use solely statistics to solve our problem then without a doubt more guilty criminals will walk, and more innocent people will be locked up. This is more of a trivial fact. It's good to know, but that should not interfere or determine an investigation. The facts should. Also, I can guarentee you that neither of us know everything. And how the hell would we know? We aren't detectives and are not granted access to such, and it's highly likely that not all of the facts would even be made public. Again, it warrants an investigation regardless. You can't have a fair trial without one.

This isn't a valid argument. Sure, there are common statistical indicators but a full investigation wasn't truly launched. We likely don't know all of the facts. We should have uncovered all of them. Again, fair trial. (What's ironic about this is) There is a reason a biased judge needs to be removed from a criminal courtroom. If the courtroom has a biased judge we suddenly have innocent men and women getting locked up and guilty men and women-walking off scott free, and while this happens already, this would just get worse. This is a criminal issue. These were criminal accusations, and there should have been a criminal investigation before a confirmation hearing. No if, ands, or buts about it.

Your argument that "this is a job interview, and appointed officials shouldn't even be considered with such accusations" is automatically disproven with your statement that "statistically the false accusations are rare". While a true statement, even you are admitting that they do happen. Believing survivors is fine, but is utterly useless if we don't have an investigation followed by a fair trial. I get why Kavanaugh didn't want a FBI investigation. He's a judge, he understands that they can't come to verdicts, courtrooms can. And whether he wants one or not is irrelevant, if she decided to press criminal charges, there would have been a true criminal investigation(which we DID NOT get, we got an FBI background check. That's a little different)regardless of what he wanted and it would have been out of the hands of the Senate(like it should have been). Also, in any job interview if you are proven to be innocent, it will not show up on a criminal record and you, if you meet the other qualifications, will get hired.

This argument isn't a good one, because if he is proven innocent, then there's no fundamental problem with approving him other than the fact that you and I disagree with his ideology. Which is fine, I hate 95% of the members of the government anyways, nothing I can do of it for all but three of them. Kavanaugh should've been tried in criminal court, and we should have let them come to an actual verdict before proceeding. It is tedious, arduous, and time-consuming, but both Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford were constitutionally entitled to a fair trial, and whoever is innocent deserves justice.

That's where the republicans truly screwed up in my opinion. With regards to those, statistics like these be damned. It should not matter if there are commonalities such as these, it is still worth investigating regardless. The "fair trial" bit applies to both the defendant and the plaintiff. Does it always happen like that? No. People screw up and it sucks. But there's a reason why it's "innocent until proven guilty" and not the other way around. It's because people do get framed and false accusations do occur. The FBI should have been authorized to do more than just a simple background check, of which I believe 8 were run. A true investigation should have been launched. That would be the moral thing to do.

That said, I agree with @Somerset Ravens. This wasn't fair at all. This is where democrats screwed up. This wasn't a true trial, but Kavanaugh clearly went into a biased room and some of the questions that he was asked were utterly ridiculous and had no true bearing. He lied, yes, but even you admitted that this wasn't a criminal trial. It makes him amoral in my eyes which is why I have a problem with it. That's my problem with absolving them of blame. Even if this wasn't criminal, there wasn't an impartial person in that room like their should have been. The Senate is responsible for confirmations, but they should not have been the ones who handled this, an unbiased jury and judge should have. Especially since it's obvious to everyone that the democrats had an agenda here, they were clearly trying to get this delayed before midterms. If this were a real trial and all of the senators were lawyers of both Dr. Ford and Justice Kavanaugh, every senator would've been held in contempt. It was a circus and there's no denying it. So yes, both parties are at fault, and that proves it. Who is more at fault is obvious, but no one is absolved.

I don't buy the whole "he was partisan" argument either as a knock against... Everyone on the court is an ideologue of some sort. Hell, I subscribe to an ideology too even if the name is "moderate", everyone does. The difference between that and the Supreme Court is that there are multiple justices and each of them have differing ideologies. The court has been partisan body since the Warren days. The "he was partisan" argument just doesn't hold it's weight for me for that reason. Every member of that court is an ideologue and to say otherwise would be hilariously foolish. In fact, I kind of like that about the court and it's why I hope the Senate goes blue. We could use a Merrick Garland type who's not really all that partisan to restore balance so the court can act as one impartial judge when they come to a vote. I get why he was pissed off. Again, if it were a trial he would not be a judge, but a defendant, and he acted like a defendant.

