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What Are Your Favorite TV Shows?

Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
About the only part of that episode I liked was Cleganebowl and Arya
The entire thing with the Hound and his brother fighting was really cool until the anti-climax of an ending.

The thing is they had a real opportunity to go out with a bang. And they blew it. This episode should have been a massive brawl, but it was a ridiculously one-sided affair. Which is.... boring
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
Night king: fight for 1 episode and killed, all prophecies hyped throughout the series from day one are tossed aside

Melisandre: extremely powerful and interesting character, becomes a matchstick and dies

Varys: the goddamn spider, what does he do? Goes directly to the honorable jon snow and says “you be king, dany bad”, no conspiring, no plotting, nothing. Killed immediately

Jaime: 8 years character development, he became an entirely new person, the best character on the show, bangs brienne and says loljk I’m a dick, goes and dies with Cersei for the lulz

Daenerys: 8 years being the breaker of chains and denouncing all tyranny, successfully takes Kings landing and forces a surrender within 10 minutes, the fight is over and she needs to go the throne and claim it, then becomes the vicious tyrant she always denounced and burns the entire city full of innocents to the ground. “I’m not my father” but then she is, for the lulz

The episode: the fight for kings landing, Daenerys, Jon, and Cersei’s fight, episode focused almost entirely on Arya and cleganebowl, why? Who the fuck knows.

D&D have seriously fucked this show into oblivion. I’m even ok with the direction if dany was always meant to be the mad queen, if she just snapped and became her father, fine, but why the focus on Arya in this massive turning point? She was irrelevant here, might as well have shown Sansa in winterfell fucking piddling with the lords over who gets how much wheat. Why jaimes character arc doing a complete reversal? Why is Varys doing some non Varys shit? Just stupid. This show went from game of thrones to middle aged Die Hard in one season.
 

Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
tenor.gif

UNEXPECTED JOEY MELTDOWN

@Dom McRaven @SepticeyePoe
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
it’s because GRRM gave D&D a conclusion to reach, and it was up to them to connect the dots and they’ve done a shit job at it because they would be better off directing cliche action thrillers than a sprawled out political drama like GOT

It's become like shit fan fiction since they ran out of books - for benioff and weiss it all seems to be about how can we "subvert expectations" the most as if that's what makes good storytelling - they're the showrunners on the biggest tv show of all time and yet they somehow evidently never actually understood what was interesting about their show...
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
The entire thing with the Hound and his brother fighting was really cool until the anti-climax of an ending.

The thing is they had a real opportunity to go out with a bang. And they blew it. This episode should have been a massive brawl, but it was a ridiculously one-sided affair. Which is.... boring

honestly i really wonder whether cleganebowl even happens if it doesnt become a meme - much like Jaime's character arc gets completely thrown aside for that cersei ending, all of the hound's arc in the show seems to have been cast aside just to make cleganebowl happen - it's a great meme but honestly the arc for his character was all about letting go of his vengefulness and becoming selfless and having those new qualities being tested would have been way more interesting - but his arc just disappeared in S8 to make cleganebowl happen - that's partly why it's such a let down of a fight - because you have to really squint to believe that the hound's real motivation for 8 seasons has been revenge when its clearly not been
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Night king: fight for 1 episode and killed, all prophecies hyped throughout the series from day one are tossed aside

Melisandre: extremely powerful and interesting character, becomes a matchstick and dies

Varys: the goddamn spider, what does he do? Goes directly to the honorable jon snow and says “you be king, dany bad”, no conspiring, no plotting, nothing. Killed immediately

Jaime: 8 years character development, he became an entirely new person, the best character on the show, bangs brienne and says loljk I’m a dick, goes and dies with Cersei for the lulz

Daenerys: 8 years being the breaker of chains and denouncing all tyranny, successfully takes Kings landing and forces a surrender within 10 minutes, the fight is over and she needs to go the throne and claim it, then becomes the vicious tyrant she always denounced and burns the entire city full of innocents to the ground. “I’m not my father” but then she is, for the lulz

The episode: the fight for kings landing, Daenerys, Jon, and Cersei’s fight, episode focused almost entirely on Arya and cleganebowl, why? Who the fuck knows.

