For those who solely blame the defense...

Adreme said:

I am mixing in garbage and prevent time as a shorthand because typing "garbage time or when the defense is letting you convert 5-8 yards per play so long as you do not push it downfield" is too long to type 4 times a post. The Chiefs game I dismissed as Andrews being hurt, and maybe he still is, but that Hollywood connection has also gone very very cold. Even the short routes just do not seem to be there.

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I don't give a shit how you want to describe it. We had a chance in that game until the very end and even that 50 yarder at the end of the game. It's not like they were playing that defense any differently than they were all game long at that point. They were playing off coverage 10 to 11 yards off our receivers for the entire game so lets take away all 25 points. None of them should count

Goodell, please make a note of it in the stats book

That Snead td was garbage time. Every point "counted" against the Chiefs.

Adreme said:

If you put 2 top picks into WRs, 2 into TEs, 1 into QB, and 1 into a new RT I can expect the offense to actually move the ball outside of garbage time or prevent defenses. 10 points in 3 quarters will not cut it when you are facing a high-flying offense with 2 established WRs and a stud young QB; it just wont and the stat padding in garbage time to make the numbers look better did not change the fact that the numbers were bad. Similarly they were equally bad against the Chiefs before they started giving so much cushion because they did not care if the Ravens scored they just didnt want the Ravens to score quickly because they knew as long as that did not happen they could run out the game.

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Lol you really want to cling to that whole 10 points in 3 quarters thing. If you want to pick and choose which stats to use, then you can make the numbers say whatever you want.

Here is a fact for you, if the defense gives up 500 yards per game, it doesn't matter how good the offense is. And if you wanna throw a hissy fit over a bunch of rookies and second year players not being able to carry the team, you are more than welcome to. Just know that it is a really dumb take.

52520Andrew said:

Lol you really want to cling to that whole 10 points in 3 quarters thing. If you want to pick and choose which stats to use, then you can make the numbers say whatever you want.

Here is a fact for you, if the defense gives up 500 yards per game, it doesn't matter how good the offense is. And if you wanna throw a hissy fit over a bunch of rookies and second year players not being able to carry the team, you are more than welcome to. Just know that it is a really dumb take.

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I am annoyed by it because its 10-7 at half. 10-7. So as bad as the defense was in the first they only gave up 10 points and the offense left WAY more then that on the board. You have a veteran OLine and young weapons who are supposed to be great, you have a team that wants to be the number 1 offense in football so be the number 1 offense. A number 1 offense when the defense both its top run stuffer and a player who somehow has the power to make the secondary great by merely existing on the field (seriously every time Jimmy goes down this happens) the offense needs to step up and put up some production.

I focused on the points because that was what mattered. The offense did put together a nice drive early in the 4th but the Browns defense is not good, its not the kind of defense that should be shutting down the Ravens (neither should the Chiefs considering how bad they are against the run but one bad game @Chiefs is not a worry).

The offense has had 4 different games, a perfect one, a above average to good one, a below average one which looks okay statistically because 2 heaves went the right way (I have the replay saved and I STILL dont know how Snead caught that ball), and a bad one. The fact that they occurred in that order is the biggest concern of all. It was so weird to watch the quick version of the game because it highlighted how weird the offense looked. The defense looked poor most of the day and was narrowly holding on in the first half but the offense just kept just looking good for a few plays then just not.

btw, Lamar's long bomb that was intercepted wouldn't have counted if it was a touchdown because it was during garbage time. Also both of the interceptions during that time don't count either...

52520Andrew said:

Lol you really want to cling to that whole 10 points in 3 quarters thing. If you want to pick and choose which stats to use, then you can make the numbers say whatever you want.

Here is a fact for you, if the defense gives up 500 yards per game, it doesn't matter how good the offense is. And if you wanna throw a hissy fit over a bunch of rookies and second year players not being able to carry the team, you are more than welcome to. Just know that it is a really dumb take.

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Patriots won the Super Bowl, but it really shouldn't count because of the amount of points they scored. Throw that one away......

Tom Brady should also have atleast 50 to 70 games not count because of deflated footballs. Remember to take those wins off the total as well as all the td passes. Oh and lets not forget about all those video'd games.

52520Andrew said:

Lol you really want to cling to that whole 10 points in 3 quarters thing. If you want to pick and choose which stats to use, then you can make the numbers say whatever you want.

Here is a fact for you, if the defense gives up 500 yards per game, it doesn't matter how good the offense is. And if you wanna throw a hissy fit over a bunch of rookies and second year players not being able to carry the team, you are more than welcome to. Just know that it is a really dumb take.

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btw, I tried to give you 100 winner posts on this one, but I could only vote once.

