The Q4 Heroics, the Tackling, and the Season is Over

[Simba]

After sleeping on it, I am glad they at least blew it now and got a better draft pick out of it vs. telling this same story in the playoffs

 

[JoeyFlex5]

the most frustrating thing about Todd Monken is that he's a legit mad genius with the way he designs certain plays
but then some of the in-game playcalling is the most vanilla shit you've ever seen

hard to rationalise those two sides of him

i do think, in hindsight, most of the criticism of monken disappears if we had a good OL the whole year

It’s like both coordinators get lazy and run an “ask madden” gameplan for 45 minutes of every game

 

[UKRaven1827]

That’s the weird thing

I think Orr is awful. I also think Monken was bad at calling plays. Replacing both seems weird without replacing the head coach. That’s where I am with it.

I think Harbaugh could not be gone. But then I also don’t think his coordinators are good. Or his positional coaches have some major issues. But making such a wholesale change would likely result in him also leaving if you’re making such drastic changes

I think all the above are true.

The reason Harbaugh has to go is because he is the head coach. He sets the culture. This team’s culture is soft. They don’t get it done when it matters. All this “WHOS GOT IT BETTER THAN US” after we beat teams with losing records and passing the buck in the press conferences. We won’t win with him. He’s not the guy. He’s created a losing culture where taking part matters more than winning it feels like.

It’s also true that he has a bad DC. Zach Orr is as bad a coordinator as you will find anywhere in the NFL. His coverages don’t make sense. He can’t call a blitz. He is a ‘Kyle Hamilton merchant’ in every sense of the phrase.

Monken I actually quite like. But he does some really dumb stuff at the worst moments.

But the common denominator every time the Ravens fail is Harbaugh. I’d completely clean house and start fresh.

 

[Simba]

It’s like both coordinators get lazy and run an “ask madden” gameplan for 45 minutes of every game

This probably sums it up. They both have shining moments but it’s so hard to ignore all of the ineptitude that led us to those points.

Like yeah, fake pitch was a beauty. But that doesn’t help me ignore that they ran Derrick Henry into a pile of bodies 13 out of 15 first downs despite them knowing exactly what was coming.

And then on Orr, congrats on finally figuring out how to disguise pressure at the line but also fuck you for rushing 3 and dropping into soft coverage on critical downs like that hasn’t been our kryptonite all year.

No one is perfect but it just feels like we’ve seen the same thing over and over and over without the results.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

@JoeyFlex5 and i have discussed them all a bit already in the draft threads

i would say the mauigoa talk of moving to guard seems like a slam-dunk to me, the fano transition to guard is more up in the air, i think he's a tackle first, joey thinks he's going to be a significantly better guard than tackle

always a chance that with new information (i.e. more tape-watching) that vega moves up the board but right now, to me he's not worth a first round pick, and definitely not worth a top 15 pick

@purplepittabread88 I can’t picture Vega moving up boards. Just too inconsistent. If we hate faalele and vorhees looking lost and confused, getting turned around, not reaching your assignment, and general sloppiness, then we would really hate to see it from a 14th overall pick at G.

Fano is my guy early but like Rossi said he’s seen as a OT until proven otherwise, so that alone might put him out of our range, however if we can get our hands on him, he’s a dude and a legit G/T swing man, and I see him as an elite G.

 

[UPennChem]

We really found a way to waste Lamar's prime and the time we had with Henry

 

[ravenslord]

If you had a choice between Orr or Monken being fired only , I would have to pick Orr. I think Monken will stay and yes he's had some pretty bad games this year but Orr ,geez,he is terrible. If Harbs isn't fired and I don't think he will be, the only coordinator that will get canned is Orr. They won't do both.

 

[rossihunter2]

If Harbaugh is gone or stays we will know on way or another before the end of this week. Steve doesn’t seem like someone who waits to decide and I feel he would have already decided based on Billick a commend Steve previously made about Harbaugh.

I’m really conflicted. All conclusions seem to be that Monken is gone, and I’d agree he was bad at playcalling this year. I think Orr must go. I just can’t see us firing both coordinators and expecting this team to go far next season.

i think if only monken goes, that's the worst possible outcome

he's had issues for sure, but all the "upstart" young prodigies on offensive staffs aren't coming here to be OC unless they're not already playcallers in their current situations (e.g. OCs for offensive playcalling HCs) and that's always going to include significant risk (and idk that Harbs is the kind of guy to take chances on those guys... albeit by some accounts, Dave Canales was the other main candidate outside of Todd Monken for the OC job when he gave Monken the job)

 

[Grim]

If you had a choice between Orr or Monken being fired only , I would have to pick Orr. I think Monken will stay and yes he's had some pretty bad games this year but Orr ,geez,he is terrible. If Harbs isn't fired and I don't think he will be, the only coordinator that will get canned is Orr. They won't do both.

I don’t disagree. At least with the Offense you see flashes. It’s the play calling that is annoying. The designs are often good. I have more confidence in Monken turning it around because he was good but I’ve never seen anything from Orr to give me confidence. Two years in a row his defenses start bad and get “better” is not a good coordinator. If you hire me to do a job and I suck for half of the job and then do average work the remainder then I suck and should be fired

 

[JoeyFlex5]

This probably sums it up. They both have shining moments but it’s so hard to ignore all of the ineptitude that led us to those points.

