The Random Thought Thread

BloodRaven said:

I just don't like LeBrons player mindset, I kind of expect players in the GOAT rankings to have a killer mentality like Jordan and Kobe and to me LeBron is a mental midget like Kevin Durant. It always made me cringe that he would name himself King and chosen one and the GOAT then admit that hes scared of losing and take winning shots, or that he would rather join All Stars rather than beat them.

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I mean... a bit overblown though.

Kobe couldn't win a championship without pairing up with at least one All Star... neither could Jordan.

Kobe was winning championships with Shaq and Pau Gasol, both of which were better at that time than the likes of Wade and Bosh were when LeBron was in Miami.

The truth is you can go back decades and you won't find teams that didn't have a collection of All-Stars on it winning.

Plus, fans brought this on themselves. We spend decades criticizing individual players in team sports for not winning championships, and then when they stack the deck to make sure they do, we criticize them for that too.

Can't have it both ways.

rmcjacket23 said:

I mean... a bit overblown though.

Kobe couldn't win a championship without pairing up with at least one All Star... neither could Jordan.

Kobe was winning championships with Shaq and Pau Gasol, both of which were better at that time than the likes of Wade and Bosh were when LeBron was in Miami.

The truth is you can go back decades and you won't find teams that didn't have a collection of All-Stars on it winning.

Plus, fans brought this on themselves. We spend decades criticizing individual players in team sports for not winning championships, and then when they stack the deck to make sure they do, we criticize them for that too.

Can't have it both ways.

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yep, it's a team sport and one goat isn't going to do it without a collection of really good players surrounding them. I'm not taking anything away from the GOAT's, but one player doesn't win a championship.

BloodRaven said:

1 MJ
2 Kareem
3 Kobe
4 LeBron
5 Magic

1 and 2 are set. 3-5 is fluid but I rank Kobes mental dominance of the modern game very highly. LeBron is a physical specimen and unrivalled stat machine. Magic and Bird are very close for me, Bird gets a knock for lack of athleticism on the defensive end.

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are we talking about the greatest or BEST. Greatest is MJ, no doubt...
but the best are the following ( im doing 1980- now)

1: Larry Bird ( 1984-1987 larry bird was the perfect player, don't let his lack of athletic ability fool you, his D was solid and he had no weakness, 90% free throw shooter, 42% 3pt shooter, 53 FG% 11 boards, 2 steals 6.8 assists and 1.2 blocks per game) His defensive win shares are AHEAD of lebron

2 Lebron ( If he could shoot the 3 at 36 % upwards and Free throws at 78% Upwards he'd be the GOAT no questions asked but his shooting has let him down)

3:Tim Duncan ( the most boring but effective player ever)

4: MJ ( didn't beat anyone of note in the 90's, weaker collective teams compared to the 80's, he is the GREATEST player ever though( as it pertains to legacy and the best SG ever) but I don't think he's sniffing 6 rings in the 90's if he had prime 80's celtics, showtime lakers and bad Boy pistons in their prime during this period, maybe 1 or 3 MAX)

