Coaching Carousel 2022

rossihunter2 said:

likely will be an internal promotion would be my guess

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UPennChem said:

I dont pay attention to NFL coaching all that much at all. Really only the big names and the teams in the division. Like I personally just don't care what the Jets or the or Jaguars etc coaches are doing.

I can obviously see from the statistic that the race profile is skewed. My question from an someone who has no knowledge because they don't keep up with it, how many Black candidates are being passed on for no reason other than that?

I'm truly making no comment either way. You seem to strongly feel the NFL is moving backwards and I'd like to hear your supporting data because I know you're more knowledgeable and in tune about NFL coaches than I.

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rossihunter2 said:

i dont necessarily think the intention is that they move backwards but that their stated desire to improve their diversity and equality within the league is clearly failing somewhere at the top level

it's a worrying sign that there's just as few black HCs in the league as ever and similarly a lack of diversity in GMs and even moreso in ownership - if it is to be accepted and understood that the most likely talent base for future coaching staffs is players then it should follow that they would make up a much higher percentage of coaching staffs than they do

now admittedly 2021 has been better in terms of both interview requests and also hiring of POC coaches which is a good sign that maybe things can change and improve - the problem seems to be at the top of organisations

there's various statistics about the average length of coaching tenures against race where white coaches are given longer to correct course, and when you control for winning/losing records black coaches are fired more often

i think the problem mostly lies in the fact that the NFL is a mostly nepotistic environment and that historically has always meant white privilege because of the access to people in power based on existing relationships and the way power dynamics have traditionally worked that has limited POC and minorities from accessing those same spaces - that's an environment that rewards networking and existing relationships over merit

going into 2021 (not sure what the number is right now after 1/4 of the league's HCs have just been sacked) 10 of the 32 head coaches were related to a current or former NFL coach - and of the 73 coaches related to a current or former NFL coach, 55 were white - this should somewhat help exemplify how hard it is or can be for new people to break into those circles and actually get opportunities

the issue is that while rooney rules and things like that are helping more minority candidates get interviews, ultimately getting hired is still somewhat about who you know - and it requires that those without connections have to significantly out-perform those who do in order to be considered and ultimately be hired - the saying that "black people have to be twice as good and work twice as hard for the same opportunities as white people" feels appropriate here

now obviously it's impossible to know specifically why various candidates were rejected or accepted in specific circumstances because that stuff never gets revealed but the general trend is a frustrating one

another potential problem historically is that often black coaches (especially) have been given jobs on the defensive side of the ball and often when working on offence it's with RBs or TEs and as we currently can see - it is offensive coaches and especially those who work with QBs who are more likely to engender interest for HC roles

now it's possible that the recent changes to the rules help fix that last problem as teams are now being rewarded with 2 3rd round picks if minority candidates are hired away from them thus incentivising the nurturing and promotion of minority coaches and executives within their organisations which should ultimately help improve the pool of minority candidates available and make it harder to pass them over

and we'll see what happens in this hiring cycle with a ton of good and popular HC candidates from minority backgrounds who've already had interviews:
Byron Leftwich
Leslie Frazier
Todd Bowles
Jim Caldwell
Brian Flores
Jerod Mayo
Eric Bieniemy
Aaron Glenn
Vance Joseph

ultimately the biggest issue is always going to be owners

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JO_75 said:

Brian Flores won't be on the market long, he'll be back. Reports say the Texans are targeting Flores as their next Head Coach. Though him going to Houston isn't a better situation organization wise either.

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Simba said:

Not to get into some fangled debate or anything because I'm not saying I agree, but...

I was reading this article earlier this week about how beyond those relationships and coaching trees that you mentioned, white men have typically gotten more coaching opportunities because they were never as good on the field as their black counterparts and thus, transitioned to a coaching career much earlier. A lot of the coaches in the league today are failed college players who ended up as graduate assistants under a legacy coach and worked their way up. So still a lot of what you said was true. Just thought it was a different angle.

Now, I think we're starting to see a shift in recent years with all of those candidates that you mentioned. Lots of former players now getting much better opportunities and it's bound to pay off sooner or later. As you said though, it's ultimately up to the owners and so many seem content with the same retreads instead of trying something new.

