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Wink
- Thread starter UPennChem
- Start date
UPennChem
Hall of Famer
The first thing I want to discuss is how we use our pass rushers. I think under wink, sort of no matter who the personnel is, year after year we are towards the top of the league in pressures.
BUT, what we have seen so often for years now is that we have so many nearly sacks that end up getting us gashesd. I'm not sure what percentage of that is player execution or what but it's a terrible look.
Also, we've seen that the extremely blitz heavy strategy is a surefire way to get beat by strong offensive teams with quality quarterbacks. Wink has "adjusted" see the KC game and some others. But I guess my point is, it kinda seems like in today's NFL Winks base strategy is only good a taking advantage of inferior opponents. It's like a bullying strategy. But smart opponents take advantage of us.
Finally, you can look at Judon in Ne and Zadarius in GB among others. We have guys who aren't super productive in terms of sacks here but go on to huge things elsewhere. We have Oweh who I know is a somewhat raw rookie, but this dude is the most athletic rusher we've ever had and he still only has 5 sacks.
I'm beginning to question is Winks whole defensive strategy is getting to be a bit stale in today's NFL
BUT, what we have seen so often for years now is that we have so many nearly sacks that end up getting us gashesd. I'm not sure what percentage of that is player execution or what but it's a terrible look.
Also, we've seen that the extremely blitz heavy strategy is a surefire way to get beat by strong offensive teams with quality quarterbacks. Wink has "adjusted" see the KC game and some others. But I guess my point is, it kinda seems like in today's NFL Winks base strategy is only good a taking advantage of inferior opponents. It's like a bullying strategy. But smart opponents take advantage of us.
Finally, you can look at Judon in Ne and Zadarius in GB among others. We have guys who aren't super productive in terms of sacks here but go on to huge things elsewhere. We have Oweh who I know is a somewhat raw rookie, but this dude is the most athletic rusher we've ever had and he still only has 5 sacks.
I'm beginning to question is Winks whole defensive strategy is getting to be a bit stale in today's NFL
JoeyFlex5
Hall of Famer
Winks defense gets gashed when qbs are under pressure by design and I don’t think healthy corners can save it at this point. A good qb knows where the blitz is coming from and they eat it up with ease, this scheme relies on qbs making poor throws because they’re under pressure, but the throwing windows are so wide open that even a moderately poor throw is easily caught.
fundamentally this defense is broken and the league has figured it out, you still need a mentally competent qb with some poise to beat it, but the playoffs have plenty of those types, this defense isn’t gonna win us a chip.
with Judon and ZDS being out there doing what they’re doing I worry that we’re not gonna attract FA pass rushers.
fundamentally this defense is broken and the league has figured it out, you still need a mentally competent qb with some poise to beat it, but the playoffs have plenty of those types, this defense isn’t gonna win us a chip.
with Judon and ZDS being out there doing what they’re doing I worry that we’re not gonna attract FA pass rushers.
I certainly think there's some things we'd look to change - and part of it is just being more flexible and more particular with the game-plan - the first few years the idea seemed to be that we would dictate what the offence does by being aggressive and forcing them to do what we want (get the ball out fast underneath and either force them to pass into the strength of the defence or drop guys into the passing lanes while simulating pressure to create turnovers or have QBs eat sacks) - that's less effective now because as you say some teams have worked out answers to it because it's somewhat predictable
what i think is interesting though, is looking at the dolphins who have a similar style of defence and looking at their effectiveness - now the dolphins has a lot in common with the pats defence given that's where Flores came from and therefore has elements of that philosophy where it's an adaptive and adaptable unit but schematically it's very similar to the ravens defence - what i think the biggest difference is... and it's something I really like and I think we did more of this in 2018 and 2019 is simulated pressure where (especially in dime) we get tons of guys at the line and we drop guys into coverage from all sorts of angles and send pressure from other places (Mosley, Suggs, Judon, Bowser have all be great at those zone-drops into passing lanes) - I think the other thing is that they've improved their personnel and that's helped them be more lethal
the dolphins now boast an excellent secondary with 2 great man-corners (1 who's a bonafide play-maker) and solid safety play and they've added Jevon Holland in the draft who's been another play-maker at safety