5: Magic
6: Hakeem Olajuowan
7: Karl Malone
8: KAJ
9: Shaq
10: Moses Malone
11: Kobe Bryant
12: Stephen Curry
13: Dirk Nowitzki -( He made dallas a top 3 team in the best western conference era EVER with far less talent around him than other elite teams)
14: Kevin Durant ( his championships will always have that caveat to me)
15a: Dwayne Wade ( at his peak I'd have him right there with kobe but it was a very short peak)
15b Grant Hill ( yes, he was that good in his peak)
- Kawai Leonard
16: Isaiah Thomas
17: Gary Payton
18: John Stockton
19: Steve Nash
Bill Walton ( taking into account his 1976-1978 years)
20: Jason Kidd
21:George Gervin
22:Kevin Garnett
23: Charles Barkley
24: Julius Erving
25: Kevin McHale
26: David Robinson
27: Patrick Ewing
Giannis
28: Clyde Drexler
29: Allen Iverson
30: Paul Pierce
31: Reggie Miller
32: Scottie Pippen
33: Sidney Moncrief
34: Tracy McGrady ( overrated and inefficient during his glory years at orlando, average to below average shooter)
35: Patrick Ewing
36: Dwight Howard
37: Yao Ming
- James Harden
38: Anthony Davis
- Dominique Wilkins
39: Ray Allen
-Carmelo Anthony
40: Alex English
41: Adrien Dantley
42: Manu Ginobili
43: Chris Webber
- Bob lanier
44: Alonzo Mourning
- Chris Bosh
45: Tony Parker
- Chris Paul
46: Klay Thompson
- Artis Gilmore
- Chris Mullen
- Pau Gasol
47: Robert Parish
- Penny Hardaway ( a little overrated even pre injury)
-Bernard King
48: Vince Carter
- Damien Lillard
49: Peja Stoiakovic
- Adryvious Sabonis
-L' Marcus Aldridge
50: Ben Wallace
51: Denis Rodman
- Larry Johnson
52: Bill Laimbeer
53: Chanucey Billups
54: Amare Stoudamire
- Blake Griffin
- Shawn Kemp
-Joe Dumars
-Andrew Toney
55: Rasheed Wallace
- Elton Brand
56: Shawn Marion
- Marc Gasol
57: Mitch Ritchmond
- Zach Randolph
- Ron Artest
58: Draymond Green
-Marques Johnson
- Terry Cummings
-Alvin Robertson
-Rolando Blackman
60: Tim Hardaway
61: Vlade Divac
62: Dragan Petrovic
63: Mark Aguirre
-Antonio McDyss
64: Reggie Lewis
- Andre Iguadola
-De'Maar Derozan
-Toni Kukoc
65: Vinnie Johnson
66: Kiki Vanderewe ( spelling)
- Serge Ibaka
-Steve Smith
67:Latrell Spreewell
- Horace Grant
68 Charles Oakley
-Jack Sikma
69: Mark Eaton
70: Ralph Sampson
71: Dikembe Mutombo
-Jeff Malone
72: Glenn Robinson
- Tyson Chandler
- Allan Houston
-Šarūnas Marčiulionis
- Jamal Crawford
-D'Andre Jordan
-Theo Ratliff
- Jason Terry
73: Ricky Pierce
-Vince Baker
74: Terry Porter
75: Kenyon Martin
76: Marcus Camby
- Buck Williams
- Lou Williams
77: Richard Jefferson
78: Michael Redd
-Maurice Cheeks
-Caron Butler
-Derek Harper
79: Fat Lever
-Brook Lopez
80: Denis Johnson
81: Kevin Johnson
Mahmoud Abdul Rauf
- Norm Nixon
82: Tom Chambers
- Bill Cartwright
-Michael Finley
Reggie Theus
83: Dan Marlje
84: Michael Cooper
85: AC Green
Sharif Abdur Rahim
86: John Starkes
-Steve Francis
87: Rudy Gay
88: Danny Granger
89: Jalen Rose
- Stephon Marbury
90: Juwan Howard
91: Nick Van Excel
-Jeff Hornecec
-Kurt Rambis
92: Damon Stoudomire
93: Denis Scott

@RavensMania

the difference between the players clustered together is practically non-existent but the further up you go you see a certain tier of players develop

james harden can be put somewhere in the 40's

Drazan Petrovic in the 50's also but generally this is it
biggest underachiever based on skill level but lacking the mental attributes?
Vince Carter

My list is complete.
I cannot stand westbrook so he's omitted.

How do we replace what Hurst brought to the offense? He was under utilized a bit but he was a nice fit schematically to be sure for how we ran things last year.

Sami84 said:

are we talking about the greatest or BEST. Greatest is MJ, no doubt...
but the best are the following ( im doing 1980- now)

1: Larry Bird ( 1984-1987 larry bird was the perfect player, don't let his lack of athletic ability fool you, his D was solid and he had no weakness, 90% free throw shooter, 42% 3pt shooter, 53 FG% 11 boards, 2 steals 6.8 assists and 1.2 blocks per game) His defensive win shares are AHEAD of lebron

2 Lebron ( If he could shoot the 3 at 36 % upwards and Free throws at 78% Upwards he'd be the GOAT no questions asked but his shooting has let him down)

3:Tim Duncan ( the most boring but effective player ever)

4: MJ ( didn't beat anyone of note in the 90's, weaker collective teams compared to the 80's, he is the GREATEST player ever though( as it pertains to legacy and the best SG ever) but I don't think he's sniffing 6 rings in the 90's if he had prime 80's celtics, showtime lakers and bad Boy pistons in their prime during this period, maybe 1 or 3 MAX)