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RavensMania said:

well if this is true, he won't have to give up draft picks to land Watson.

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rossihunter2 said:

i dont necessarily think the intention is that they move backwards but that their stated desire to improve their diversity and equality within the league is clearly failing somewhere at the top level

it's a worrying sign that there's just as few black HCs in the league as ever and similarly a lack of diversity in GMs and even moreso in ownership - if it is to be accepted and understood that the most likely talent base for future coaching staffs is players then it should follow that they would make up a much higher percentage of coaching staffs than they do

now admittedly 2021 has been better in terms of both interview requests and also hiring of POC coaches which is a good sign that maybe things can change and improve - the problem seems to be at the top of organisations

there's various statistics about the average length of coaching tenures against race where white coaches are given longer to correct course, and when you control for winning/losing records black coaches are fired more often

i think the problem mostly lies in the fact that the NFL is a mostly nepotistic environment and that historically has always meant white privilege because of the access to people in power based on existing relationships and the way power dynamics have traditionally worked that has limited POC and minorities from accessing those same spaces - that's an environment that rewards networking and existing relationships over merit

going into 2021 (not sure what the number is right now after 1/4 of the league's HCs have just been sacked) 10 of the 32 head coaches were related to a current or former NFL coach - and of the 73 coaches related to a current or former NFL coach, 55 were white - this should somewhat help exemplify how hard it is or can be for new people to break into those circles and actually get opportunities

the issue is that while rooney rules and things like that are helping more minority candidates get interviews, ultimately getting hired is still somewhat about who you know - and it requires that those without connections have to significantly out-perform those who do in order to be considered and ultimately be hired - the saying that "black people have to be twice as good and work twice as hard for the same opportunities as white people" feels appropriate here

now obviously it's impossible to know specifically why various candidates were rejected or accepted in specific circumstances because that stuff never gets revealed but the general trend is a frustrating one

another potential problem historically is that often black coaches (especially) have been given jobs on the defensive side of the ball and often when working on offence it's with RBs or TEs and as we currently can see - it is offensive coaches and especially those who work with QBs who are more likely to engender interest for HC roles

now it's possible that the recent changes to the rules help fix that last problem as teams are now being rewarded with 2 3rd round picks if minority candidates are hired away from them thus incentivising the nurturing and promotion of minority coaches and executives within their organisations which should ultimately help improve the pool of minority candidates available and make it harder to pass them over

and we'll see what happens in this hiring cycle with a ton of good and popular HC candidates from minority backgrounds who've already had interviews:
Byron Leftwich
Leslie Frazier
Todd Bowles
Jim Caldwell
Brian Flores
Jerod Mayo
Eric Bieniemy
Aaron Glenn
Vance Joseph

ultimately the biggest issue is always going to be owners

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JO_75 said:

Jeez... let the man coach. Front offices who try to get involved with coaches and stuff is exactly why Franchises like the Texans are terrible. Culley even admitted that during the Patriots/Texans game Nick Caserio chimed in on the headset to let the Patriots score.

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UPennChem said:

Thanks for that!! Informative! The thing about owners is, they are who they are right now and there is very little turnover of owners. Absolutely not on yearly timescales. So I'm not sure that they are as much of an issue honestly. When an owner wants to sell a team I'd be going forward you see a greater percentage of POC purchasing the teams. It's just something that happens so infrequently.

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rossihunter2 said:

how bizarre - caserio on a power trip now that he's out from under belichick's thumb

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rossihunter2 said:

i guess my question would then be - why are black or minority players who arent as good transitioning to coaching earlier too? given the makeup of college football, seems reasonable to expect a large number of those guys to make that early leap to the sidelines also but there doesnt seem to be much of a trend of that...

my guess (and it is a complete guess) would be socioeconomic conditions related to scholarships forcing guys to stick to the playing career longer (in order to retain that scholarship), and potentially generalised lack of financial security in order to make that kind of transition - id be interested to know of those guys who transition earlier, whether there's any sort of correlation between that transition and financial and educational security

i think the NFL lost major opportunities between the initial implementation of the rooney rule and last year's changes to help ramp up change to help alleviate these issues - feels like they just wasted time between then and now which is why nothing much has changed at the top

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Michael M. said:

I would like to see Leftwich get a shot at HC and I think he could do well in a place like Minnesota, Chicago or even Miami. Any thoughts on why Bieniemy gets his share of interviews but never gets or takes an HC job?