but they've also added Jaelan Phillips with a mid-1st rounder (as well as Ogbah in 2020) and suddenly they've got true pressure machines coming off the edges as well as a collection of effective interior defenders that increase their chances of guys finishing - they have a 4 man rush that's capable of winning and getting home - and they use EDGE guys effectively inside (including jaelan phillips) which makes their simulated pressures more effective when they use them
what i think we're missing is a little more specificity with what kinds of blitzes we send (and how we disguise them better - Weddle and CJ were great at this stuff) and better personnel so that we dont have to send them but that when we do it's more likely we get home - Oweh's a massive addition and he's shown flashes of dominance... getting some consistency and further improving his collection of pass rush moves will be crucial but also finding some interior pass rush is critical... be that from a DL or from an EDGE who we move inside in dime like we used to with ZDS and McPhee (back when McPhee was here the first time)
what i will say is don't take Judon's sack totals as anything more than a statistical extrapolation of what he was doing in baltimore - he's playing more snaps and getting more rushes and his sacks are increasing but not dramatically... 9 of his 13 sacks are either low quality or coverage sacks and obviously those sacks have value but he's also playing 20% more snaps than he was in 2020 and the pats are blitzing only 25% of the time rather than the 40%+ of Baltimore - also worth pointing out that the Pats over the last 2-3 weeks have really struggled to create pressure
I think there's some legitimate criticisms you can make of Wink (with regards to historically being inflexible strategically against teams that can negotiate the blitz - and also about how we window-dress those blitzes) but schematically what we're doing works and it's notable that until we had corners dropping like flies in 2021, his defence has been the number 1 scoring defence in the NFL throughout his tenure
there's some need for some adjustment, some self-scouting and also the addition of new and younger personnel to this defensive group to reinvigorate this squad - this defence was designed around Weddle, CJ and Suggs and they all left after 2018 and we never adequately replaced them - the closest we got to replacing any of them was Judon at SAM (and he's gone too)
so either the scheme needs to adapt or we need to find new guys to fill those spots - Queen's a dynamic addition but a very different player to CJ, Chuck's highly intelligent but he's not a play-maker the way Weddle was
what makes you say that it's fundamentally broken? i think we saw the evolution of the defensive strategy for good pressure QBs against Mahomes and the Chiefs in week 2 using a delayed-muddle-rush and dropping 7
there's nothing inherently wrong with the blitzing - i think what needs improving though is the way we set-up and disguise blitzers - at the moment it feels like we rely on the numbers game alone to create pressure which inevitably leaves open spaces and we dont create enough simulated pressure with guys dropping from unexpected spots
what this defence needs is more talent and more youth and some leaders in the middle of the field - don't need a massive overhaul schematically (just some tweaks and some flexibility from matchup to matchup)
UPennChem
Hall of Famer
I think this is the key. It's not broken, but if left totally unchanged, it will be too stale. Some tweaks along with getting healthy and hopefully adding some new young playmaker will help get things back on track.
i want to see us get younger at DL/EDGE and add some young talent at corner
but if we are going to spend some money on an external free agent - i'd like to see it spent on a veteran in the middle of the defence (either at linebacker or safety) - maybe they're moving towards the end of their career a la Eric Weddle or Daryl Smith and they come in at a slight discount because of their age - but who can tie this scheme and this defence together
someone like Bobby Wagner (who's maybe going to be cut this offseason) or Tyrann Mathieu - not saying it has to be them and there's a chance both get paid at the top of the market again but someone in that vein
JoeyFlex5
Hall of Famer
More zone drops and less pressures is what we need, and allowing pass rushers to pin their ears back rather than frequently designing exotic blitzes that have no chance of getting home when there are such wide openings in the coverage.
i think id agree with you that the biggest change i want to see is allowing our EDGE guys (especially the ones who actually line up on the edge) get multiple reps in a row working against the same tackle and not being asked to work stunts so often (as either the force player or the looper) - and i do appreciate that Wink has mostly let Houston work and Bowser is effective on stunts and dropping anyway so nothing lost there
so really this is more about the development of Oweh and letting him get into a rhythm as a pass rusher outside and not moving him around the LoS and reducing him inside so much - tbh i dont even mind stunting oweh while he's still learning but i want to see him stunting from out to in as the looper - i dont love seeing him lined up inside
worth pointing out he's 2nd in pressures among rookies though