Signings, Cuts, Trades

[Ellicottraven]

I have a bad feeling he’s going to the Browns. Reunite with Watson. DHop, Amari, and Chubb would be nasty

That would be nasty. Amari and DHop with Chubb would be nasty if Kyle Boller was the QB.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

Extremely late reply:
Harbs: "But, there'always just one more ST ILB that I simply have to have on the 53. Screw them QBs"

That's what I fear will happen. Harbaugh won't give up on special teams without a fight and they'll keep just as many S/T specialists as usual. It might not be QBs that suffer with the new rule, but corners.

How many years in a row will the Ravens have to find CBs on the street before they realize they start every season with too few on the roster?

 

[QtR Nevermore]

The only way I could see the Ravens adding DHop is if they find a very late Ryan Grant style medical excuse to wriggle out of the Beckham deal and direct his money to Hopkins.

It's an impossible dream but I'd love it. After all, OBJ has already done his job, Lamar's signed long term - time to study the small print in the contract.

 

[rossihunter2]

That's what I fear will happen. Harbaugh won't give up on special teams without a fight and they'll keep just as many S/T specialists as usual. It might not be QBs that suffer with the new rule, but corners.

How many years in a row will the Ravens have to find CBs on the street before they realize they start every season with too few on the roster?

That’s not fair - one year we literally carried so many worthy CBs that we had to cut guys we liked

We still had a bunch of games that year where we were playing guys off the street - you can never have enough corners… mostly because roster size is too small - not because we’ve got 2 LBs on the team who are only here to play special teams

 

[rmcjacket23]

Lol one I already said Keaton Mitchell takes over for Duv. Flowers plays in the slot. Yes you would sacrifice on other areas of the roster but for the third time, I have neither advocated for it nor have I even predicted it to happen.

So I'll say it real slow for you, they can pretty easily sign Hopkins if they want to and think that's best for the team. End of statement.

(here comes the comment of well a team can do anything they want at any time for any reason blah blah)

If Zay is in the slot, where are OBJ or Bateman playing? On an average play, how many WRs are we expecting to have on the field?

 

[rmcjacket23]

That's what I fear will happen. Harbaugh won't give up on special teams without a fight and they'll keep just as many S/T specialists as usual. It might not be QBs that suffer with the new rule, but corners.

How many years in a row will the Ravens have to find CBs on the street before they realize they start every season with too few on the roster?

Yeah if you actually did like a roster breakdown of how we've put the initial 53 together for like the last 3-4 seasons, you wouldn't be able to create an argument that we've lacked depth at Corner for several years now.

In actuality, a strong case could be made that we went excessive at Corner for several years, and neglected depth or even starters at other position groups because of it.

It's been a long, long, long, long time since people could complain about lack of Corners. You have to get like at least 3-4 simultaneous injuries in that group for it to be an issue.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Extremely late reply:
Harbs: "But, there'always just one more ST ILB that I simply have to have on the 53. Screw them QBs"

I mean... who's out here beating down the door for Josh Johnson? Like its a 3rd QB. I don't even really care who it is or whether we keep one or not. If we need one, it means Lamar got hurt, and you can literally just sign anybody off the street. They all suck regardless.

 

[RavensMania]

If Zay is in the slot, where are OBJ or Bateman playing? On an average play, how many WRs are we expecting to have on the field?

9 a center and lamar. A new version of swinging gate.

 

[rmcjacket23]

9 a center and lamar. A new version of swinging gate.

I mean it sounds like we're committed to go 5 wide with Andrews. So yeah, there's no RB, and honestly its a pretty simplistic offense to attack. Its called blitzing.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

That’s not fair - one year we literally carried so many worthy CBs that we had to cut guys we liked

We still had a bunch of games that year where we were playing guys off the street - you can never have enough corners… mostly because roster size is too small - not because we’ve got 2 LBs on the team who are only here to play special teams

Yeah if you actually did like a roster breakdown of how we've put the initial 53 together for like the last 3-4 seasons, you wouldn't be able to create an argument that we've lacked depth at Corner for several years now.

In actuality, a strong case could be made that we went excessive at Corner for several years, and neglected depth or even starters at other position groups because of it.

It's been a long, long, long, long time since people could complain about lack of Corners. You have to get like at least 3-4 simultaneous injuries in that group for it to be an issue.

I'm a bit worried that you two are disagreeing here, because you both usually have a lot more facts at your fingertips than I do, but I'll check to see what's happened.

In 22 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch and Josh Ross who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

In 21 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 plus a Safety in season.

In 20 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 5 CBs and added 7 DBs in season.

In 19 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

(From 19-21 we had Board as the principal S/T linebacker and he did see a defensive snaps, so the guys named were in addition to him.)