D&D have seriously fucked this show into oblivion. I’m even ok with the direction if dany was always meant to be the mad queen, if she just snapped and became her father, fine, but why the focus on Arya in this massive turning point? She was irrelevant here, might as well have shown Sansa in winterfell fucking piddling with the lords over who gets how much wheat. Why jaimes character arc doing a complete reversal? Why is Varys doing some non Varys shit? Just stupid. This show went from game of thrones to middle aged Die Hard in one season.

i was fine with the knight king and melissandre stuff - that was just their arcs

but i 100% agree with you on the jaime stuff and how they tossed his arc away - i assumed it was a subversion where jaime was just acting like he'd relapsed to prevent brienne from following him to certain death knowing he'd have to kill cersei - i thought that would have been fine but for him to basically go back to cersei like that is unearned

the dany snapping stuff is a classic tv trope that's lazy and ridiculous and boring - and mostly not built up at all - it just suddenly turns up - she's had flashes of temper in the show before but she's never been unhinged - when she's been reckless or angry and unthinking it's always been for a reason where she is more inclined to take the more violent pathway but to go from that to mad king type stuff in the space of basically 4 episodes is pretty terrible writing and doesnt ring true to the character - and i think its pretty obvious it doesnt work as a character arc because as soon as that turn happens we never see Dany's face on screen for the rest of the episode - clearly the character twist doesnt work because they cant portray it with dany as an active participant in the forefront of your mind - if this snap had been foreshadowed or built into the show earlier on then this could have been a truly epic meltdown where you see her snap and enjoy the burning - but they've basically justified this switch happening within the space of 1 episode where she razes a city of innocent people out of grief (for a character who was fridged btw - another lazy and useless trope)

my guess on the arya stuff is that she's going to kill cersei - it's their way of setting up how dany has replaced cersei on her list or something like that - but its odd that we spent that crazy amount of time with her because we know she doesnt trust dany etc. and we can infer that she's hella pissed - the stuff we did need to see was the jon stuff and tbf we did at least get to see that

it really annoys me how many characters they've had to throw away the arcs for to get them to fit into these last few episodes and very specifically so many of them do stuff that is out of character and have massive personality changes in the space of maybe an episode (and in some cases literally scene to scene)...
 

redrum52

Hall of Famer
i was fine with the knight king and melissandre stuff - that was just their arcs

but i 100% agree with you on the jaime stuff and how they tossed his arc away - i assumed it was a subversion where jaime was just acting like he'd relapsed to prevent brienne from following him to certain death knowing he'd have to kill cersei - i thought that would have been fine but for him to basically go back to cersei like that is unearned

the dany snapping stuff is a classic tv trope that's lazy and ridiculous and boring - and mostly not built up at all - it just suddenly turns up - she's had flashes of temper in the show before but she's never been unhinged - when she's been reckless or angry and unthinking it's always been for a reason where she is more inclined to take the more violent pathway but to go from that to mad king type stuff in the space of basically 4 episodes is pretty terrible writing and doesnt ring true to the character - and i think its pretty obvious it doesnt work as a character arc because as soon as that turn happens we never see Dany's face on screen for the rest of the episode - clearly the character twist doesnt work because they cant portray it with dany as an active participant in the forefront of your mind - if this snap had been foreshadowed or built into the show earlier on then this could have been a truly epic meltdown where you see her snap and enjoy the burning - but they've basically justified this switch happening within the space of 1 episode where she razes a city of innocent people out of grief (for a character who was fridged btw - another lazy and useless trope)

my guess on the arya stuff is that she's going to kill cersei - it's their way of setting up how dany has replaced cersei on her list or something like that - but its odd that we spent that crazy amount of time with her because we know she doesnt trust dany etc. and we can infer that she's hella pissed - the stuff we did need to see was the jon stuff and tbf we did at least get to see that

it really annoys me how many characters they've had to throw away the arcs for to get them to fit into these last few episodes and very specifically so many of them do stuff that is out of character and have massive personality changes in the space of maybe an episode (and in some cases literally scene to scene)...

The Dany stuff had been there before. During one of takeovers she was ready to go full tyrant, but was talked down. The problem is along her way she's let this goal corrupt her and I can buy it. She feels like she's going to lose everything and has taken big losses recently. Down 2 dragons, 2 main advisors and Jon isn't cool with incest. She knows she'll be challenged as well with the info being out there now so she's broken. Hope Arya kills her and Jon takes control of Drogon even though he sucks with pets. My biggest beef is there aren't many characters I like now. Hated Sansa for a long time, but it's basically on her, Arya and Davos I mess with. Jon been acting like a bitch all season and realized it way too late.
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
The Dany stuff had been there before. During one of takeovers she was ready to go full tyrant, but was talked down. The problem is along her way she's let this goal corrupt her and I can buy it. She feels like she's going to lose everything and has taken big losses recently. Down 2 dragons, 2 main advisors and Jon isn't cool with incest. She knows she'll be challenged as well with the info being out there now so she's broken. Hope Arya kills her and Jon takes control of Drogon even though he sucks with pets. My biggest beef is there aren't many characters I like now. Hated Sansa for a long time, but it's basically on her, Arya and Davos I mess with. Jon been acting like a bitch all season and realized it way too late.
I don’t disagree with the dany turn entirely, but I disagree with how they got there. I think the whole idea is that every time she takes Tyrion’s advice he fails her, and his advice was to stand down when the bells rang because they’re surrendering, maybe she thought Tyrion was setting her up. But it still goes against her character. Yes, she has always had a brutal streak and her advisors always had to check her, yes she didn’t trust her advisors, but she was NEVER one to genocide innocent people for the fuck of it, no matter the circumstances. She wouldn’t show mercy to her opposition, she wouldn’t show mercy to those who betrayed her, rivals, enemies, whatever. She was brutal to slavers, high lords who wouldn’t bend the knee, but never to innocent civilians. This shit didn’t make sense.