Adreme said:

Expecting an offense to put up more then 20 points before garbage time is not poor expectations. On its face the past 3 games look okay 23,28,25 points respectively which are solid but unspectacular numbers but the actual in game story is far different. They got a free TD against Browns in garbage time and a prevent defense TD against Chiefs that they were happy to give away.

That Browns game to me just highlighted that the offense NEEDS to do more. I am not asking Lamar to carry the team. Moore should have caught that ball. If Moore catches that ball that is 3 points on the baord and if Lamar places it better (he had SO much room) its 7 but that was not the only mistake that half. If ONE of them doesnt happen the Ravens are up at half and the entire game feels far different. For all the talk of the defense being leaky, they gave up 10 in the first half and held ODB to I believe the worst game of his career. They struggled dealing with Landry and the run defense without BWill was as bad as expected but that bring it back to there are sometimes when you need the healthy unit to step and win the game and the offense could not do that.

This is not all on Lamar as he is not the only person playing. He is covering for pretty poor OLine play but that does not matter if the offense cannot put points on the board when it matters. The defense will be fine once BWill and Jimmy are back but until then if the Ravens are going to win games they need the offense to do what it showed it could do.

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Well there's no question the offense can make more plays.
My point is the exact same for both the Chiefs and Browns game... if we scored 40 points both games, we still have a 2-2 record heading into Pittsburgh. We're talking elite, top tier, stud offensive performances that translate into losses. That's how bad the defense was.
When we have games (and I'm sure there will be at least 1-2) when the defense gives up like 20-25 and generally play OK, and the offense fails to deliver, then we can talk about why the offense playing better is a priority.

Take the KC game for example... the offense did pretty much everything you would want them to do, except score more points. While I admit that's the crucial element, it can also be the most skewed element.
They won Time of Possession by over 5 minutes, which everybody would tell you is key against Pat Mahomes
They rushed for over 200 yards, and were efficient doing it (over 6 YPC)
They were respectable, not great, on third down (5/13)
They were great on 4th down (3/4)
They didn't turn the ball over
They were great at converting in the red zone (4/5)

Like if you give me those numbers every week, I don't even really need to see how many points they scored. The point will take care of themselves at that point. I know there's 4 TDs in there just based on red zone efficiency, and I would expect points allowed to be much lower, given the lack of turnovers and the TOP gap.

The Browns game was not similar, hence why I said a lot of this "the offense needs to do better" argument is limited to the Browns game.
Time of Possession was largely even, slightly favoring the Browns - bad sign #1
Rushing yardage was still there and efficiency was still there, but time of possession wasn't
Turned the ball over 3 times (yes the two INTs were late in the game with it pretty much "in-hand", but that's how you end up giving up 40 points to begin with, but the Ingram fumble was back breaking and arguably the biggest play of the game)
Were pretty average on 3rd down (4/10)
Only had two possessions in the red zone (1/2)

Like literally, you can take these 5-6 stats, and for the most part, figure out how our offense did, without even looking at the points.
Cardinals game:
Dominated TOP (by over 15 minutes)
Large rushing numbers and efficiency
Didn't turn the ball over
Respectable on third down (50%)
4 red zone trips (only converted one on this game, hence the lower point total than probably expected)

3/4 weeks the offense is largely doing what you expect of it. Cleveland game it didn't. But like KC, it wouldn't have mattered. If we scored more, they would have just scored more, because there was nothing we were doing defensively to stop it.

Our defense has given up over 1000 yards in 2 games. Sorry I just can’t see beyond that stat right now.

rmcjacket23 said:

Well there's no question the offense can make more plays.
My point is the exact same for both the Chiefs and Browns game... if we scored 40 points both games, we still have a 2-2 record heading into Pittsburgh. We're talking elite, top tier, stud offensive performances that translate into losses. That's how bad the defense was.
When we have games (and I'm sure there will be at least 1-2) when the defense gives up like 20-25 and generally play OK, and the offense fails to deliver, then we can talk about why the offense playing better is a priority.

Take the KC game for example... the offense did pretty much everything you would want them to do, except score more points. While I admit that's the crucial element, it can also be the most skewed element.
They won Time of Possession by over 5 minutes, which everybody would tell you is key against Pat Mahomes
They rushed for over 200 yards, and were efficient doing it (over 6 YPC)
They were respectable, not great, on third down (5/13)
They were great on 4th down (3/4)
They didn't turn the ball over
They were great at converting in the red zone (4/5)

Like if you give me those numbers every week, I don't even really need to see how many points they scored. The point will take care of themselves at that point. I know there's 4 TDs in there just based on red zone efficiency, and I would expect points allowed to be much lower, given the lack of turnovers and the TOP gap.

