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2020 ILB Draft Thread

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
@rossihunter2
Thanks for the mention and for posting!
Im looking forward to watching him more to see if he is always using the RB as a key and not keying the line. It might explain some things we are seeing.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
@rossihunter2
Thanks for the mention and for posting!
Im looking forward to watching him more to see if he is always using the RB as a key and not keying the line. It might explain some things we are seeing.

That was a great spot - couldn’t help but think about that and his false steps and hesitation to shoot and take on blocks as a coaching issue rather than a prospect issue - he’s just so incredibly dynamic in the other facets of the game that it’s hard to rationalise the way he plays the run with the rest of him as a prospect
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
I have a lot of concerns with Kenneth Murray and I’ve been very vocal about them, but man he really does play at a different speed than everyone else, physically and mentally. I have very legitimate problems with him but the more I watch him, the more I’d just say fck it and take the good with the bad if we drafted him.

I do imagine he will be taken for a ride more than a few times in the nfl with those high tackles, but man he’s gonna make some plays too.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I have a lot of concerns with Kenneth Murray and I’ve been very vocal about them, but man he really does play at a different speed than everyone else, physically and mentally. I have very legitimate problems with him but the more I watch him, the more I’d just say fck it and take the good with the bad if we drafted him.

I do imagine he will be taken for a ride more than a few times in the nfl with those high tackles, but man he’s gonna make some plays too.

that's kind of where ive been at the whole time - he makes everyone else look like they're in slo-mo and i really think a lot of the issues in his game are coachable - the hesitation in hitting the hole and attacking in the running game is something that Wink etc. would coach right out of him and create better instincts - obviously tackling is an issue if you're going to high all the time and its harder to teach tackling because of the contact rules in the CBA but with the new rules about how to hit in the NFL it incentivises going lower or going after the ball rather than trying to lay a big hit and those techniques are definitely coachable whereas the whole matt elam issue with no wrapping and not keeping his head up when he hits is a much harder habit to coach out

i just think having that sort of athleticism in the middle of this defence would be a game-changer - there's a habit we often get into when trying to evaluate these players that we're worrying about what they might not be able to do (i was guilty of that with dk metcalf last year) rather than what they can and will do to add value to your team and at the 28th pick i can foresee a situation where he adds the most value to our team of any of the players left on the board
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
that's kind of where ive been at the whole time - he makes everyone else look like they're in slo-mo and i really think a lot of the issues in his game are coachable - the hesitation in hitting the hole and attacking in the running game is something that Wink etc. would coach right out of him and create better instincts - obviously tackling is an issue if you're going to high all the time and its harder to teach tackling because of the contact rules in the CBA but with the new rules about how to hit in the NFL it incentivises going lower or going after the ball rather than trying to lay a big hit and those techniques are definitely coachable whereas the whole matt elam issue with no wrapping and not keeping his head up when he hits is a much harder habit to coach out

i just think having that sort of athleticism in the middle of this defence would be a game-changer - there's a habit we often get into when trying to evaluate these players that we're worrying about what they might not be able to do (i was guilty of that with dk metcalf last year) rather than what they can and will do to add value to your team and at the 28th pick i can foresee a situation where he adds the most value to our team of any of the players left on the board
I know what you’re saying about worrying more about what a player can’t do than seeing what they can do, but I don’t think I have a big problem with that, my issue with what I see from Murray isn’t that he can’t do certain things and isn’t complete enough, it’s that he has a fatal flaw for his position. Can’t have LBs that will get dragged, can’t have receivers that drop routine balls, can’t have RBs that fumble often, that kind of thing.

but if it can be improved, not even eliminated, just improved upon, then he could be a big time player for us. He looks like the absolute best of onwuasor, but with legitimate mental processing.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I know what you’re saying about worrying more about what a player can’t do than seeing what they can do, but I don’t think I have a big problem with that, my issue with what I see from Murray isn’t that he can’t do certain things and isn’t complete enough, it’s that he has a fatal flaw for his position. Can’t have LBs that will get dragged, can’t have receivers that drop routine balls, can’t have RBs that fumble often, that kind of thing.

but if it can be improved, not even eliminated, just improved upon, then he could be a big time player for us. He looks like the absolute best of onwuasor, but with legitimate mental processing.