Again, I'm not a fan of Kavanaugh. But let's not pretend like this was a fair process on either side. Both sides came in completely biased and with an agenda and Dr. Ford and Justice Kavanaugh alike were denied the opportunity for a fair trial. It statistics alone shouldn't matter. Whether you and I believe guilt or innocence shouldn't have mattered. A true criminal investigation should have been launched. If this was a real trial any moderate judge would have declared a mistrial and the process would have started all over again.

@Ludy51 due process didn't win at all. This wasn't a trial, and there should have been one. I don't blindly believe survivors because false accusations do happen. But I won't ignore accusations, that'd be unfair to a plaintiff and frankly it's unconstitutional.
 

Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
And before anyone says anything. 7 parts of the sixth amendment

1. You have the right to a speedy trail-You may not delay it for any reason whatsoever, that is unfair to both plaintiff and defendant. Again, ensure a fair trial.
2. You have the right to a public trial
3. You have the right be tried by an IMPARTIAL jury- this is where "fair trial" comes into play. This ensures that there is no bias. There's a reason that biased jurorers and judges are removed from a courtroom and why alternates are selected.
4. The right to be informed of pending charges
5. The right to confront and to cross-examine adverse witnesses
6. The right to compel favorable witnesses to testify at the trial through the subpoena power of the judiciary
7. Right to legal counsel.

This should've gone to trial and was obviously evident of total senatorial failure. Justice wasn't served, due process didn't even occur, and now the best case scenario is that the family members of Kavanaugh are likely going to be forever ruined reputation wise(sure, he may deserve it but do his children), and that Dr. Ford brought this to light for future cases, and hopefully inspired an entire generation of victims to come forward and be brave. The worst case scenario is that we have a rapist on the bench who totally turns the court into a full on partisan entity. Consequentially, we now have no trial to determine whether claims are true or false, no corroborative evidence, and significant uncertainty, which is the worst outcome you could ever get in this scenario.
 

cobrajet

Hall of Famer
They did indeed. And it is a damn shame, and if I were a guy who didn't work for the senate, I would say that I'd hope democrats won it... Which I think is guaranteed now. If/when RBG goes dies and/or retires the court goes even more out of balance.
Don’t forget Stephen Breyer, he is 80. He and is just as liberal as RBG, who is 85. Can you imagine if President Trump got to replace both of them during his time in office? It very well could happen.
 

DeVito52

Ravens Ring of Honor
so what?
a study was conducted to see if women would levy false accusations against powerful people in a hypothetical situation for 700k - only one woman said she would consider it for 2mill and she pulled out

even if these lawyers have these connections and those connections really are doing this - what's the incentive for these women?
I’d levy false accusations for half those amounts so I say that study is bs.
 

DeVito52

Ravens Ring of Honor
I’m glad I don’t look at this thread often, all this garbage is freakin annoying
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
They did indeed. And it is a damn shame, and if I were a guy who didn't work for the senate, I would say that I'd hope democrats won it... Which I think is guaranteed now. If/when RBG goes dies and/or retires the court goes even more out of balance.
RBG will be holding out as long as possible. For the better of the country it’s much better to have a Supreme Court with Balance.
 

JO_75

Hall of Famer
Weird how politics work, you say your for something but when its the other side saying the same thing it's bad. Check this video out where Hillary talked a lot like Trump when it came to securing the border.



Weird how all of a sudden the dems have a problem with securing the border when at first Hillary was all for it. Wish there was a way to have balance not just in the supreme court but everywhere within government. Instead of fighting everything, talk and discuss and come to a neutral solution that makes everyone happy and is best for the country.
 