The Browns game was not similar, hence why I said a lot of this "the offense needs to do better" argument is limited to the Browns game.
Time of Possession was largely even, slightly favoring the Browns - bad sign #1
Rushing yardage was still there and efficiency was still there, but time of possession wasn't
Turned the ball over 3 times (yes the two INTs were late in the game with it pretty much "in-hand", but that's how you end up giving up 40 points to begin with, but the Ingram fumble was back breaking and arguably the biggest play of the game)
Were pretty average on 3rd down (4/10)
Only had two possessions in the red zone (1/2)

Like literally, you can take these 5-6 stats, and for the most part, figure out how our offense did, without even looking at the points.
Cardinals game:
Dominated TOP (by over 15 minutes)
Large rushing numbers and efficiency
Didn't turn the ball over
Respectable on third down (50%)
4 red zone trips (only converted one on this game, hence the lower point total than probably expected)

3/4 weeks the offense is largely doing what you expect of it. Cleveland game it didn't. But like KC, it wouldn't have mattered. If we scored more, they would have just scored more, because there was nothing we were doing defensively to stop it.

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one of the red zone trips we just ran the clock out and if we wanted, we could have score more (vs. the Cardinals)

Okay, I just want to throw this out here first and foremost- the Ravens defense played like absolute ass. I don't think they were helped by three turnovers and the failed fourth down in the second half (the Browns scored 30 points in the second half and "four" turnovers will help that a lot), but they were really bad either way. This Browns team was struggling mightily and it seemed like the Browns could freely and comfortably move the ball at will. I think the cracks showed some in Miami, but we wrote it off because the score was so lopsided, anyway, but the Cardinals and Chiefs showed these cracks might have been a larger issue. Cleveland just further confirmed that. A team isn't winning many games when the opponent scores 30 or more points- that's just a real statistic, and it only gets worse the higher above 30 you go.

Also, the offense being rated number one in yards and points is really being overrated here. Remember, the Ravens put up over 600 yards of offense and 59 points on the Dolphins and we've only had three other games to balance for that. Now, if we go by the other three games, the Ravens are still firmly top 5 in yardage and top 10 in points, but the Ravens offense isn't tops in the NFL. They're very good and I very much do think the offense can finish top 10 this year, but it's going to be an uphill battle. The Ravens have played the three worst teams, so far, in terms of yardage and two of the bottom four teams in terms of PPG. It's not getting any easier from here on out with teams like NE (I am terrified of this game), 49ers, Houston, Seahawks, and the Bills. The Browns aren't terrible, the Jets aren't terrible, and the Rams aren't terrible. It's going to start heating up for the team in terms of defensive strength.

With all of that said, Lamar hasn't been as good as needed the past two weeks. Against the Chiefs, Lamar was consistently under fire and heavily pressured, so I think that played into it, but he was frequently overshooting throws and throwing well over the heads of his receivers.

Against the Browns, it seems like Lamar got too conservative. He didn't really get pressured very often, so it's confusing that he didn't really seem to press the Browns defense more. A defense, might I remind you, that was missing their top two cornerbacks AND a starting safety. When Jimmy Smith is out, teams heavily pick on his backup. When any starting corner goes out, teams pick on the backup. That's just how it generally is. I don't get why the Ravens didn't test the Browns more frequently, especially when they seemed to want to go bombs away against the Chiefs.

I also saw a lot of people basically saying it was okay that Lamar threw an interception (or two) because by the time he threw the first, the game was out of reach. Well, I disagree- had the Ravens scored on that drive (a touchdown, that is), they're either down 8 (kicking the PAT) or 7 (if they go for two and make it). That's still very much in the game. Even rewind it a bit further, the Ravens had a four play drive where they turned the ball over on downs because Lamar made a poor throw. I don't know what exactly he was thinking, but Andrews was clearly thinking he was running a wheel route, and he had his man beat, but had Lamar been a little more patient, Hollywood was coming open across the formation and likely gets the first down on YAC.

But let's say the game was truly out of reach and the interceptions didn't matter- then, as others have said, the yardage doesn't matter, either. The touchdowns he scored don't matter. Does anyone know what his yardage was going into the fourth? It was under 100 yards, and I'm pretty sure it was 87 yards passing, not accounting for yardage lost due to a sack, which would take it closer to like 65 net passing yards. With a secondary that's missing three starters, is that what we'd call "good enough to win?" I mean, I wouldn't. And to be fair- Andrews dropped a pass and Chris Moore proved he doesn't have the situational awareness to be a receiver (side note: I think it was a bad throw- Moore was WIDE OPEN and putting it out in front of him likely leads to a touchdown or a large chunk of YAC. Why was the throw behind him?) I think Brown even had at least one drop?

So basically what I'm trying to say is: Everyone, even Lamar, deserves blame. The defense has been playing like ass, but "four" turnovers isn't going to help them at all. That's four extra chances for the opposing offense where you guaranteed didn't walk away with points on offense. The defense also didn't help by becoming a sieve in crunch time- how is an offense going to mount a comeback if you can't stop the opposing offense from scoring? The receivers were making critical mistakes with drops/poor awareness, but Lamar should have had better ball placement on a few throws and needed to take more chances and challenge a weakened defense.

