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The Random Thought Thread

allblackraven

Hall of Famer
This is interesting...

@JamesPalmerTV
29m29 minutes ago
More
The drop kick that the Ravens used against the Chiefs is illegal. The NFL looked at it and they said that it's not a drop kick. What Baltimore did is not considered a drop kick because you have to kick it simultaneously as it hits the ground.
Lol

Rule inventor obviously never tried to do that.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Lol

Rule inventor obviously never tried to do that.
I agree,

According to this, the rule requires kicking the ball "as, or immediately after, it touches the ground."

https://www.profootballhof.com/the-last-dropkick/

I suspect the ball bounced differently than Tucker expected and he just reacted instinctively to kick it as best he could, although maybe it was a planned intentional interpretation of "immediately after".
 

allblackraven

Hall of Famer
I agree,

According to this, the rule requires kicking the ball "as, or immediately after, it touches the ground."

https://www.profootballhof.com/the-last-dropkick/

I suspect the ball bounced differently than Tucker expected and he just reacted instinctively to kick it as best he could, although maybe it was a planned intentional interpretation of "immediately after".
This is how it's done:



I never tried it with football ball, only rugby and it's really difficult thing to do. Requires lot of practice.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
This is how it's done:



I never tried it with football ball, only rugby and it's really difficult thing to do. Requires lot of practice.


that's obviously a scoring drop goal - a better example would be a normal rugby restart

what's ironic is that in the nfl you're no longer allowed a run-up on the kick off but rugby has gone the other way, one of the international teams (australia) has adopted the bigger run-up to get players covering more ground quicker to get to the restart in the air

the onside kick is basically dead in the nfl at this point because of the lack of momentum allowed pre-kick

and sidenote - it doesnt sound like the sort of drop kick that we tried was even to be a type of onside kick - apparently it was to preserve the 2 minute warning as an extra time stoppage by forcing the receiver to fair catch the ball - albeit i dont know why we didnt just kick it through the back of the endzone (wouldnt that have had the same effect?)
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
that's obviously a scoring drop goal - a better example would be a normal rugby restart

what's ironic is that in the nfl you're no longer allowed a run-up on the kick off but rugby has gone the other way, one of the international teams (australia) has adopted the bigger run-up to get players covering more ground quicker to get to the restart in the air

the onside kick is basically dead in the nfl at this point because of the lack of momentum allowed pre-kick

and sidenote - it doesnt sound like the sort of drop kick that we tried was even to be a type of onside kick - apparently it was to preserve the 2 minute warning as an extra time stoppage by forcing the receiver to fair catch the ball - albeit i dont know why we didnt just kick it through the back of the endzone (wouldnt that have had the same effect?)
that and not being allowed to load up on one side of the kicker. A drop kick of some sort, with a bunch of practice, could work with a lot of practice.
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
So, I was discussing with someone on Reddit and the 88 yard touchdown to Mecole Hardman was originally blamed on Earl Thomas, but it was a Cover 3 Buzz and equal blame should be shared between Peanut and Jefferson- no surprise there, really, since both have been pretty atrocious this year.
 

allblackraven

Hall of Famer
that's obviously a scoring drop goal - a better example would be a normal rugby restart

what's ironic is that in the nfl you're no longer allowed a run-up on the kick off but rugby has gone the other way, one of the international teams (australia) has adopted the bigger run-up to get players covering more ground quicker to get to the restart in the air

the onside kick is basically dead in the nfl at this point because of the lack of momentum allowed pre-kick

and sidenote - it doesnt sound like the sort of drop kick that we tried was even to be a type of onside kick - apparently it was to preserve the 2 minute warning as an extra time stoppage by forcing the receiver to fair catch the ball - albeit i dont know why we didnt just kick it through the back of the endzone (wouldnt that have had the same effect?)
That's true but hard to find a video on youtube with the restart drop kick as a highlight ^_^

Re Tucker's kick - I think we chose that as opposed to "through the end zone" kick for two reasons - possibility ball doesn't actually go all the way and, more likely, slight chance of a returner dropping the ball and giving us a chance.
 

Tank

Hall of Famer
In American football you can drop a field goal or extra point, that’s why there’s a rule. It was never intended to be used as Tucker used it.
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
the onside kick is basically dead in the nfl at this point because of the lack of momentum allowed pre-kick

apparently it was to preserve the 2 minute warning as an extra time stoppage by forcing the receiver to fair catch the ball
Do you have a source for the second part? I'm talking to someone who truly believes this was an attempt to get the ball back on an onside kick, not force the 2 minute warning.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
TV Map this weekend
Do you have a source for the second part? I'm talking to someone who truly believes this was an attempt to get the ball back on an onside kick, not force the 2 minute warning.
I think it was used to force a fair catch, while having an opportunity to recover a fumble. This created the best opportunity.
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
TV Map this weekend

I think it was used to force a fair catch, while having an opportunity to recover a fumble. This created the best opportunity.
Yeah, I read a quote from Chris Horton that basically said they were hoping to recover, but it also was an opportunity to force the fair catch. I suppose their hope was put it high and wobbly and kick it toward the player who has never caught a football like that and hope he drops it- but that was largely a pipe dream.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Yeah, I read a quote from Chris Horton that basically said they were hoping to recover, but it also was an opportunity to force the fair catch. I suppose their hope was put it high and wobbly and kick it toward the player who has never caught a football like that and hope he drops it- but that was largely a pipe dream.
no question it was a prayer at that point.
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
Fun fact for those curious- to guarantee a boot out of the end zone, Tucker would need to kick it at least 75 yards, but definitely further to ensure that it goes over the head and firmly out of the end zone. For his career, Tucker's longest kickoff was... 74 yards.