Like yeah, fake pitch was a beauty. But that doesn’t help me ignore that they ran Derrick Henry into a pile of bodies 13 out of 15 first downs despite them knowing exactly what was coming.

And then on Orr, congrats on finally figuring out how to disguise pressure at the line but also fuck you for rushing 3 and dropping into soft coverage on critical downs like that hasn’t been our kryptonite all year.

No one is perfect but it just feels like we’ve seen the same thing over and over and over without the results.

On monken, I’m good with handing it off on first down as often as we did, sure take 2 of those and make it a play action, a quick hitter that gives us more opportunities to hand it off to Henry. If you have to fall back on feed Henry well that’s a solid plan every time, I’ll die on that hill.

With Orr, I just don’t understand how we’re dropping 8 against a team with no WRs, and there is nobody covering the middle of the field, and freiermuth has wide open inside leverage way downfield and gashes us. How is the game plan for 4 quarters “clear out, dump off to 14” and it continues to work? You call a defense that prioritizes short completions and rallying to tackle, yet you can’t stop a fucking spam of dump offs? And WHY with the free releases? When Hamilton interfered in the back of the endzone, it’s like why, why do you let him free roam up the seam and decide to press cover when the ball is in the air? You were in position to play the ball, and we see it again and again with the free releases absolutely killing us, it’s simple pitch and catch against this defense, just run to green grass and make the catch because the opportunity will ALWAYS be there for at least one guy due to these free releases.

 

[Grim]

i think if only monken goes, that's the worst possible outcome

he's had issues for sure, but all the "upstart" young prodigies on offensive staffs aren't coming here to be OC unless they're not already playcallers in their current situations (e.g. OCs for offensive playcalling HCs) and that's always going to include significant risk (and idk that Harbs is the kind of guy to take chances on those guys... albeit by some accounts, Dave Canales was the other main candidate outside of Todd Monken for the OC job when he gave Monken the job)

I completely agree.

My issue is more that if Harbaugh stays, I think we are more likely to see Monken gone. That’s where bugs me so bad because Orr is by far worse. I am pretty confident there’s no way we can do worse at coordinator.

 

[OURavensFan]

It’s 9:20 and we haven’t fired Harbaugh yet

 

[rossihunter2]

That’s the weird thing

I think Orr is awful. I also think Monken was bad at calling plays. Replacing both seems weird without replacing the head coach. That’s where I am with it.

I think Harbaugh could not be gone. But then I also don’t think his coordinators are good. Or his positional coaches have some major issues. But making such a wholesale change would likely result in him also leaving if you’re making such drastic changes

for me there has to be wholesale changes even if Harbs survives:

on offence (not including Todd Monken):
George Warhop needs replacing
George Godsey needs replacing (because he's taken an OC job)
i think there's a few other guys like Willie Taggart and Travis Switzer who could be in danger too

defence seems a bit less clear cut on a positional basis but for 2 years we've had to lean heavily on Dean Pees and Chuck Pagano and that's not good enough for an organisation that used to have a conveyer belt of talented defensive coaches - we've still not recovered from the brain drain when Mike Macdonald and all the positional guys moved on

 

[JoeyFlex5]

i think if only monken goes, that's the worst possible outcome

he's had issues for sure, but all the "upstart" young prodigies on offensive staffs aren't coming here to be OC unless they're not already playcallers in their current situations (e.g. OCs for offensive playcalling HCs) and that's always going to include significant risk (and idk that Harbs is the kind of guy to take chances on those guys... albeit by some accounts, Dave Canales was the other main candidate outside of Todd Monken for the OC job when he gave Monken the job)

Give us an OL, and if Harbaugh and monken stay, Harbaugh needs to grow a set of nuts and establish an identity, be systemic about it, hammer into monkens head that a certain style of offense helps keep us in rhythm and that’s a good thing, and that demanding Lamar be Superman all time is unsustainable. More quick hitters, more dump offs, less of the varied formations and alignments and do more to make the defense honest, and stress less high-low reads to keep us ahead of schedule and give us more shots.

 

[Deebo813]

This shit crazy lol

 

[Simba]

On monken, I’m good with handing it off on first down as often as we did, sure take 2 of those and make it a play action, a quick hitter that gives us more opportunities to hand it off to Henry. If you have to fall back on feed Henry well that’s a solid plan every time, I’ll die on that hill.

With Orr, I just don’t understand how we’re dropping 8 against a team with no WRs, and there is nobody covering the middle of the field, and freiermuth has wide open inside leverage way downfield and gashes us. How is the game plan for 4 quarters “clear out, dump off to 14” and it continues to work? You call a defense that prioritizes short completions and rallying to tackle, yet you can’t stop a fucking spam of dump offs? And WHY with the free releases? When Hamilton interfered in the back of the endzone, it’s like why, why do you let him free roam up the seam and decide to press cover when the ball is in the air? You were in position to play the ball, and we see it again and again with the free releases absolutely killing us, it’s simple pitch and catch against this defense, just run to green grass and make the catch because the opportunity will ALWAYS be there for at least one guy due to these free releases.