5: Magic
6: Hakeem Olajuowan
7: Karl Malone
8: KAJ
9: Shaq
10: Moses Malone
11: Kobe Bryant
12: Stephen Curry
13: Dirk Nowitzki -( He made dallas a top 3 team in the best western conference era EVER with far less talent around him than other elite teams)
14: Kevin Durant ( his championships will always have that caveat to me)
15a: Dwayne Wade ( at his peak I'd have him right there with kobe but it was a very short peak)
15b Grant Hill ( yes, he was that good in his peak)
- Kawai Leonard
16: Isaiah Thomas
17: Gary Payton
18: John Stockton
19: Steve Nash
20: Jason Kidd
21:George Gervin
22:Kevin Garnett
23: Charles Barkley
24: Julius Erving
25: Kevin McHale
26: David Robinson
27: Patrick Ewing
Giannis
28: Clyde Drexler
29: Allen Iverson
30: Paul Pierce
31: Reggie Miller
32: Scottie Pippen
33: Sidney Moncrief
34: Tracy McGrady ( overrated and inefficient during his glory years at orlando, average to below average shooter)
35: Patrick Ewing
36: Dwight Howard
37: Yao Ming
- James Harden
38: Anthony Davis
- Dominique Wilkins
39: Ray Allen
-Carmelo Anthony
40: Alex English
41: Adrien Dantley
42: Manu Ginobili
43: Chris Webber
44: Alonzo Mourning
- Chris Bosh
45: Tony Parker
- Chris Paul
46: Klay Thompson
- Chris Mullen
- Pau Gasol
47: Robert Parish
- Penny Hardaway ( a little overrated even pre injury)
48: Vince Carter
- Damien Lillard
49: Peja Stoiakovic
50: Ben Wallace
51: Denis Rodman
- Larry Johnson
52: Bill Laimbeer
53: Chanucey Billups
54: Amare Stoudamire
- Blake Griffin
- Shawn Kemp
-Joe Dumars
55: Rasheed Wallace
- Elton Brand
56: Shawn Marion
- Marc Gasol
57: Mitch Ritchmond
- Zach Randolph
58: Horace Grant
59: Draymond Green
- Terry Cummings
60: Tim Hardaway
61: Vlade Divac
62: Dragan Petrovic
63: Mark Aguirre
64: Reggie Lewis
- Andre Iguadola
65: Vinnie Johnson
66: Kiki Vanderweye ( spelling)
- Serge Ibaka
67:Latrell Spreewell
68 Charles Oakley
69: Mark Eaton
70: Ralph Sampson
71: Dikembe Mutombo
72: Glenn Robinson
- Allan Houston
- Jamal Crawford
-Theo Ratliff
- Jason Terry
73: Ricky Pierce
74: Terry Porter
75: Kenyon Martin
76: Marcus Camby
- Lou Williams
77: Richard Jefferson
78: Michael Redd
79: Fat Lever
80: Denis Johnson
81: Kevin Johnson
82: Tom Chambers
83: Dan Marlje
84: Michael Cooper
85: AC Green

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I just took a quick look at your list and maybe I'm missing something, but how is Wilt Chamberlin, DR J and Unseld not on your list. Totally agree about Larry Bird being better than Lebron though, even if they are different types of players.

RavensMania said:

I just took a quick look at your list and maybe I'm missing something, but how is Wilt Chamberlin, DR J and Unseld not on your list. Totally agree about Larry Bird being better than Lebron though, even if they are different types of players.

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Dr J is on my list

I also wrote at the beginning 1980- present day

Edgar said:

How do we replace what Hurst brought to the offense? He was under utilized a bit but he was a nice fit schematically to be sure for how we ran things last year.

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i guess some combination of whoever wins the TE 3 job (breeland or wolf most likely but potentially someone like rechsteiner could win that roll in a way too) and pat ricard

and also more 2 TE sets rather than 3 TE sets

that would be my guess - that we find someone who can operate his role in the running game and move our passing offence slightly away from the 3rd tight end role

Edgar said:

How do we replace what Hurst brought to the offense? He was under utilized a bit but he was a nice fit schematically to be sure for how we ran things last year.

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I wish you hadn’t brought this up. lol think Hurst was set to explode this year in our offense. A guy his size with speed, great hands and blocking abilities will be tough to replace.

Tank said:

I wish you hadn’t brought this up. lol think Hurst was set to explode this year in our offense. A guy his size with speed, great hands and blocking abilities will be tough to replace.