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rossihunter2 said:

i guess my question would then be - why are black or minority players who arent as good transitioning to coaching earlier too? given the makeup of college football, seems reasonable to expect a large number of those guys to make that early leap to the sidelines also but there doesnt seem to be much of a trend of that...

my guess (and it is a complete guess) would be socioeconomic conditions related to scholarships forcing guys to stick to the playing career longer (in order to retain that scholarship), and potentially generalised lack of financial security in order to make that kind of transition - id be interested to know of those guys who transition earlier, whether there's any sort of correlation between that transition and financial and educational security

i think the NFL lost major opportunities between the initial implementation of the rooney rule and last year's changes to help ramp up change to help alleviate these issues - feels like they just wasted time between then and now which is why nothing much has changed at the top

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rossihunter2 said:

i meant an issue in the sense that many of them are dinosaurs who are largely very conservative and very resistant to change - im under no illusion that you can diversify the ownership anytime soon

was more talking about ownership (and their demographics) being part of the obstacle for change around GMs and HCs

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rossihunter2 said:

i dont necessarily think the intention is that they move backwards but that their stated desire to improve their diversity and equality within the league is clearly failing somewhere at the top level

it's a worrying sign that there's just as few black HCs in the league as ever and similarly a lack of diversity in GMs and even moreso in ownership - if it is to be accepted and understood that the most likely talent base for future coaching staffs is players then it should follow that they would make up a much higher percentage of coaching staffs than they do

now admittedly 2021 has been better in terms of both interview requests and also hiring of POC coaches which is a good sign that maybe things can change and improve - the problem seems to be at the top of organisations

there's various statistics about the average length of coaching tenures against race where white coaches are given longer to correct course, and when you control for winning/losing records black coaches are fired more often

i think the problem mostly lies in the fact that the NFL is a mostly nepotistic environment and that historically has always meant white privilege because of the access to people in power based on existing relationships and the way power dynamics have traditionally worked that has limited POC and minorities from accessing those same spaces - that's an environment that rewards networking and existing relationships over merit

going into 2021 (not sure what the number is right now after 1/4 of the league's HCs have just been sacked) 10 of the 32 head coaches were related to a current or former NFL coach - and of the 73 coaches related to a current or former NFL coach, 55 were white - this should somewhat help exemplify how hard it is or can be for new people to break into those circles and actually get opportunities

the issue is that while rooney rules and things like that are helping more minority candidates get interviews, ultimately getting hired is still somewhat about who you know - and it requires that those without connections have to significantly out-perform those who do in order to be considered and ultimately be hired - the saying that "black people have to be twice as good and work twice as hard for the same opportunities as white people" feels appropriate here

now obviously it's impossible to know specifically why various candidates were rejected or accepted in specific circumstances because that stuff never gets revealed but the general trend is a frustrating one

another potential problem historically is that often black coaches (especially) have been given jobs on the defensive side of the ball and often when working on offence it's with RBs or TEs and as we currently can see - it is offensive coaches and especially those who work with QBs who are more likely to engender interest for HC roles

now it's possible that the recent changes to the rules help fix that last problem as teams are now being rewarded with 2 3rd round picks if minority candidates are hired away from them thus incentivising the nurturing and promotion of minority coaches and executives within their organisations which should ultimately help improve the pool of minority candidates available and make it harder to pass them over

and we'll see what happens in this hiring cycle with a ton of good and popular HC candidates from minority backgrounds who've already had interviews:
Byron Leftwich
Leslie Frazier
Todd Bowles
Jim Caldwell
Brian Flores
Jerod Mayo
Eric Bieniemy
Aaron Glenn
Vance Joseph

ultimately the biggest issue is always going to be owners

Click to expand...

JO_75 said:

Love how Ron Rivera and Robert Saleh aren't included as minority head coaches, and people only focused on the amount of black head coaches. Hopefully some on this list get a shot.

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JO_75 said:

Watson is gone regardless. His issue is with ownership. I think they are going to try building around Davis Mills using the picks they get from a Watson trade.

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