I don’t mind the idea of it, but you also had the looks. If we’re equating this to Madden again… I see I have 2 or 3 guys outside with 1v1 looks consistently, I’m checking into a play that can beat that.

Offensively, I think I’m mostly frustrated by the all or nothing approach we seem to take. It’s rarely in rhythm with the game. Always feels like it’s either run Henry to death or forget he exists and live with the consequences when it’s crunch time.

To be clear though, I think we should just be gutting the whole staff. I’m not sticking up for Orr by any means. Just don’t think Todd is the future at this point either.

 

[Deebo813]

Give us an OL, and if Harbaugh and monken stay, Harbaugh needs to grow a set of nuts and establish an identity, be systemic about it, hammer into monkens head that a certain style of offense helps keep us in rhythm and that’s a good thing, and that demanding Lamar be Superman all time is unsustainable. More quick hitters, more dump offs, less of the varied formations and alignments and do more to make the defense honest, and stress less high-low reads to keep us ahead of schedule and give us more shots.

Its gonna be same shit next season with them two if they both stay

 

[rossihunter2]

Now following up on the team not doing anything well.

Decosta fucked this team before the season even started. He did not make the team better first of all. It was obviously a little worse than 2024. And in the NFL even if you're staying the same, you're getting worse. So the dip in performance isn't even remotely surprising.

Then on top of the team being worse, dude AGAIN did nothing to address the OL or pass rush. The most important position groups outside of QB.

only OL he had available to him in the draft that would have made a difference was Josh Simmons
he drafted Mike Green in R2

the free agency group wasn't great but he's also been really good the previous years at finding cheap veteran EDGE and OL - those guys just didn't pan out this year - shit happens

just because it didnt work 1 time, doesn't mean you throw the whole process out the window

you're not going to see wholesale changes to the OL next year unless Linderbaum isn't retained - Emery Jones is the favourite for 1 of the OG spots which means that you're really only looking at 1 likely outside addition to the starting 5 OL next year - and don't be surprised if that addition isn't a 1st round pick or high-priced free agent

i do expect him to address EDGE this offseason - DL too if Madubuike's career really is in jeopardy

but also, again, don't be surprised if we invest a surprising amount of capital at WR or CB

 

[rmcjacket23]

Thoughts on the game:
1. Loop. Yikes.
2. Defense once again makes no plays in critical spots. The 3rd and 8 conversion to Freirmeuth might have been one of the worst defensive schematic calls I've ever seen. Made no sense.
3. Offense comes out of the game looking great, except they did nothing for like 2.5 quarters of the game. Lamar Jackson may as well have not even been on the field for 2nd and 3rd quarters. I was secretly hoping I could bash the boards today with the whole "he just run it with Henry 30 times and we're guaranteed to win nonsense", because it showed that running the ball effectively doesn't mean TOP dominance or scoring points (which is the point of playing offense).

Offseason thoughts:
1. John is staying
2. They can't keep Orr. He just sucks.
3. The organization from the top needs to rethink it's entire philosophy defensively. It's 100% OK to be average on run D in the NFL. The playoffs are loaded with them. Stop making so many investments in NTs and ILBs. Pass rushers. Need lots of them. Keep the defensive young and fast. I'd probably be doing through assessments of the older vets (Marlon, Roquan, etc.) and probably moving off of some or all of them. Dead $ shouldn't be a consideration (if you're a smart GM) if there's actual cap savings. The more innovative teams aren't afraid of dead cap.
4. I think the offense maybe need another playmaker in the draft, but obviously just getting a couple interior lineman will boost it up.

In terms of players to keep, beyond a Lamar and possibly Flowers extension, I'm not sure I care that much. Linderbaum maybe, but if they were to divert his $ to a quality pass rusher, I wouldn't lose any sleep. I'm not sure I'm trying to keep Dre'Mont Jones either, but if he's affordable maybe he's a keeper.

You've got Mads (probably), Jones, two cheap, young linebackers, Hamilton, Starks and Wiggins. It's a decent nucleus. You need pass rushers and playmakers at the front and back.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I don’t mind the idea of it, but you also had the looks. If we’re equating this to Madden again… I see I have 2 or 3 guys outside with 1v1 looks consistently, I’m checking into a play that can beat that.

Offensively, I think I’m mostly frustrated by the all or nothing approach we seem to take. It’s rarely in rhythm with the game. Always feels like it’s either run Henry to death or forget he exists and live with the consequences when it’s crunch time.

To be clear though, I think we should just be gutting the whole staff. I’m not sticking up for Orr by any means. Just don’t think Todd is the future at this point either.

Exactly this. Why is it so hard to incorporate the run game in the pass game and vice verse? It’s why I don’t like monkens offense by design, all year long I’ve said you gotta be able to pass out of your run personnel because this OL isn’t built to take on a heavy rush 40+ times a game, but no if we have run personnel, we’re running it 99% of the time, and if we have pass personnel, we either pass or run in a long developing, option(or option look), and it’s underblocked and typically gets blown tf up