The Raven

Veteran
5. And progressives. You've ruined the democrats too. Sure, you have your reasonable ones such as Corey Booker, Barrack Obama(I don't agree with him on everything but he's certainly not an extremist like so many republicans paint him out to be), Tim Kaine, Joe Biden. Then you get your progressives. Bernie Sanders' economic policies have never worked in a country with the dense population we have. In fact, for all the things he preaches(income equality), they would just make things work. Elizabeth Warren is extreme, and since Kamala Harris is likely to be President one day, she's bad too. Let's get this out of the way. YES, racism, sexism, homophobia, etc is all bad. You should never judge people for your characteristics but you've taken things too far. There's always going to be those things even if they are totally reprehensible, and the sad but honest truth is you can do nothing about it. Some people are just inherently bad. Education can't save them. And while I believe that discussion and disagreement is a good thing, I will make an exception for idiots that are discriminatory. They're not worth shaming, they're not worth talking too, they are LOST CAUSES as human beings. Your problem is the opposite of the tea party. You are also sensaltionist, but you think with your heart and not your brain. There are problems in this country, the Tea Party doesn't want to admit it, but you want to paint America as this racist, sexist, misogynistic country. There are no tangible laws discriminating against anyone anymore. That doesn't mean discrimination doesn't occur, it certainly does, and to not admit it is stupid. We're not perfect but we're not only improving massively and have come a LONG WAY in the past 50 years alone, but the law has done it's job. Abortion is legal, and will stay that way. Gay marriage is legal, and it will say that way. LEGALLY other races have the same rights across the country. Men and women legally have the same rights. Most people don't get it, but there's so much a government can do unless it is fascist, and going in that direction is not the way we should go. You demonize the other party so hard that even the moderate republicans and the normally blue rust belt decided to vote for DONALD FUCKING TRUMP. Think about that for a second. We voted a reality TV star to be the leader of the free world because of childish people.. I've been saying it since the beginning; Trump isn't the disease, he's the symptom of childish media and Congressional polarization. The hilarious thing is he's likely going to win again because the way he won is still working (he would say ridiculous shit, get free press, and not have to spend a dime to get his political agenda out despite the fact that he clearly didn't know what the fuck he was doing)

I have a fundamental disagreement with your assertion that progressives are killing the Democrats. This argument is at odds with historical facts. The notion that Biden and Kaine are progressives is, well, wrong.

History tells us that Democrats won when they were progressive. History tells us that progressives like TR and FDR won victories for working people: living wages, stronger unions, trust busting, social security, medicare, medicaid, etc... It's the neoliberals who are killing the Democrats. What real victories have moderate Democrats won us? What did Carter and Clinton accomplish? Clinton was good on jobs and the budget but did little else to really help Americans. Even Obama gave too much ground.

FDR, Truman, JFK, and even LBJ are all to the left of the Democratic mainstream. FDR won four terms. Since Jimmy Carter, the moderate, neoliberal Democrat has done nothing but lose campaigns and policy battles.

TL;DR? Democrats abandoned progressivism and promptly started losing at everything.

Oh, and until wages start keeping pace with absurd corporate profits, I will continue to use the phrase "bourgeois trash" and will do so liberally and with glee.
 
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cobrajet

Hall of Famer
The problem with this statement is that statistics, kind of like sports analytics, are a tool to used, not the rule. It's also why I don't fully buy into @Ludy51 's body language thing either. If we are to use solely statistics to solve our problem then without a doubt more guilty criminals will walk, and more innocent people will be locked up. This is more of a trivial fact. It's good to know, but that should not interfere or determine an investigation. The facts should. Also, I can guarentee you that neither of us know everything. And how the hell would we know? We aren't detectives and are not granted access to such, and it's highly likely that not all of the facts would even be made public. Again, it warrants an investigation regardless. You can't have a fair trial without one.

This isn't a valid argument. Sure, there are common statistical indicators but a full investigation wasn't truly launched. We likely don't know all of the facts. We should have uncovered all of them. Again, fair trial. (What's ironic about this is) There is a reason a biased judge needs to be removed from a criminal courtroom. If the courtroom has a biased judge we suddenly have innocent men and women getting locked up and guilty men and women-walking off scott free, and while this happens already, this would just get worse. This is a criminal issue. These were criminal accusations, and there should have been a criminal investigation before a confirmation hearing. No if, ands, or buts about it.