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i think it's one of those where he wouldnt have had enough opportunities here behind Andrews to ever become the weapon he could be - it was mutually beneficial for him to leave

you also could suggest that his ceiling in our offence was hit and that if he was going to be a weapon then he would have been already

i think he was a good complementary piece who was a great fit in our offence but the 2nd round pick we got back for him was probably worth more to us

Sami84 said:

are we talking about the greatest or BEST. Greatest is MJ, no doubt...
but the best are the following ( im doing 1980- now)

1: Larry Bird ( 1984-1987 larry bird was the perfect player, don't let his lack of athletic ability fool you, his D was solid and he had no weakness, 90% free throw shooter, 42% 3pt shooter, 53 FG% 11 boards, 2 steals 6.8 assists and 1.2 blocks per game) His defensive win shares are AHEAD of lebron

2 Lebron ( If he could shoot the 3 at 36 % upwards and Free throws at 78% Upwards he'd be the GOAT no questions asked but his shooting has let him down)

3:Tim Duncan ( the most boring but effective player ever)

4: MJ ( didn't beat anyone of note in the 90's, weaker collective teams compared to the 80's, he is the GREATEST player ever though( as it pertains to legacy and the best SG ever) but I don't think he's sniffing 6 rings in the 90's if he had prime 80's celtics, showtime lakers and bad Boy pistons in their prime during this period, maybe 1 or 3 MAX)

5: Magic
6: Hakeem Olajuowan
7: Karl Malone
8: KAJ
9: Shaq
10: Moses Malone
11: Kobe Bryant
12: Stephen Curry
13: Dirk Nowitzki -( He made dallas a top 3 team in the best western conference era EVER with far less talent around him than other elite teams)
14: Kevin Durant ( his championships will always have that caveat to me)
15a: Dwayne Wade ( at his peak I'd have him right there with kobe but it was a very short peak)
15b Grant Hill ( yes, he was that good in his peak)
- Kawai Leonard
16: Isaiah Thomas
17: Gary Payton
18: John Stockton
19: Steve Nash
20: Jason Kidd
21:George Gervin
22:Kevin Garnett
23: Charles Barkley
24: Julius Erving
25: Kevin McHale
26: David Robinson
27: Patrick Ewing
Giannis
28: Clyde Drexler
29: Allen Iverson
30: Paul Pierce
31: Reggie Miller
32: Scottie Pippen
33: Sidney Moncrief
34: Tracy McGrady ( overrated and inefficient during his glory years at orlando, average to below average shooter)
35: Patrick Ewing
36: Dwight Howard
37: Yao Ming
- James Harden
38: Anthony Davis
- Dominique Wilkins
39: Ray Allen
-Carmelo Anthony
40: Alex English
41: Adrien Dantley
42: Manu Ginobili
43: Chris Webber
44: Alonzo Mourning
- Chris Bosh
45: Tony Parker
- Chris Paul
46: Klay Thompson
- Chris Mullen
- Pau Gasol
47: Robert Parish
- Penny Hardaway ( a little overrated even pre injury)
48: Vince Carter
- Damien Lillard
49: Peja Stoiakovic
50: Ben Wallace
51: Denis Rodman
- Larry Johnson
52: Bill Laimbeer
53: Chanucey Billups
54: Amare Stoudamire
- Blake Griffin
- Shawn Kemp
-Joe Dumars
55: Rasheed Wallace
- Elton Brand
56: Shawn Marion
- Marc Gasol
57: Mitch Ritchmond
- Zach Randolph
58: Horace Grant
59: Draymond Green
- Terry Cummings
60: Tim Hardaway
61: Vlade Divac
62: Dragan Petrovic
63: Mark Aguirre
64: Reggie Lewis
- Andre Iguadola
65: Vinnie Johnson
66: Kiki Vanderweye ( spelling)
- Serge Ibaka
67:Latrell Spreewell
68 Charles Oakley
69: Mark Eaton
70: Ralph Sampson
71: Dikembe Mutombo
72: Glenn Robinson
- Allan Houston
- Jamal Crawford
-Theo Ratliff
- Jason Terry
73: Ricky Pierce
74: Terry Porter
75: Kenyon Martin
76: Marcus Camby
- Lou Williams
77: Richard Jefferson
78: Michael Redd
79: Fat Lever
80: Denis Johnson
81: Kevin Johnson
82: Tom Chambers
83: Dan Marlje
84: Michael Cooper
85: AC Green

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@Sami84 Unless you've seen Michael Jordan live in his prime (Late 80's to early 90s, you would clearly understand how wrong it is not to make him #1. I've had the privilege to see him play live and i've seen both Kobe and LeBron live in their primes as well. So I'm here to tell you watching those 3 play live was a treat but only one person was so mesmerizing that you couldn't take your eyes off of him. Michael Jordan. While LeBron is one of the best forwards to play the game and Kobe is the second best SG to also play the game, neither of these two come close to MJ. He was just magical to watch him demolish opponents. As for Magic and Bird, I'm simply going to rely on what those guys and their peers have said time and again. MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time. Not up for debate. Larry Bird is a top 10 player certainly but surely not the greatest to ever play.

