• Welcome to PurpleFlock! Be sure to sign up here so that you can chat with your fellow Ravens fans.

The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
No I mean tax cuts and deregulation. This graph below shows the car sales since I had to check. Its pretty topsy turvy anyway way its looked at so it looks like the trade war has done nothing. In a good economy people buy.

View attachment 1723

Also leaving the link

https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/total-vehicle-sales

If you believe in free trade then all tariffs should be eliminated. Correct. Trump wants absolutely no tariffs.

Im for tax cuts and deregulation, but tax cuts have to be paid for and balanced against spending.

Also Trump doesnt want zero tariffs, he could have negotiated free trade as our tariffs were equal to Chinas only last year. The presumed goal of the trade war is to encourage us to buy American and reduce Chinas trade concessions but the real reason is an attempt to force China to change its one sided industrial and economic policies.

What we're approaching now is a technology arms race to seize the global lead in hi-tech sectors for the 4th industrial revolution, our trade war has redoubled Chinas efforts to be less reliant on forced technological transfers.

This is before we even get into the new trillion dollar silk road or Chinas increasing global influence and seizing the south China sea.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Im for tax cuts and deregulation, but tax cuts have to be paid for and balanced against spending.

Also Trump doesnt want zero tariffs, he could have negotiated free trade as our tariffs were equal to Chinas only last year. The presumed goal of the trade war is to encourage us to buy American and reduce Chinas trade concessions but the real reason is an attempt to force China to change its one sided industrial and economic policies.

What we're approaching now is a technology arms race to seize the global lead in hi-tech sectors for the 4th industrial revolution, our trade war has redoubled Chinas efforts to be less reliant on forced technological transfers.

This is before we even get into the new trillion dollar silk road or Chinas increasing global influence and seizing the south China sea.

Our tariffs were equal????? Not even close. China was allowed to use higher tariffs when they first joined the WTO as a developing nation. Now they're the 2nd highest economy. Tbh the real reason is what you said and I've always thought. They're overmanufacturing with cheap labor and dumping product which caused things to be cheap cuz we was only tariffing their product at a 2.5% level. Btw our goods were taxed 25%. So basuically its easy to see it was killing our manufacturing since we're importing by a bunch more than we were exporting. To top it all off for an American company to do business in China they had to show them their intellectual intelligence which is greedy and stupid since basically they use that and just start up their own companies. All just to enter a market. Now a lot of companies have already or are in the process leaving China which shows its working. The tariffs Trump enacted are not only for the consumer but for our American businesses to compete not only here but globally. Now here's the big thing and Idk where you got your info from but Trump has said multiple times he wants tariff free trade and if China drops all tariffs we would do so likewise.
These tariffs are needed and even some dems agree (Schumer) for our long term outlook unless we want China to be #1.

Also as a sidenote China is not going to seize the South China sea. We have patrol ships out there with the backing of The Phillipines and other countries that surround this area.
 

gtalk12

Ravens Ring of Honor
Something should be said and done about the rich who play the system and avoid paying taxes, the right way.


This is something to be said. Continually giving tax cuts to the rich who are already playing the system is going to do what exactly? Make them want to play by the rules? Do we seriously believe that?


Tangent over
 
Our tariffs were equal????? Not even close. China was allowed to use higher tariffs when they first joined the WTO as a developing nation. Now they're the 2nd highest economy. Tbh the real reason is what you said and I've always thought. They're overmanufacturing with cheap labor and dumping product which caused things to be cheap cuz we was only tariffing their product at a 2.5% level. Btw our goods were taxed 25%. So basuically its easy to see it was killing our manufacturing since we're importing by a bunch more than we were exporting. To top it all off for an American company to do business in China they had to show them their intellectual intelligence which is greedy and stupid since basically they use that and just start up their own companies. All just to enter a market. Now a lot of companies have already or are in the process leaving China which shows its working. The tariffs Trump enacted are not only for the consumer but for our American businesses to compete not only here but globally. Now here's the big thing and Idk where you got your info from but Trump has said multiple times he wants tariff free trade and if China drops all tariffs we would do so likewise.
These tariffs are needed and even some dems agree (Schumer) for our long term outlook unless we want China to be #1.

Also as a sidenote China is not going to seize the South China sea. We have patrol ships out there with the backing of The Phillipines and other countries that surround this area.

The thing is if even if we removed all tariffs we still can't compete with Chinas manufacturing and cost advantage so it would essentially return to one way traffic. Strongarm tactics arent going to work in this case either since China has redoubled its efforts to become a self sufficient tech leader and streamline trade in Asia, Russia and Europe with its new Belt and Road initiative, theyre planning a future without our intellectual property and perhaps our business.

The good news is we can live without China as well, a lot of US customers simply switched manufacturing to Thailand, India or the middle east which havent been targeted by tariffs, that wasnt the original goal (of returning us back to a post war golden age) but life goes on and China doesnt get our intellectual property anymore.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Something should be said and done about the rich who play the system and avoid paying taxes, the right way.


This is something to be said. Continually giving tax cuts to the rich who are already playing the system is going to do what exactly? Make them want to play by the rules? Do we seriously believe that?