And one thing to keep in mind with that 74 yard long- it'll cap itself at 75 yards on a normal kickoff, BUT if the kickoff is moved back, which I guarantee has happened at least one time in Tucker's career, then the kickoff will be a max length of the penalty yardage on top of the 75 yards that's standard, so this idea that Tucker can easily just boot it out of the end zone guaranteed seems shaky.

I'm in discussions now trying to explain to people how this works because people see that Tucker can force a lot of touchbacks, but fail to understand that a touchback doesn't always mean it went out of the back of the end zone on its own. Any return at all, even if the Chiefs only got to the 5 yard line, and the 2 minute warning is gone and that is not something the Ravens would have wanted to risk.
 
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RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Fun fact for those curious- to guarantee a boot out of the end zone, Tucker would need to kick it at least 75 yards, but definitely further to ensure that it goes over the head and firmly out of the end zone. For his career, Tucker's longest kickoff was... 74 yards.

And one thing to keep in mind with that 74 yard long- it'll cap itself at 75 yards on a normal kickoff, BUT if the kickoff is moved back, which I guarantee has happened at least one time in Tucker's career, then the kickoff will be a max length of the penalty yardage on top of the 75 yards that's standard, so this idea that Tucker can easily just boot it out of the end zone guaranteed seems shaky.

I'm in discussions now trying to explain to people how this works because people see that Tucker can force a lot of touchbacks, but fail to understand that a touchback doesn't always mean it went out of the back of the end zone on its own. Any return at all, even if the Chiefs only got to the 5 yard line, and the 2 minute warning is gone and that is not something the Ravens would have wanted to risk.
yep, if they run it out to the 5 yard line, then the Chiefs can essentially run out the clock. That being said, that's a huge risk, unless they just come out and kneel down. Again a risk we didn't want to take, hence the drop kick or whatever it was supposed to be.
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
yep, if they run it out to the 5 yard line, then the Chiefs can essentially run out the clock. That being said, that's a huge risk, unless they just come out and kneel down. Again a risk we didn't want to take, hence the drop kick or whatever it was supposed to be.
The person I was replying to was a known troll, but a few other people genuinely seem to think that Tucker is some god like figure that can do with the football what he wants.

Like I told them, I don't doubt Tucker's ability to put the ball into an unfavorable spot for a return in a normal circumstance, but I do feel hesitant with asking him to kick it out of the end zone or we essentially auto lose the game.

Side note: These people actually thought Tucker had a good drop kick and was really going for the onside kick. People are dense.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Fun fact for those curious- to guarantee a boot out of the end zone, Tucker would need to kick it at least 75 yards, but definitely further to ensure that it goes over the head and firmly out of the end zone. For his career, Tucker's longest kickoff was... 74 yards.

And one thing to keep in mind with that 74 yard long- it'll cap itself at 75 yards on a normal kickoff, BUT if the kickoff is moved back, which I guarantee has happened at least one time in Tucker's career, then the kickoff will be a max length of the penalty yardage on top of the 75 yards that's standard, so this idea that Tucker can easily just boot it out of the end zone guaranteed seems shaky.

I'm in discussions now trying to explain to people how this works because people see that Tucker can force a lot of touchbacks, but fail to understand that a touchback doesn't always mean it went out of the back of the end zone on its own. Any return at all, even if the Chiefs only got to the 5 yard line, and the 2 minute warning is gone and that is not something the Ravens would have wanted to risk.

not quibbling with the gist of the message
but how is tucker's longest kickoff only 74 yards if he's managed to kick the ball through the uprights off a kick off?
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
not quibbling with the gist of the message
but how is tucker's longest kickoff only 74 yards if he's managed to kick the ball through the uprights off a kick off?
Could have potentially been on one that was moved up due to penalty. I don't know. I'd be very curious to know this as well.

And I do want to clarify- I don't think 74 is a hard cap for Tucker- he hasn't gone further in the NFL according to the stats I looked at (could have been inaccurate), but I bet he is capable of going 75, 80 on a kickoff. Issue is can he do it with consistency?
 
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rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Could have potentially been on one that was moved up due to penalty. I don't know. I'd be very curious to know this as well.

except i know he's done it more than once - because remember they joked about how the team should get a point if the kicker gets it through the uprights off the kick off... it's something he's legitimately done a few times in his career and while not all of his kicks go beyond the back of the endzone, a lot do...

i wonder if 74 yards is the longest kick off that he had returned maybe...?
 

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
except i know he's done it more than once - because remember they joked about how the team should get a point if the kicker gets it through the uprights off the kick off... it's something he's legitimately done a few times in his career and while not all of his kicks go beyond the back of the endzone, a lot do...

i wonder if 74 yards is the longest kick off that he had returned maybe...?
Oh yeah- they did float that one, didn't they? I don't know that the Ravens were joking- I think they were genuine in wanting to propose that.

I don't know on the 74 yards. 74 yards still puts you at 109 yards, which is still returnable for the longest play the NFL allows. I remember it being a big thing about where Jacoby Jones foot was when he caught the ball in the Super Bowl for this very reason. So, I don't know. I just found it odd that 74 was the longest because he's had penalties that would have backed him up and allowed him to air it out more.

Here is the site I used: https://www.footballdb.com/stats/stats.html?mode=O

I edited my post just before you replied, but I should clarify- I don't doubt that Tucker can kick the ball 75, 80 yards. I definitely bet he can. But can he do it consistently? I don't know.
 

RL52TheGreatest

Ravens Ring of Honor
It's a shame that the NFL keeps changing the kickoff rules and has made it almost impossible now for teams to ever recover an onsides kick. We'll probably never see a moment like the Saints, in the SB against the Colts, again.
 
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