i just think that of those 3 issues (high tackling, dropped balls and fumbles) only really the drops are proven to carry over consistently to the nfl - even fumbles dont really translate (unless its really bad) - in terms of tackling etc. i really do think that's something that can be fixed and with the way he attacks anything that's not an inside run he normally has the velocity to not be taken for the ride as long as he gets his head to hip level - he clearly likes to go with his hands first which is why he ends up high which is why he gets dragged - he just needs to make sure he gets cheek to cheek when he's tackling - obviously its not simple to change a habit but its not something that isnt fixable - with the new player-safety rules in the NFL, tackling is becoming more and more like rugby all the time where you keep your head up, go cheek to cheek and drive the legs through and its a skill that in rugby gets developed all the time so there's nothing that really tells me he cant get better at it

im more worried about him reading in the running game than his tackling because he's not relying on the big hit in college, he's relying on his arms
 

Grim

Ravens Ring of Honor
I have a lot of concerns with Kenneth Murray and I’ve been very vocal about them, but man he really does play at a different speed than everyone else, physically and mentally. I have very legitimate problems with him but the more I watch him, the more I’d just say fck it and take the good with the bad if we drafted him.

I do imagine he will be taken for a ride more than a few times in the nfl with those high tackles, but man he’s gonna make some plays too.
that's kind of where ive been at the whole time - he makes everyone else look like they're in slo-mo and i really think a lot of the issues in his game are coachable - the hesitation in hitting the hole and attacking in the running game is something that Wink etc. would coach right out of him and create better instincts - obviously tackling is an issue if you're going to high all the time and its harder to teach tackling because of the contact rules in the CBA but with the new rules about how to hit in the NFL it incentivises going lower or going after the ball rather than trying to lay a big hit and those techniques are definitely coachable whereas the whole matt elam issue with no wrapping and not keeping his head up when he hits is a much harder habit to coach out

i just think having that sort of athleticism in the middle of this defence would be a game-changer - there's a habit we often get into when trying to evaluate these players that we're worrying about what they might not be able to do (i was guilty of that with dk metcalf last year) rather than what they can and will do to add value to your team and at the 28th pick i can foresee a situation where he adds the most value to our team of any of the players left on the board
I know what you’re saying about worrying more about what a player can’t do than seeing what they can do, but I don’t think I have a big problem with that, my issue with what I see from Murray isn’t that he can’t do certain things and isn’t complete enough, it’s that he has a fatal flaw for his position. Can’t have LBs that will get dragged, can’t have receivers that drop routine balls, can’t have RBs that fumble often, that kind of thing.

but if it can be improved, not even eliminated, just improved upon, then he could be a big time player for us. He looks like the absolute best of onwuasor, but with legitimate mental processing.
i just think that of those 3 issues (high tackling, dropped balls and fumbles) only really the drops are proven to carry over consistently to the nfl - even fumbles dont really translate (unless its really bad) - in terms of tackling etc. i really do think that's something that can be fixed and with the way he attacks anything that's not an inside run he normally has the velocity to not be taken for the ride as long as he gets his head to hip level - he clearly likes to go with his hands first which is why he ends up high which is why he gets dragged - he just needs to make sure he gets cheek to cheek when he's tackling - obviously its not simple to change a habit but its not something that isnt fixable - with the new player-safety rules in the NFL, tackling is becoming more and more like rugby all the time where you keep your head up, go cheek to cheek and drive the legs through and its a skill that in rugby gets developed all the time so there's nothing that really tells me he cant get better at it

im more worried about him reading in the running game than his tackling because he's not relying on the big hit in college, he's relying on his arms
I may have to change my tune on Murray. I’ve watched some of his games more than his highlights and the championship games and I was a bit underwhelmed. I see some of the issues people mentioned and may have to agree with @Sami84 & @allblackraven in that I don’t think I’d take him in the first at all. He’s a low end 2nd round pick who I may drop due to talent at other positions reducing his value. He has phenomenal athleticism but so did Perriman. As for tackling being something that can be fixed, let’s ask Matt Elam that question. This guy reminds me a lot of Elam in that the the tackling could continue to be a problem.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
As for tackling being something that can be fixed, let’s ask Matt Elam that question. This guy reminds me a lot of Elam in that the the tackling could continue to be a problem.

i guess i just see their tackling issues as completely different to each other - matt elam was a missile with the heat-seeker turned off whereas i see murray as just needing to lower his strikezone sometimes and to drive through the tackle at the contact point which i see as way more coachable than learning a completely new technique (i use the word technique ironically with regards to elam)
 