Now veering off course here a little bit. The only other athlete that has MJ like qualities of watchability without taking your eyes off of him in recent memory is Lamar Jackson. I know I've been screaming about this for a long time, but my thinking will be borne out in the next 5-7 yrs time. LJ will be universally regarded as one of the best athletes in the world.

Sami84 said:

Dr J is on my list

I also wrote at the beginning 1980- present day

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that's why I said I may have missed something. Thanks for clarifying.

rossihunter2 said:

i think it's one of those where he wouldnt have had enough opportunities here behind Andrews to ever become the weapon he could be - it was mutually beneficial for him to leave

you also could suggest that his ceiling in our offence was hit and that if he was going to be a weapon then he would have been already

i think he was a good complementary piece who was a great fit in our offence but the 2nd round pick we got back for him was probably worth more to us

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Maybe so but there’s just so much talent and potential. Don’t think he ever got a full shot here at being The Guy, the early foot fracture really set him back in what has recently been a full field of TE talent. Hope he does well in Atlanta.

Ellicottraven said:

@Sami84 Unless you've seen Michael Jordan live in his prime (Late 80's to early 90s, you would clearly understand how wrong it is not to make him #1. I've had the privilege to see him play live and i've seen both Kobe and LeBron live in their primes as well. So I'm here to tell you watching those 3 play live was a treat but only one person was so mesmerizing that you couldn't take your eyes off of him. Michael Jordan. While LeBron is one of the best forwards to play the game and Kobe is the second best SG to also play the game, neither of these two come close to MJ. He was just magical to watch him demolish opponents. As for Magic and Bird, I'm simply going to rely on what those guys and their peers have said time and again. MJ is the greatest basketball player of all time. Not up for debate. Larry Bird is a top 10 player certainly but surely not the greatest to ever play.

Now veering off course here a little bit. The only other athlete that has MJ like qualities of watchability without taking your eyes off of him in recent memory is Lamar Jackson. I know I've been screaming about this for a long time, but my thinking will be borne out in the next 5-7 yrs time. LJ will be universally regarded as one of the best athletes in the world.

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Oh man trust me, I know, Jordan was the greatest 1 man show i've ever seen in the late 80;s
I'm just saying larry bird is the only player with NO flaw, the best all round player if you will
Jordan is greatest scorer ever and a top 10 defensive player ever
Larry's combination of efficiency, clutchness, shooting, rebounding, assists, steals etc just makes him the best ALL-round player ive seen.

Tank said:

Maybe so but there’s just so much talent and potential. Don’t think he ever got a full shot here at being The Guy, the early foot fracture really set him back in what has recently been a full field of TE talent. Hope he does well in Atlanta.

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i think he will do well - dont think the ravens will regret trading him away early either

was very much a win win win trade i think - atlanta wins by getting a cheaper and more athletic replacement for austin hooper, baltimore wins by recouping a 2nd round pick for their TE3, hurst wins by getting to a situation with an opportunity to star

Theres a good argument that Larry Bird is the most skilled player ever, he just wasnt a good athlete. Ambidextrous too, you couldnt force him away from his dominant side.

Tank said:

I wish you hadn’t brought this up. lol think Hurst was set to explode this year in our offense. A guy his size with speed, great hands and blocking abilities will be tough to replace.

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I think its possible you're right. He certainly fit in well in terms of what we do. Athletic with great hands and physical. Understood the offense. Im not sure we did well for ourselves necessarily with that trade in terms of what we gave up in Hurst.

rossihunter2 said:

i guess some combination of whoever wins the TE 3 job (breeland or wolf most likely but potentially someone like rechsteiner could win that roll in a way too) and pat ricard

and also more 2 TE sets rather than 3 TE sets

that would be my guess - that we find someone who can operate his role in the running game and move our passing offence slightly away from the 3rd tight end role

Click to expand...

I would tend to agree with the last two notions the way that it looks. I don't see either of the two TE's we brought in as anywhere near ready year one. Unless we bring in a vet I would see us using Ricard as TE three and moving more to a 2 TE on the regular.