Your argument that "this is a job interview, and appointed officials shouldn't even be considered with such accusations" is automatically disproven with your statement that "statistically the false accusations are rare". While a true statement, even you are admitting that they do happen. Believing survivors is fine, but is utterly useless if we don't have an investigation followed by a fair trial. I get why Kavanaugh didn't want a FBI investigation. He's a judge, he understands that they can't come to verdicts, courtrooms can. And whether he wants one or not is irrelevant, if she decided to press criminal charges, there would have been a true criminal investigation(which we DID NOT get, we got an FBI background check. That's a little different)regardless of what he wanted and it would have been out of the hands of the Senate(like it should have been). Also, in any job interview if you are proven to be innocent, it will not show up on a criminal record and you, if you meet the other qualifications, will get hired.

This argument isn't a good one, because if he is proven innocent, then there's no fundamental problem with approving him other than the fact that you and I disagree with his ideology. Which is fine, I hate 95% of the members of the government anyways, nothing I can do of it for all but three of them. Kavanaugh should've been tried in criminal court, and we should have let them come to an actual verdict before proceeding. It is tedious, arduous, and time-consuming, but both Kavanaugh and Dr. Ford were constitutionally entitled to a fair trial, and whoever is innocent deserves justice.

That's where the republicans truly screwed up in my opinion. With regards to those, statistics like these be damned. It should not matter if there are commonalities such as these, it is still worth investigating regardless. The "fair trial" bit applies to both the defendant and the plaintiff. Does it always happen like that? No. People screw up and it sucks. But there's a reason why it's "innocent until proven guilty" and not the other way around. It's because people do get framed and false accusations do occur. The FBI should have been authorized to do more than just a simple background check, of which I believe 8 were run. A true investigation should have been launched. That would be the moral thing to do.

That said, I agree with @Somerset Ravens. This wasn't fair at all. This is where democrats screwed up. This wasn't a true trial, but Kavanaugh clearly went into a biased room and some of the questions that he was asked were utterly ridiculous and had no true bearing. He lied, yes, but even you admitted that this wasn't a criminal trial. It makes him amoral in my eyes which is why I have a problem with it. That's my problem with absolving them of blame. Even if this wasn't criminal, there wasn't an impartial person in that room like their should have been. The Senate is responsible for confirmations, but they should not have been the ones who handled this, an unbiased jury and judge should have. Especially since it's obvious to everyone that the democrats had an agenda here, they were clearly trying to get this delayed before midterms. If this were a real trial and all of the senators were lawyers of both Dr. Ford and Justice Kavanaugh, every senator would've been held in contempt. It was a circus and there's no denying it. So yes, both parties are at fault, and that proves it. Who is more at fault is obvious, but no one is absolved.

I don't buy the whole "he was partisan" argument either as a knock against... Everyone on the court is an ideologue of some sort. Hell, I subscribe to an ideology too even if the name is "moderate", everyone does. The difference between that and the Supreme Court is that there are multiple justices and each of them have differing ideologies. The court has been partisan body since the Warren days. The "he was partisan" argument just doesn't hold it's weight for me for that reason. Every member of that court is an ideologue and to say otherwise would be hilariously foolish. In fact, I kind of like that about the court and it's why I hope the Senate goes blue. We could use a Merrick Garland type who's not really all that partisan to restore balance so the court can act as one impartial judge when they come to a vote. I get why he was pissed off. Again, if it were a trial he would not be a judge, but a defendant, and he acted like a defendant.

Again, I'm not a fan of Kavanaugh. But let's not pretend like this was a fair process on either side. Both sides came in completely biased and with an agenda and Dr. Ford and Justice Kavanaugh alike were denied the opportunity for a fair trial. It statistics alone shouldn't matter. Whether you and I believe guilt or innocence shouldn't have mattered. A true criminal investigation should have been launched. If this was a real trial any moderate judge would have declared a mistrial and the process would have started all over again.