To me, that looks like a consistent pattern of 6 (or even 5) CBs not being quite enough to get through a season and 2 special teams linebackers being at least one too many.

At the 53rd roster spot, no player is a star, but I think it would be better to have a 7th CB of the Ravens choosing on the roster because he's almost certainly going to be starting a game at some point, rather than wasting that space an a S/T body and having to make do with whoever is available at a much more important position.

I take your point, Rossi, that rosters are too small but that's all the more reason not to waste a spot year after year.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I'm a bit worried that you two are disagreeing here, because you both usually have a lot more facts at your fingertips than I do, but I'll check to see what's happened.

In 22 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch and Josh Ross who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

In 21 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 plus a Safety in season.

In 20 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 5 CBs and added 7 DBs in season.

In 19 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

(From 19-21 we had Board as the principal S/T linebacker and he did see a defensive snaps, so the guys named were in addition to him.)

To me, that looks like a consistent pattern of 6 (or even 5) CBs not being quite enough to get through a season and 2 special teams linebackers being at least one too many.

At the 53rd roster spot, no player is a star, but I think it would be better to have a 7th CB of the Ravens choosing on the roster because he's almost certainly going to be starting a game at some point, rather than wasting that space an a S/T body and having to make do with whoever is available at a much more important position.

I take your point, Rossi, that rosters are too small but that's all the more reason not to waste a spot year after year.

Right, but 6 corners is plenty to start the season. What is the 7th or 8th corner going to do until players get injured? They're going to play ST, which is what guys like Welch and Ross do (only better), or they're going to be inactive.

So why would I carry more when I can just add somebody during the year? If any of the injuries end up being IR players, you get both guys... you move the injured player to IR, you add a Corner, and you keep the ST player. Which is what we do. Frequently.

The 7th or 8th corner is just going to be "a guy". It's not a Marcus Peters player, or even like a Kyle Fuller player. Those guys make the 53 everytime. It's the Worley types that don't, because they're not as good at ST as a Welch or a Alaka, and they have no path to playing time until injuries occur.
And when they do, we bring them on.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I'm a bit worried that you two are disagreeing here, because you both usually have a lot more facts at your fingertips than I do, but I'll check to see what's happened.

In 22 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch and Josh Ross who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

In 21 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 plus a Safety in season.

In 20 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 5 CBs and added 7 DBs in season.

In 19 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

(From 19-21 we had Board as the principal S/T linebacker and he did see a defensive snaps, so the guys named were in addition to him.)

To me, that looks like a consistent pattern of 6 (or even 5) CBs not being quite enough to get through a season and 2 special teams linebackers being at least one too many.

At the 53rd roster spot, no player is a star, but I think it would be better to have a 7th CB of the Ravens choosing on the roster because he's almost certainly going to be starting a game at some point, rather than wasting that space an a S/T body and having to make do with whoever is available at a much more important position.

I take your point, Rossi, that rosters are too small but that's all the more reason not to waste a spot year after year.

Also, for a little more context here:
'22 - 10 DBs to start the year, 13 were on active roster at some point by end of the season. The three added were Seymour, Worley, and Washington. Seymour and Washington played very few defensive snaps (Seymour actually play a ton of ST), and Worley played a total of 6 defensive snaps before week 17, where he played the whole game in a throwaway game basically.
So the guys we added never really "started" and played very sparingly.

'21 - 11 DBs to start the year, 17 were on active roster at some point by end of the season. The six added were Richards, Levine, Jefferson, Worley, Wilkins, Seymour, Jackson (my math doesn't work here for some reason, but whatever).
Jackson, Wilkins, Richards and Worley played very little defensively. Worley had one high usage game late in the year. Levine was a core ST who played very little defensively, and was added to the 53 shortly after final cuts. Jefferson didn't see higher usage until later in December.

I'm not going through the rest of the seasons, but guarantee you'll see similar. Guys we're adding later on are either longer depth guys who themselves didn't play much, or ST guys who are replacing other injured ST guys. Even Worley, who actually had like 5-10% defensive usage the last two years, really gets that from like one game late in the year. He's not out there playing like 30-40 snaps a week for months.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

Right, but 6 corners is plenty to start the season. What is the 7th or 8th corner going to do until players get injured? They're going to play ST, which is what guys like Welch and Ross do (only better), or they're going to be inactive.

So why would I carry more when I can just add somebody during the year? If any of the injuries end up being IR players, you get both guys... you move the injured player to IR, you add a Corner, and you keep the ST player. Which is what we do. Frequently.

The 7th or 8th corner is just going to be "a guy". It's not a Marcus Peters player, or even like a Kyle Fuller player. Those guys make the 53 everytime. It's the Worley types that don't, because they're not as good at ST as a Welch or a Alaka, and they have no path to playing time until injuries occur.
And when they do, we bring them on.

That's been the Ravens thinking too, but I disagree.