Grim

Ravens Ring of Honor
i guess i just see their tackling issues as completely different to each other - matt elam was a missile with the heat-seeker turned off whereas i see murray as just needing to lower his strikezone sometimes and to drive through the tackle at the contact point which i see as way more coachable than learning a completely new technique (i use the word technique ironically with regards to elam)
Good thing is smarter people than [hopefully] both of us will be deciding whether this is fixable or not. I’ll trust our coaches to make the right decision either way. To say I’m not concerned is an understatement, but I’m sure every prospect has major concerns and even those without major concerns bust. I’d support the player if we drafted him and could see a reason to have him here; however, I’m not as much on board with him as I initially was.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Good thing is smarter people than [hopefully] both of us will be deciding whether this is fixable or not. I’ll trust our coaches to make the right decision either way. To say I’m not concerned is an understatement, but I’m sure every prospect has major concerns and even those without major concerns bust. I’d support the player if we drafted him and could see a reason to have him here; however, I’m not as much on board with him as I initially was.

absolutely fair enough - and you're absolutely right about smarter people lol - im not saying he's a slam-dunk either - just that i would be excited (as of now) to have him on our team and that the tackling specifically isnt a major concern for me given what ive seen so far on tape
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
I may have to change my tune on Murray. I’ve watched some of his games more than his highlights and the championship games and I was a bit underwhelmed. I see some of the issues people mentioned and may have to agree with @Sami84 & @allblackraven in that I don’t think I’d take him in the first at all. He’s a low end 2nd round pick who I may drop due to talent at other positions reducing his value. He has phenomenal athleticism but so did Perriman. As for tackling being something that can be fixed, let’s ask Matt Elam that question. This guy reminds me a lot of Elam in that the the tackling could continue to be a problem.
Eh I wouldn’t compare Elam and Murray’s tackling. I still worry that the tackling is a fatal flaw, but in hindsight, Elam should’ve been undrafted, his tackling was way more suspect, Murray at least sees his target and wraps with authority, he’s just too high. Elam was all shoulders and head down, he had zero form.
 

Grim

Ravens Ring of Honor
absolutely fair enough - and you're absolutely right about smarter people lol - im not saying he's a slam-dunk either - just that i would be excited (as of now) to have him on our team and that the tackling specifically isnt a major concern for me given what ive seen so far on tape
I’d probably feel the same way if we drafted him to be honest. I’ll try to overlook those flaws and expect the coaches to fix it. That said, I don’t know if it can be fixed but that’s why those guys get paid. I trust our team until proven otherwise with prospects. It’s why I rarely criticize draft picks except for Correa, whom I really didn’t like nor get.
Eh I wouldn’t compare Elam and Murray’s tackling. I still worry that the tackling is a fatal flaw, but in hindsight, Elam should’ve been undrafted, his tackling was way more suspect, Murray at least sees his target and wraps with authority, he’s just too high. Elam was all shoulders and head down, he had zero form.
Oh I know. Elam was a missile and Murray at least wraps up with high form. That said, I also don’t know if that’s correctable. Is there a precedence of this in the NFL where specifically a linebacker whose job is to tackle guys came in with these really high tackles and fixed their issue? Asking honesty not rhetorically.
 

cdp

Ravens Ring of Honor
I’d probably feel the same way if we drafted him to be honest. I’ll try to overlook those flaws and expect the coaches to fix it. That said, I don’t know if it can be fixed but that’s why those guys get paid. I trust our team until proven otherwise with prospects. It’s why I rarely criticize draft picks except for Correa, whom I really didn’t like nor get.

Oh I know. Elam was a missile and Murray at least wraps up with high form. That said, I also don’t know if that’s correctable. Is there a precedence of this in the NFL where specifically a linebacker whose job is to tackle guys came in with these really high tackles and fixed their issue? Asking honesty not rhetorically.
I think in this day and age it doesn't really make sense anymore to draft (off-ball) linebackers in the 1st round. I just don't see the value, unless it's a generational talent like Kuechly. Our scouting has a great eye to find udfas, if we were really trying to invest then I'd say 3rd round is the earliest.
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
I think in this day and age it doesn't really make sense anymore to draft (off-ball) linebackers in the 1st round. I just don't see the value, unless it's a generational talent like Kuechly. Our scouting has a great eye to find udfas, if we were really trying to invest then I'd say 3rd round is the earliest.
I disagree. When so much of the nfl is about timing, and catching short and running long, you need guys right there in the middle of the action that can hang, you need someone who can read a qbs eyes and pick up on timing and what offenses are trying to do when they cross your face, you wanna knock timing off, you wanna sniff out those screens that they use to nullify your secondary and pass rush.

if the niners didn’t have Fred Warner, their defense would still be excellent, but they would take a pretty sizeable step down, because that aspect of speed and run stuffing from the MLB spot adds a whole extra dimension.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
I’d probably feel the same way if we drafted him to be honest. I’ll try to overlook those flaws and expect the coaches to fix it. That said, I don’t know if it can be fixed but that’s why those guys get paid. I trust our team until proven otherwise with prospects. It’s why I rarely criticize draft picks except for Correa, whom I really didn’t like nor get.