@Ludy51 due process didn't win at all. This wasn't a trial, and there should have been one. I don't blindly believe survivors because false accusations do happen. But I won't ignore accusations, that'd be unfair to a plaintiff and frankly it's unconstitutional.
If you knew the amount of false allegations when it came to sex offenses it would blow your mind. I have had several in my career. I have had women I had taken into emergency rooms for rape kits thrown out of the hospitals by doctors. I have had to set a father straight who wanted to kill a teenage boy, who his daughter said raped her, only to apologize to me later saying he was glad I stopped him because his daughter made up the whole story because her brother caught her having sex and was scared he would tell on her. I have went back into the sex offense databases to see if suspects of the victims I wrote reports for, were identified and arrested, only to find out these reports were actually changed to unfounded by the sex offense unit detectives. When I saw how many sex offense complaints were unfounded, it actually blew my mind. False reports of rape are actually quite common, but the average person has no clue.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
If you knew the amount of false allegations when it came to sex offenses it would blow your mind. I have had several in my career. I have had women I had taken into emergency rooms for rape kits thrown out of the hospitals by doctors. I have had to set a father straight who wanted to kill a teenage boy, who his daughter said raped her, only to apologize to me later saying he was glad I stopped him because his daughter made up the whole story because her brother caught her having sex and was scared he would tell on her. I have went back into the sex offense databases to see if suspects of the victims I wrote reports for, were identified and arrested, only to find out these reports were actually changed to unfounded by the sex offense unit detectives. When I saw how many sex offense complaints were unfounded, it actually blew my mind. False reports of rape are actually quite common, but the average person has no clue.

I'd recommend reading this study (it's only around 15 pages long) about the frequency of false allegations and their classification by law enforcement (i dont mean to patronize - i realise this is your job but I only mention this study because it talks specifically about the classification of sexual offences as unfounded):
https://web.archive.org/web/2018010...gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf

and this too on what types of people make false rape accusations and the characteristics of those accusations:
https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

interestingly the example you mention of the father fits almost perfectly into one of the typical examples (and their characteristics) in the article above of the type of situation that would bring forth a false accusation

the author of that article also did a little tweet thread with relation to Christine Blasey-Ford (if you're interested but obviously this gets more political - so feel free to skip this one):
https://twitter.com/sannewman/status/1041709681989836801

let me know what you think
 

cobrajet

Hall of Famer
I'd recommend reading this study (it's only around 15 pages long) about the frequency of false allegations and their classification by law enforcement (i dont mean to patronize - i realise this is your job but I only mention this study because it talks specifically about the classification of sexual offences as unfounded):
https://web.archive.org/web/2018010...gov/conference/handouts/False-Allegations.pdf

and this too on what types of people make false rape accusations and the characteristics of those accusations:
https://qz.com/980766/the-truth-about-false-rape-accusations/

interestingly the example you mention of the father fits almost perfectly into one of the typical examples (and their characteristics) in the article above of the type of situation that would bring forth a false accusation

the author of that article also did a little tweet thread with relation to Christine Blasey-Ford (if you're interested but obviously this gets more political - so feel free to skip this one):
https://twitter.com/sannewman/status/1041709681989836801