The 7th corner isn't going to play early but he is going to be taking a lot of snaps for one or two games in the season, whereas the second S/T linebacker is never going to play on defense, based on the last few years.

So, you could wait until injuries hit later in the season, but that's when every team starts needing to add CBs - you might end up with the 12th best guy, instead of taking your 1st choice. They might not be Marcus Peters but Otaro Alaka isn't Roquan Smith, we're not talking about stars in either case, but better is better.

With the reduced importance of special teams (and field position itself), I don't think a few degrees better S/T play with no defensive snaps outweighs better CB play plus all the same special teams snaps (at a lower level).

 

[rmcjacket23]

That's been the Ravens thinking too, but I disagree.

The 7th corner isn't going to play early but he is going to be taking a lot of snaps for one or two games in the season, whereas the second S/T linebacker is never going to play on defense, based on the last few years.

So, you could wait until injuries hit later in the season, but that's when every team starts needing to add CBs - you might end up with the 12th best guy, instead of taking your 1st choice. They might not be Marcus Peters but Otaro Alaka isn't Roquan Smith, we're not talking about stars in either case, but better is better.

With the reduced importance of special teams (and field position itself), I don't think a few degrees better S/T play with no defensive snaps outweighs better CB play plus all the same special teams snaps (at a lower level).

I do. I want a core ST to play for 3 months, and not worry about who I add in December for a few games. Realistically, the "12th" corner that I'm adding is about the same as my first choice to begin with. Hence why we always seem to keep bringing back the same guys ever year, despite them being cut from the initial 53.

Most teams are taking players based on their familiarity with systems, not based on how they arbitrarily "rank" league-wide.

Basically, in these cases, there is no "better". Better is just whoever the team likes and whoever they want to keep. In some of these cases, we're talking about guys who have been on our PS for some or all of the season, which means other teams had shots at them and didn't want them.

At no point in time do I recall us being like "damn, our 8th best Corner got sniped by another team". If we're in that spot where said player is playing a lot, there's a good chance there's a W/L record problem anyway, and so its not going to matter. I don't think a Worley is materially better or worse than anybody else we would sign off the street. He's just more familiar with the system because he spends all of training camp here.

Would also point out what I referenced in my context post... the 7th or 8th Corner is typically playing a lot of snaps 1-2 games late in the year because the team isn't actively trying to winning those games (i.e. week 16 or 17, while resting starters). There hasn't been many instances where these guys are forced into starting roles in games we're actually trying to win.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

Most teams are taking players based on their familiarity with systems, not based on how they arbitrarily "rank" league-wide.

Basically, in these cases, there is no "better". Better is just whoever the team likes and whoever they want to keep.

I never talked about a league wide ranking, but about the Ravens keeping their first choice from the pool.

Would also point out what I referenced in my context post... the 7th or 8th Corner is typically playing a lot of snaps 1-2 games late in the year because the team isn't actively trying to winning those games (i.e. week 16 or 17, while resting starters). There hasn't been many instances where these guys are forced into starting roles in games we're actually trying to win.

It only seems like those games don't matter because Lamar has been injured these last 2 years. In 2020 we were trying to win games with street FA DBs and it could happen again this year.

Looks like we're never going to agree here - you value special teams higher and I value depth at corner and the Ravens will go with the extra special teamer as usual.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I never talked about a league wide ranking, but about the Ravens keeping their first choice from the pool.

It only seems like those games don't matter because Lamar has been injured these last 2 years. In 2020 we were trying to win games with street FA DBs and it could happen again this year.

Looks like we're never going to agree here - you value special teams higher and I value depth at corner and the Ravens will go with the extra special teamer as usual.

Right but 2020 you had like the world's largest influx of injuries. That's not something you can prep for. We would have needed to carry like 20 DBs on the 53 man for that to work, and you would have ended with the same guys out there that you put out there at the end anyway.

Who told you the Ravens never got their first choice of depth signings to begin with? Seems to me they're hitting that at a very high frequency. Like which specific names are they missing out on?

I don't think its about valuing depth. I think every team needs to be 5-6 deep at Corner. And you've agreed that they have been every year for a long time now. You just want above and beyond what's reasonable depth, which I think you're having a hard time selling.

Would also recommend for additional context that you look outside the Ravens and perhaps how other teams shape their Corner depth. Look at the roster distribution from their 53 to what they ultimately use, and the volume of snaps being played by 7th or 8th Corners on an average season. I think you'll find that distribution is incredibly similar to what the Ravens do, i.e. those players aren't providing any value on the defensive side without a large volume of injuries, and primarily act as ST contributors (if they contribute at all).