But hey, get the shit over with so we can work on wack ass Star Wars eh?
 

redrum52

Hall of Famer
I don’t disagree with the dany turn entirely, but I disagree with how they got there. I think the whole idea is that every time she takes Tyrion’s advice he fails her, and his advice was to stand down when the bells rang because they’re surrendering, maybe she thought Tyrion was setting her up. But it still goes against her character. Yes, she has always had a brutal streak and her advisors always had to check her, yes she didn’t trust her advisors, but she was NEVER one to genocide innocent people for the fuck of it, no matter the circumstances. She wouldn’t show mercy to her opposition, she wouldn’t show mercy to those who betrayed her, rivals, enemies, whatever. She was brutal to slavers, high lords who wouldn’t bend the knee, but never to innocent civilians. This shit didn’t make sense.

But hey, get the shit over with so we can work on wack ass Star Wars eh?

Gotcha. Feel the same. Writing has been sloppy, but it's not just this season. I binged and around 5 or 6, I think, there was a noticeable change. Just drop this here...

 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
I was going to disappear for awhile, but I had to come back and give my thoughts on the episode...

1. In regards to Dany going mad... I don't think it was completely out of character. Despite what she's said, she's always had the anger inside of her and she's shown that when people have gotten in her path to the throne. The problem with the whole situation was that there was no valid reason for her to lose her shit other than the writers wanting her to be the mad queen. There was something missing there. There was no rationale. I fully expected Dany to lost it at some point, but they totally missed out on the why. I honestly can't come up with a valid reason as to why she lost her shit.

2. Euron was a fucking waste of a character. I never really liked him from the beginning, but he just didn't really advance the story much and his fight with Jamie was super cheesy.

3. Arya... I get why they chose to focus on her, but they could have toned it down. Clearly she's going to play a major part in the final episode, but there was so much else going on. They could have used a few minutes of her screen time to craft a reason for point 1 in this post, but instead, we got to see her run around for like 20 minutes. Not really sure why The Hound took her all the way to King's Landing in the first place just to tell her to get out. I know he's never controlled her, but it just seemed like a convenient way to put her in King's Landing during this siege rather than a good story.

4. Jon Snow... has he actually done anything worthwhile all season? Such a great character and they keep giving him a lot of screen time without much behind it.

5. In regards to Jon, I feel like they lost the Varys character a lot. I have no doubts his letters will surface and cause shit to go down next week, but Varys going to directly to Jon was the exact opposite of the Varys we had seen earlier in the series. He's a schemer and he would have made Jon think he was right for the throne without him knowing it - not just straight up telling him.

6. And the part that made me the angriest... Jamie and Cersei. First, as has already been mentioned, Jamie's redemption and arc over the series was completely thrown away and that angered me. But beyond that, that's how they die? Cersei has been the fucking villain for the entirety of this series and she gets the "happy" ending? Someone deserved to stick a knife in her or something, but instead, she meets the happiest end there could be in that situation.


All in all, I think the most disappointing part of this season is that it's missing a lot of what made GOT great in the first place - the unpredictability. There's no Red Wedding moments here. All of the main characters have had insane plot armor and it's become way too predictable. I know some will say that my expectations were too high, but they set that bar in the first place and they've failed to meet it. It's still good TV, but this entire season just feels way too rushed. So many chances to be better and they're focused on Hollywood effects instead of the story.
 

Taze

Practice Squad
I was going to disappear for awhile, but I had to come back and give my thoughts on the episode...