let me know what you think
My only problem with the false reports is that the person is never charged. Even when we can prove someone lied they are NEVER charged. The States Attorney’s Office says it deters victims from making reports. No, I say it will deter false victims from making a report. Rape reports usually take a whole shift to complete, often times longer. If the call comes out at the end of your shift, that is hours of overtime. That prevents citizens from having an officer patrol their post. It prevents that officer from backing up another officer that may lead to them getting hurt. It backs up calls for service and response times. It requires a detective to work the case, preventing them from working on another case of a true victim. It ties up hospital emergency room beds, and causes other patients to wait longer. It ties up Evidence Control personnel and Lab Techs. Then we have to pay to dispose of the BioHazzard evidence collected. One false rape report could cause $100’s of dollars to the city. Now suppose a person was arrested. They could spend months in jail awaiting trial if they can’t make bail, lose their job because of it, spend $1,000’s of dollars on an attorney, have their life turned upside down and nothing happens to the person who lied. It just is not fair. Can you imagine if you were accused in Baltimore City and had to spend months in the hell that is The Central Booking and Intake Facility there, because someone lied on you and the State’s Attorney refused to charge the liar with false report? To put it in perspective, the first couple of days you will spend in a concrete 8x10 cell with about 10 other people in it, no beds (lights always on), one toilet probably no toilet paper, and don’t ask about the smell. Can you imagine the strain on your marriage?
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
My only problem with the false reports is that the person is never charged. Even when we can prove someone lied they are NEVER charged. The States Attorney’s Office says it deters victims from making reports. No, I say it will deter false victims from making a report. Rape reports usually take a whole shift to complete, often times longer. If the call comes out at the end of your shift, that is hours of overtime. That prevents citizens from having an officer patrol their post. It prevents that officer from backing up another officer that may lead to them getting hurt. It backs up calls for service and response times. It requires a detective to work the case, preventing them from working on another case of a true victim. It ties up hospital emergency room beds, and causes other patients to wait longer. It ties up Evidence Control personnel and Lab Techs. Then we have to pay to dispose of the BioHazzard evidence collected. One false rape report could cause $100’s of dollars to the city. Now suppose a person was arrested. They could spend months in jail awaiting trial if they can’t make bail, lose their job because of it, spend $1,000’s of dollars on an attorney, have their life turned upside down and nothing happens to the person who lied. It just is not fair. Can you imagine if you were accused in Baltimore City and had to spend months in the hell that is The Central Booking and Intake Facility there, because someone lied on you and the State’s Attorney refused to charge the liar with false report? To put it in perspective, the first couple of days you will spend in a concrete 8x10 cell with about 10 other people in it, no beds (lights always on), one toilet probably no toilet paper, and don’t ask about the smell. Can you imagine the strain on your marriage?

that is a bad situation to have happen obviously - i understand that the impact of a false report is incredibly large but i really think you are overestimating the prolificness of false reporting and underestimating the devastating impact of being a survivor (even if you do get justice - whatever that entails)

consider the alternative - which already happens - actual survivors (of whom there are exponentially more than false reporters) scared to come forwards and not reporting for a host of reasons including but not limited to:
- assuming no consequences will come to their attacker - or any consequences that do come will be minimal in comparison to the impact of their actions
- having their lives ruined by the consequences of coming forward
- not being believed
- being treated like a false accuser from the get-go
- being treated like a burden on society
- facing even greater consequences (including further violence) because of their report
- mistrust in the judicial system
- stigma

rapist_visualization_04.jpg


by posting this infographic im not belittling the very real and majorly life-changing consequences of being falsely accused of a sexual crime - im just putting into perspective that (at least in my opinion) the largest problem is not false accusations but that around 10% of rapes are even reported and of that large subset a minor percentage of rapists ever face real consequences for their actions that would keep survivors safe
 

cobrajet

Hall of Famer
that is a bad situation to have happen obviously - i understand that the impact of a false report is incredibly large but i really think you are overestimating the prolificness of false reporting and underestimating the devastating impact of being a survivor (even if you do get justice - whatever that entails)

consider the alternative - which already happens - actual survivors (of whom there are exponentially more than false reporters) scared to come forwards and not reporting for a host of reasons including but not limited to:
- assuming no consequences will come to their attacker - or any consequences that do come will be minimal in comparison to the impact of their actions
- having their lives ruined by the consequences of coming forward
- not being believed
- being treated like a false accuser from the get-go
- being treated like a burden on society
- facing even greater consequences (including further violence) because of their report
- mistrust in the judicial system
- stigma