And I agree they'll go with the extra ST guy. Because he'll play more snaps, and make more impact, then the extra Corner will. The extra Corner you probably won't even know is on the roster, because he won't be suiting up for weeks or months.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

Right but 2020 you had like the world's largest influx of injuries. That's not something you can prep for. We would have needed to carry like 20 DBs on the 53 man for that to work, and you would have ended with the same guys out there that you put out there at the end anyway.

Who told you the Ravens never got their first choice of depth signings to begin with? Seems to me they're hitting that at a very high frequency. Like which specific names are they missing out on?

I don't think its about valuing depth. I think every team needs to be 5-6 deep at Corner. And you've agreed that they have been every year for a long time now. You just want above and beyond what's reasonable depth, which I think you're having a hard time selling.

Would also recommend for additional context that you look outside the Ravens and perhaps how other teams shape their Corner depth. Look at the roster distribution from their 53 to what they ultimately use, and the volume of snaps being played by 7th or 8th Corners on an average season. I think you'll find that distribution is incredibly similar to what the Ravens do, i.e. those players aren't providing any value on the defensive side without a large volume of injuries, and primarily act as ST contributors (if they contribute at all).

And I agree they'll go with the extra ST guy. Because he'll play more snaps, and make more impact, then the extra Corner will. The extra Corner you probably won't even know is on the roster, because he won't be suiting up for weeks or months.

First Ozzie then EDC repeatedly say you can never have enough corners, and then go with a max. of 6 on the roster and add street FAs every year.

I'm talking CB depth because it's an important but injury prone position but I'm not fussy. I'd prefer getting rid of (non-specialist) special teams roster spots altogether to keep more off/def depth at any position.

You ask who we're missing out on, I'm thinking of the next Zack Seiler or Tim Patrick who have been exposed to other teams for the sake of Kristian Welch or whoever.

 

[rmcjacket23]

First Ozzie then EDC repeatedly say you can never have enough corners, and then go with a max. of 6 on the roster and add street FAs every year.

I'm talking CB depth because it's an important but injury prone position but I'm not fussy. I'd prefer getting rid of (non-specialist) special teams roster spots altogether to keep more off/def depth at any position.

You ask who we're missing out on, I'm thinking of the next Zack Seiler or Tim Patrick who have been exposed to other teams for the sake of Kristian Welch or whoever.

Well a) a lot of them aren't street FA's, but PS calls ups from players already on our team and b) yeah, because what's the point of having more than six when only like 5 are dressing? Am I going to dress a sixth Corner and sit a 4th ILB (who's a better ST player) just so I have courage for 3 in-game injuries? That's not good roster or gameday construction any way you break it down.

I think the fact that you have to reference very mediocre players who aren't game changes on other teams, that don't play the same position group, as a list of "fears" is a pretty good example of the strength of the depth we've had.

Now I have concerns about 2023 because our depth is tied to younger draft picks who haven't played much, but that doesn't mean they'll be better or worse than a street veteran or whoever the 7th or 8th corner is.

Also comes with the obvious caveat of it may be 6 Corners, but we have very flexible Safeties who will play coverage if needed. Like Stephens and Hamilton are effectively hybrids, and I doubt they have any quorums with Stone or even ArDarius Washington in coverage on limited snaps either. So its more of a product of the total DB distribution, as opposed to Corners alone. Basically, there's 4th or 5th Safeties on this roster that will do better in coverage than any 7th or 8th Corner you can find.

 

[UPennChem]

Rapsheet says that he thinks DHop is gonna a get a 10m contract with some incentives to potentially 15. If he's that cheap just pull the trigger who gives a fuck.

I just don't buy for a second he's gonna sign that cheap. I see it being at least around 13m base and I'm sure incentives around 20m.

 

[rossihunter2]

I'm a bit worried that you two are disagreeing here, because you both usually have a lot more facts at your fingertips than I do, but I'll check to see what's happened.

In 22 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch and Josh Ross who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

In 21 on the initial 53 we had Kristian Welch who barely saw a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 plus a Safety in season.

In 20 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 5 CBs and added 7 DBs in season.

In 19 on the initial 53 we had Otaro Alaka who didn't see a defensive snap. We started with 6 CBs and added 2 in season.

(From 19-21 we had Board as the principal S/T linebacker and he did see a defensive snaps, so the guys named were in addition to him.)

To me, that looks like a consistent pattern of 6 (or even 5) CBs not being quite enough to get through a season and 2 special teams linebackers being at least one too many.

At the 53rd roster spot, no player is a star, but I think it would be better to have a 7th CB of the Ravens choosing on the roster because he's almost certainly going to be starting a game at some point, rather than wasting that space an a S/T body and having to make do with whoever is available at a much more important position.

I take your point, Rossi, that rosters are too small but that's all the more reason not to waste a spot year after year.

Not a wasted spot though - that core special teamer will likely play more snaps than CB6 anyway and definitely more than a hypothetical CB7 or CB8