1. In regards to Dany going mad... I don't think it was completely out of character. Despite what she's said, she's always had the anger inside of her and she's shown that when people have gotten in her path to the throne. The problem with the whole situation was that there was no valid reason for her to lose her shit other than the writers wanting her to be the mad queen. There was something missing there. There was no rationale. I fully expected Dany to lost it at some point, but they totally missed out on the why. I honestly can't come up with a valid reason as to why she lost her shit.
They said once the bells rang that Dany still felt empty and alone sitting on her dragon, and that she'll always be a Targaryen. I get the first part, but her reaction to that being to kill all the innocent seems like a reach lol especially when she could've just gone for the red keep. I can buy that Dany goes mad, but they totally rushed it.

These least two episodes have been messy. I'm still hung up on the fact that Cersei didn't kill Dany and Tyrion last episode when she easily could have, but I agree with most how the characters arcs were disappointing this season. Having Jon be basically irrelevant is boring. I hate how arguably the two smartest people in the show, Tyrion and Varys, suddenly become two of the dumbest out of nowhere. Clegane bowl was awesome. Jamie randomly finding and killing Euron then going back to Cersei seemed incredibly forced though. Still a lot to appreciate about this season, but unfortunate all these characters went haywire,
 

redrum52

Hall of Famer
I read that they were given the option of 10 episodes by HBO and the team declined. Seems like they just want to be done with it.
 

Inqui

Pro Bowler
All in all, I think the most disappointing part of this season is that it's missing a lot of what made GOT great in the first place - the unpredictability. There's no Red Wedding moments here. All of the main characters have had insane plot armor and it's become way too predictable. I know some will say that my expectations were too high, but they set that bar in the first place and they've failed to meet it. It's still good TV, but this entire season just feels way too rushed. So many chances to be better and they're focused on Hollywood effects instead of the story.
I think GoT being as great as it has been was always a joint effort - and more of a two-way street than people have been making out. GRRM's work is obviously terrific and his characters are layered and the plot revolves around the choices those characters make in an extremely well developed world. But the guys who did the show are brilliant TV guys in their own right and they did a great job of bringing everything to life and honestly cutting through some of the more unwieldy parts of the books (and let's be honest, it's not secret I'm being polite here lol). I remember we talked about this back in like season 5 on the old forum, that the show didn't quite feel the same as it did in the first few seasons. The exact episode where that came up was the Battle of the Bastards, when Jon lifted his sword and ran straight into the Boltons' line and I never once felt like he was in any kind of danger. The plot armour has been pretty well covered - the crossbows going from elite to stormtrooper, the Winterfell battle deployments and general logical issues that really only make sense for the plot.

Overall not much has changed for my opinion of the show since those days. I've still got it in the same ball park as The Wire just behind Breaking Bad as my favourite. It's funny that back then people felt like I was underselling GoT but now I suspect they'll feel like I'm underselling The Wire haha. It's still very good TV and it's really not the trainwreck so many people seem to be making it out to be (then again there shouldn't be anything surprising about people on Twitter whinging about non-issues). But I do agree that it's gone from a very organic story where decisions and characters drive events to one where events drive characters and that's taken quite a bit of what made the story what it was. That said though, I have to wonder if the books will run into a fairly similar problem given GRRM knows how he wants it to end.

As to my thoughts on various parts of the episode (and season to date).

1. I'm not surprised to see Danaerys go Mad Queen in the slightest, considering they've been foreshadowing it for almost as long as the whole R+L=J thing. She was always a low-key pyromaniac and I've always wondered how a similar story from Aerys II's perspective would have played out (as viewers/readers we see her justify her decisions but I'm sure Aerys would have felt like he was justified with doing the horrible things he did). With that said I can agree with others that the whole thing felt a little rushed, considering even the Mad King took years to descend into madness and went through far more trauma than she did. All things considered it was probably as good as it could have been, but I think it's a bit of a microcosm of this season. Great ideas that end up being too rushed but making for good TV (for better and worse).

Also, something I found (mildly) funny. My flatmate's psychotic girlfriend (still can't believe he took her back after the saga I mentioned in the Dump Thread but I digress) went straight to rationalising Dany doing her thing - that she suffered trauma and it justified the decisions she made and so on. So I guess the GoT characters aren't yet full-blown tropes lol.

2. I've been going back and forth on the whole Cleganebowl thing. The Hound's arc was one of my favourites with the way he'd started to move on from all his hate and anger (I felt there was some symbolism to him dying in the wilderness), so in a sense it feels like they threw his arc away. But at the same time watching the fight it did feel like a fairly neat and fitting end for him. I also quietly liked the Frankenstein's monster shoutout.