rapist_visualization_04.jpg


by posting this infographic im not belittling the very real and majorly life-changing consequences of being falsely accused of a sexual crime - im just putting into perspective that (at least in my opinion) the largest problem is not false accusations but that around 10% of rapes are even reported and of that large subset a minor percentage of rapists ever face real consequences for their actions that would keep survivors safe
I wish all woman that were raped reported it. I tell you there is not much worse than a rapist or a child molester. I can also tell you that woman in Baltimore City get the royal treatment from us. We stay with them every step of the way, we open special family rooms at the hospitals for them, we get anyone they want there for them, and if they want to be left alone we run people away. We take them anywhere they want to go after everything is completed. I have personally spent my own time going to strange bars and hanging out because suspects I took special interest in arresting were supposed to hang there and I badly wanted to serve the warrant personally. I think it is such a shame when woman don’t report these assholes.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I wish all woman that were raped reported it. I tell you there is not much worse than a rapist or a child molester. I can also tell you that woman in Baltimore City get the royal treatment from us. We stay with them every step of the way, we open special family rooms at the hospitals for them, we get anyone they want there for them, and if they want to be left alone we run people away. We take them anywhere they want to go after everything is completed. I have personally spent my own time going to strange bars and hanging out because suspects I took special interest in arresting were supposed to hang there and I badly wanted to serve the warrant personally. I think it is such a shame when woman don’t report these assholes.

oh i agree and im not suggesting that they dont get the royal treatment
and i absolutely agree with you in wishing that all rapes were reported but I understand why survivors dont and until those issues are resolved (and one of the main ones being the fact that consistently discussions about false accusations take over the social narrative with regards to sexual crime) these issues of under reporting will permeate

there's an atmosphere and mistrust around reporting that needs to be obliterated and its continued existence is why slogans and campaigns like Believe Women are so important to changing the narrative around how we think about sexual crime accusations and the people who make them

on an individual level (in many cases) i absolutely believe that these survivors are treated fine and even well but the collective male-dominant culture that has existed since the beginning of societies has residual effects and has helped to create and maintain a rape culture that at its core unfortunately helps villainize survivors and protect their attackers - partly because of the power dynamic/disparity that is inherent in sexual crimes
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
that is a bad situation to have happen obviously - i understand that the impact of a false report is incredibly large but i really think you are overestimating the prolificness of false reporting and underestimating the devastating impact of being a survivor (even if you do get justice - whatever that entails)

consider the alternative - which already happens - actual survivors (of whom there are exponentially more than false reporters) scared to come forwards and not reporting for a host of reasons including but not limited to:
- assuming no consequences will come to their attacker - or any consequences that do come will be minimal in comparison to the impact of their actions
- having their lives ruined by the consequences of coming forward
- not being believed
- being treated like a false accuser from the get-go
- being treated like a burden on society
- facing even greater consequences (including further violence) because of their report
- mistrust in the judicial system
- stigma

rapist_visualization_04.jpg


by posting this infographic im not belittling the very real and majorly life-changing consequences of being falsely accused of a sexual crime - im just putting into perspective that (at least in my opinion) the largest problem is not false accusations but that around 10% of rapes are even reported and of that large subset a minor percentage of rapists ever face real consequences for their actions that would keep survivors safe

I took the time to do as much research as I could and checked out a lot of different sites and this graph is at the low end of the spectrum. Basically it seems like there is no way to come up with a clear cut answer to false rape allegations since the definition differs from one precinct to another. I do believe the number is way higher than you believe on reported (key word) allegations. I will agree that way too many legit ones are unreported which is just a damn shame.

See what you said is believe women no matter what. No you listen and investigate.

I
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I took the time to do as much research as I could and checked out a lot of different sites and this graph is at the low end of the spectrum. Basically it seems like there is no way to come up with a clear cut answer to false rape allegations since the definition differs from one precinct to another. I do believe the number is way higher than you believe on reported (key word) allegations. I will agree that way too many legit ones are unreported which is just a damn shame.

See what you said is believe women no matter what. No you listen and investigate.

I

where did i say "no matter what"...

but yes - everyone says innocent until proven guilty to defend attackers/alleged attackers but forget to allow that same idea for their accuser - the number of women who are treated like criminals by large facets of the public because of their accusations is staggering
 
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