Oh I know. Elam was a missile and Murray at least wraps up with high form. That said, I also don’t know if that’s correctable. Is there a precedence of this in the NFL where specifically a linebacker whose job is to tackle guys came in with these really high tackles and fixed their issue? Asking honesty not rhetorically.
Not to get off point, but I have a question regarding Elam, since I wasn't a Raven fan during 2013 offseason, but I recall Elam having a decent season in year one. Isn't this correct?
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Not to get off point, but I have a question regarding Elam, since I wasn't a Raven fan during 2013 offseason, but I recall Elam having a decent season in year one. Isn't this correct?

he played a lot of nickel along with safety that year but he didnt actually win the starting job - he lost it in training camp to michael huff who was so bad he lost it in the first game of the year - he ended up starting there by default basically because there was no one else to play
 

Grim

Ravens Ring of Honor
I think in this day and age it doesn't really make sense anymore to draft (off-ball) linebackers in the 1st round. I just don't see the value, unless it's a generational talent like Kuechly. Our scouting has a great eye to find udfas, if we were really trying to invest then I'd say 3rd round is the earliest.
I’d agree to an extent. I think you still need very strong off-ball LB play to stop these TE and receiving RB. I think you also need one to stop these more mobile QB. I also believe investing a top-10 pick into one is just questionable unless they’re a special talent. Devin White was a first round pick for me and I think he was worth it even if he isn’t a generational talent like Kuechly. Bobby Wagner was a 2nd round pick. He’s crucial to their defense too.
I disagree. When so much of the nfl is about timing, and catching short and running long, you need guys right there in the middle of the action that can hang, you need someone who can read a qbs eyes and pick up on timing and what offenses are trying to do when they cross your face, you wanna knock timing off, you wanna sniff out those screens that they use to nullify your secondary and pass rush.

if the niners didn’t have Fred Warner, their defense would still be excellent, but they would take a pretty sizeable step down, because that aspect of speed and run stuffing from the MLB spot adds a whole extra dimension.
The only thing is Warner proves you don’t need to invest a top pick into an off-ball LB. I agree with his premise of not throwing a high pick on a LB unless they’re very clearly elite; however, I do disagree with the notion of ignoring the position until UDFA. He did say to wait until the 3rd and he’s not necessarily wrong.
Not to get off point, but I have a question regarding Elam, since I wasn't a Raven fan during 2013 offseason, but I recall Elam having a decent season in year one. Isn't this correct?
Rossi answered this but he didn’t start initially but had to when Huff was Terri-bad. He was decent only in that he wasn’t asked to do much. He had some highlight plays that made you think he could put it together but it was all fool’s gold.
he played a lot of nickel along with safety that year but he didnt actually win the starting job - he lost it in training camp to michael huff who was so bad he lost it in the first game of the year - he ended up starting there by default basically because there was no one else to play
He had a couple highlights but yeah he sucked. Arthur Brown, my man-crush that year, was even worse. If I’m being honest, Brown was worse than Elam and that’s saying something.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
He had a couple highlights but yeah he sucked. Arthur Brown, my man-crush that year, was even worse. If I’m being honest, Brown was worse than Elam and that’s saying something.

that 2013 draft class ironically was what made me get into the draft - ive been hella into it and doing my own scouting etc (and getting better every year) since the 2014 class which was really my first proper draft where i actually understood everything

and it only happened because arthur brown and matt elam flamed out

we have 1 guy left on the roster from that draft - brandon williams
we have 3 guys who contributed to comp picks when they left - rick wagner, ryan jensen and kyle juscyzk
we had 1 guy who's gone on to be a successful player elsewhere - john simon
we had 2 notable udfas from that rookie class - marlon brown (who still is tied in first place for franchise rookie td record lol) and brynden trawick

imagine how good that draft would have been in hindsight if we'd nailed even one of the first 2 picks (or even just got a solid starter out of one of them)

with all the 1st round busts we've had as a franchise, it's still amazing that somehow arthur brown might have been the worst draft selection in franchise history - like he's in that conversation which is crazy for a 2nd round pick who didnt shame the franchise in any way off the field
 
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