Tangent over

Flat tax. It can be tiered from 10 to 20% based on income. What do you think? Trump fixed some stuff but still too many loopholes ie giving to charity and being able to defer to the future. He did get the rich in the blue states (high tax most of them ) with the SALT which capped deductions at 10 grand. Now they moving to Fla and Texas

As for state tax that has to be left up to the individual state for instance if a state wants to lure a company like NYC had originally did with Amazon.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
The thing is if even if we removed all tariffs we still can't compete with Chinas manufacturing and cost advantage so it would essentially return to one way traffic. Strongarm tactics arent going to work in this case either since China has redoubled its efforts to become a self sufficient tech leader and streamline trade in Asia, Russia and Europe with its new Belt and Road initiative, theyre planning a future without our intellectual property and perhaps our business.

The good news is we can live without China as well, a lot of US customers simply switched manufacturing to Thailand, India or the middle east which havent been targeted by tariffs, that wasnt the original goal (of returning us back to a post war golden age) but life goes on and China doesnt get our intellectual property anymore.

You're absolutely correct about manufacturers moving to other countries but still the tariffs are hurting them cuz of things like this. I can also agree we could live without China and they could probally do so without us. The critical thing as I said before is we're becoming energy independent and things like reopening our steel mills which lets us become self sufficient and major exporters. Its just got be a fair deal which is what I like about Trump. He's not gonna just make a deal to just make one. I don't care what anybody says but we needed a business man in office. Not a career politician/lawyer.

On a sidenote I hope they are planning a future without us cuz I feel we are better at technology than them. So many other countries in that part of the world we can deal with.
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
Even if they impeach him, so what?
Impeaching him will be easier than levying a conviction, I'd imagine, just given the political parties who are the majority in the HoR and Senate, but impeachment at all could be damaging to his image in the upcoming elections, especially if it's for colluding with foreign governments.

I was actually reading somewhere that Trump potentially believes that he will be convicted of other crimes when he's out of office, so it's definitely in his best interest to try to stay in office as long as possible.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Even if they impeach him, so what?

Looks like the House is gonna spend its time only worrying about impeaching. Screw getting things done. I wonder when they gonna vote on the USMCA?? Ahhh there's other important things to do.

Impeaching him will be easier than levying a conviction, I'd imagine, just given the political parties who are the majority in the HoR and Senate, but impeachment at all could be damaging to his image in the upcoming elections, especially if it's for colluding with foreign governments.

I was actually reading somewhere that Trump potentially believes that he will be convicted of other crimes when he's out of office, so it's definitely in his best interest to try to stay in office as long as possible.

Its not real news when the words "potentially believes" are used. I hope that was an opinion piece. When it comes to collusion the facts will come out. It just might not be what you're hoping for.
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
Its not real news when the words "potentially believes" are used. I hope that was an opinion piece. When it comes to collusion the facts will come out. It just might not be what you're hoping for.
Potentially believes are my words because I can't confirm or deny what I read.
 

Inqui

Pro Bowler
Yeah, I'm still not getting why you believe these tariffs would benefit the consumer?
The argument is usually twofold. First is that tariffs create more benefits to the economy in terms of jobs and protected sectors than they cost (in terms of retaliation and higher prices). The problem is that if that actually held up for this current trade war, that would be the first time that's happened in history as far as I'm aware. There's a reason tariffs and other forms of protectionism went out of fashion in the 1930s. Already in this case, anecdotes about Apple are one thing but the ISM Manufacturing Index (which gauges manufacturing output) hit its lowest point since 2009 and the trade war is pretty much the reason for that.
https://www.investors.com/news/econ...index-10-year-low-china-trade-war-takes-toll/

The other argument is around the fact that the tariffs are levied against foreign companies explicitly. This is what makes them politically palatable (if Obama worked on a fiscally equivalent sales tax you'd never hear the end of the "rabble rabble socialism" talk from the right). The problem with this argument is that it misunderstands how tariffs work. The intention is to let domestic companies compete by raising their own prices to match the price of the good after the tariff. That does bolster the margins of domestic companies in the sector (albeit without having to do anything to earn those margins - which kinda flies in the face of free markets but I digress), but the extra margin is paid for by the end user. This means consumers end up having to pay the difference no matter where the good is from, but it also seems to ignore that a lot of consumers are businesses that use inputs. And if those businesses don't raise their own prices (again a bill getting footed by the consumer) they're taking a hit to their own bottom lines. Which is also no small part of why the S&P 500 hasn't budged since January 2018. It's the same argument that gets made when people talk about hiking the corporate tax: that companies will just raise their own prices.

TL;DR: Politics is almost entirely optics. And tariffs don't explicitly go after consumers so they look good and therefore play quite well politically (even if economically they tend to be a negative or at best a wash).
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
TL;DR: Politics is almost entirely optics. And tariffs don't explicitly go after consumers so they look good and therefore play quite well politically (even if economically they tend to be a negative or at best a wash).
Like I said, I was kinda waiting for him to reply before anything else, but this all explained it better than I could have. As you said, it's all optics. The consumer might not be footing the bill in the form of taxes or even knowingly paying for it, but the company is going to raise prices to make up for the hit to their profit because let's be real- no company ever wants to willingly lose money.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top