3. Casting aside Jaime's arc was a big letdown though. The whole fight scene with Euron was a bit odd. But going back to Cersei to be with her and comfort her and stuff seemed to disregard how far apart the two were moving (another highlight of the whole story). Cersei not getting a cinematic death I can live with and I think the chalky feeling that leaves in your mouth was by design (how many terrible dictators die of old age). I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see GRRM do something similar in the books though. And an aside I'll say Lena Headey was brilliant.

4. Arya's story was actually pretty good I felt. The first thing I said after the episode was that she just added a name to her list, so I can understand the focus. But I think getting caught up with the people trying to escape the Red Keep is also a catalyst for rediscovering her human side after spending so long becoming an emotionless death machine.

5. I get the Jon arc, but I'll agree with everyone else who's said he's been up to fucks this season in particular. I get the idea of him being the better ruler, but he's been pretty mopey and one-dimensional in the show pretty much since season one. I'd be interested to see how it would have gone if the actors for him and Robb Stark had been switched because I think you could pass off Kit's sullenness as the whole weight of leadership thing. Had we not been told he was loved by everyone else there'd be no reason to get hyped about him.

6. I agree about Varys. I think they give him the Petyr Baelish treatment. They both ended up going pretty out of character for their deaths and neither really sat right with me. I still think the Martells (Oberyn aside) got screwed the hardest by the show though.

Despite the issues I have with the show though, I've still mostly enjoyed this season to date and I'm still looking forward to the finale. But it definitely changed once it switched from being a books and TV thing to just a TV thing and I guess the show is what it is at this point.

One last thought is actually a comment I came across. Someone said that Shakespeare was meant to be watched and ASOIAF was meant to be read - and that definitely stuck with me. It'll be a tragedy for sure if GRRM doesn't live long enough to get A Dream of Summer out and the best we end up with is Aristotle notes. But if that does happen, personally I'll still see the show as a big net positive (even the last seasons).
 

RL52TheGreatest

Ravens Ring of Honor
I read that they were given the option of 10 episodes by HBO and the team declined. Seems like they just want to be done with it.

I believe they were even offered additional seasons, if needed. D&D are clearly done with the show as evidenced by this hastily written garbage of a final season.
 

RL52TheGreatest

Ravens Ring of Honor
Here's some of my overall thoughts on season 8:

1. Dany going insane - If this was the end result for Dany then I don't really have a problem with it, but I do have a problem with having her go full-on Targaryen in just the matter of a few episodes. This is a character development that should have taken place over multiple seasons and hinted at her slowly becoming the "Mad Queen". Instead, we get a rushed final season in which she turns into a psycho over the course of a couple episodes and ruins all of her other character development from the previous seasons. Fucking wonderful.

2. Jaime going back to Cersei - WHAT. THE. FUCK. Jaime's arc was supposed to be about redemption and you have him go running back to Cersei again? As an aside note: Jaime is completely done with Cersei after "Feast for Crows" in the books and wants nothing more to do with her. I was holding out hope that he meant to go back to her in order to kill her himself, but D&D decided to ruin another character. FFS

3. Arya killing the Night King - I actually don't have a problem with Arya being the one to do this, however, this is another scenario in which I'm not happy how we got there. Obviously, the real villain on the show has always been Cersei, and now Dany I suppose, but the NK was hyped up to be an even bigger threat and barely does anything for the entire fucking episode. We don't even get to see him fight Jon because they make NK out as a bitch who has to have his wights do all the fighting for him (and the White Walkers too....they just fucking stood there all episode). ALSO, how the fuck does Arya sneak past all the wights and White Walkers to be able to reach the NK? I've heard numerous theories on this like she disguised herself as a White Walker, she's just really sneaky, etc. but we don't actually get to see how she accomplished this almost impossible feat. I'd also like to shout out the crazy plot armor in this episode (Sam gets fucking rescued how many times?) and how we could barely see half the fucking fight because of how goddamn dark everything was. Oh, and the Dothraki just rush into battle and die because reasons and to make the NK's army seem even deadlier? Okay....

4. Varys getting executed - One of the smartest, most calculating, persons in all of Westeros is going to get caught conspiring against Dany just like that? GTFO. Fucking trash and Varys deserved better.

5. Tyrion - He's basically been turned into a moron since he joined Dany's council. Another character that deserves far better (pretty much the theme for this season).

6. I didn't realize King's Landing could teleport to a fucking desert and even change positions on the map of Westeros. Between that, the Starbucks cup, and Jaime growing back his hand while hugging Cersei before they get crushed by rocks, is anyone even paying attention to these details anymore?

7. At least the acting has been excellent in spite of everything else. There's still been some really great scenes and that's largely because of the actors/actresses still giving it their all. The music has been top-notch as well, as it always has been.
 
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