And I want to be clear- I love Lamar and we've only seen 12 games of him as a starter. We've only seen four when he's had an offseason fully dedicated to him as a starter. I very much do expect to see long term improvement and growth. I think he can be one of the next generations quarterback stars. But I'm not going to sugarcoat a mediocre performance when he has one, like he did Sunday. I'm not putting the blame on him, but I'm not absolving him of blame, either.

The first interception, should have been DPI, without a doubt.
The pass to Moore, I agree it was off target a bit, but Moore didn't need to jump to get the pass and thus could have landed in bounds. Lamar also saw Moore late and that's a reason why it was off target, because he appeared to be rushing the throw as he was under pressure. I saw this game live and that's how I saw it. Moore lands inbounds and it's a td.

Everyone deserves blame as it's a team effort

RavensMania said:

The first interception, should have been DPI, without a doubt.
The pass to Moore, I agree it was off target a bit, but Moore didn't need to jump to get the pass and thus could have landed in bounds. Lamar also saw Moore late and that's a reason why it was off target, because he appeared to be rushing the throw as he was under pressure. I saw this game live and that's how I saw it. Moore lands inbounds and it's a td.

Everyone deserves blame as it's a team effort

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I agree it should have been DPI and I'm actually shocked the Ravens didn't challenge it.

Still an off target throw, no matter the reason, and that's something Lamar has to clean up. I'm confident he will, though.

29BmoreBird22 said:

I agree it should have been DPI and I'm actually shocked the Ravens didn't challenge it.

Still an off target throw, no matter the reason, and that's something Lamar has to clean up. I'm confident he will, though.

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I am as well. He's much better than I thought he would be this year. I knew he would improve, but not this much, this quickly. He will continue to improve throughout the season and into the future. I'm really not worried about playoffs, even though I think we can still win the division. I'm just enjoying watching Lamar and our young Offensive players improve.

RavensMania said:

I am as well. He's much better than I thought he would be this year. I knew he would improve, but not this much, this quickly. He will continue to improve throughout the season and into the future. I'm really not worried about playoffs, even though I think we can still win the division. I'm just enjoying watching Lamar and our young Offensive players improve.

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The one thing I can say I really love about Lamar that we just didn't see with Joe is the fire after a mistake. Lamar is pissed off, cussing, looking really angry. Joe just had a look of like, "Uhhhh, was that bad...?"

29BmoreBird22 said:

The one thing I can say I really love about Lamar that we just didn't see with Joe is the fire after a mistake. Lamar is pissed off, cussing, looking really angry. Joe just had a look of like, "Uhhhh, was that bad...?"

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He knew he missed Andrews on that wheel route on that fourth down as well and as you said, Hollywood was coming open also. Just a little more patience and he either hits Hollywood for a 1st down or Andrews for a TD. However, some people on this board, wouldn't count those points, because they were garbage time. smh

29BmoreBird22 said:

The one thing I can say I really love about Lamar that we just didn't see with Joe is the fire after a mistake. Lamar is pissed off, cussing, looking really angry. Joe just had a look of like, "Uhhhh, was that bad...?"

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I saw him slam his fist on a clipboard in the middle of that Patriots blowout when he missed a wide open Pitta in 2013...Outside of that and when he cussed out the Refs in 2010, I never saw any of that.

I didn't care much for it anyways, didn't stop him from winning a Super bowl.

OMG this thread.

First ... garbage time ...

Someone needs to define what garbage time means. IMO it is when there is ZERO chance of overcoming a deficit. That is not the same as desperation mode and taking risks to get back in s game. Therefore there was absolutely no point vs KC that was garbage time as one stop on D gives us the ball back down one score. Maybe the Snead TD in CLE? One score in 4 games? Shit then it’s not worth quantifying.

Please ...

Second .,. Stats focus to eval performance

Here’s the main point ... I don’t give a shit about these stats. Never have. Didn’t give a shit when people slighted Flacco over his lack of gaudy stats and don’t care about it for Lamar.

It’s about playing winning football. Offense made enough mistakes (most of them at the feet of players not named Lamar) to argue that there was no guarantee we get a win if the D played respectably.

However, the game the defense put out there was an EMBARRASSMENT. Anyone with one functioning eyeball could see that and only a fool who for some reason wants to poke at our QB would fail to acknowledge.

You want to discount stats for Lamar when we played Miami? Well you should discount stats put up by Baker and Chubb last week because our D played at Miami level of shit on Sunday.

If that continues we will lose more games than we win going forward. Yes draft capital has been expended but to expect a unit full of sophs and rooks to overcome that kind of performance by the defense is beyond stupid.

This is how I felt about our during the Cleveland game.