and Proche and Duvernay didn't even get an offseason.
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- Thread starter RavensMania
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Even with an offseason, it wouldnt have helped duvernay.. from his college tape and those 1vs1 drills i saw, he couldnt get open unless he ran free off the line.. more than one offseason and more experience is the only thing that could help with that.. imo he is simply a gadget player till or if he improves..
JoeyFlex5
Hall of Famer
Probably Kwity Paye or some shit
JoeyFlex5
Hall of Famer
Duvernay still has a LOT of developing to do and frankly I’m not sold that he’s physically capable of being any more than a gadget or manufactured type of player, he just doesn’t break sudden or sharp, like ever, and he looks labored trying to do it and he has since college, just stiff in the hips.
that said, he’s well deserving of manufactured touches and shame on Roman if that doesn’t happen much more often this year
yes, he definitely needs more than one offseason, but my point was he needs time to develop and it really hurt him losing that critical time and as @JoeyFlex5 said above, it may never happen. Also agree that he needs to be involved in the game more than just scripted plays at the beginning of the half and in the beginning of the game. That's all on Roman.
rmcjacket23
Ravens Ring of Honor
I think that's sort of where I'm headed...
If I'm Eric, I'm pretty close to telling the coaching staff and the QB that it's on them, and they're not getting any more resources. I think there's enough "talent" between FA acquisitions and draft picks on this roster that they can have an at least average passing game, and an average passing game on this roster should be competing for Lombardi's.
I know fans will probably laugh quite a bit at this, but I do NOT see a gigantic difference in offensive skill position talent between the Ravens and the Chiefs. I see drastic coaching differences, and I see drastic QB differences. I think Hill and Kelce are better than Brown and Andrews, but I don't think the gap is that significant. I guess last years Chiefs had Watkins and Hardman, who were better than what we had, but I'm not even certain they're that big a factors in that offense either, and I don't see why Duvernay can't be comparable to Hardman in a lot of ways.
And I'm not the guy that's going to say that firing Roman is the solution either, because play callers like Andy Reid don't just fall off trees, and I think we can do worse as an overall OC. But I don't think we are that far away from a level where adding more heads just doesn't translate into winning more games from a WR perspective. I think coaching and development at that position has to improve dramatically, and I think the QBs ability to develop these receivers needs to improve. I never thought Joe was great at that, and I think the jury is still out on how good Lamar is at it.
The reality, to me, is that its damn near impossible to miss on all of the receivers we drafted and it be just a "talent evaluation" issue or a "we don't draft enough" issue. It takes a whole house full of not being good at developing players to be this bad for this long. And so assuming we draft another WR before the end of day 2 next weekend, this GM will have given our roster four WRs in the first three rounds in the last three years. There's no way anybody can sell me that's lack of effort.
i think the difference between hollywood and andrews could be closer to hill and kelce than it would seem for sure - but last year there was a massive gap between those 2 guys
but the other point you make is way more important - yes we can compare the top 2 guys but the chiefs had 3 other guys in their receiving corps (not including CEH) who last year would probably have started here and this year 1 of them will...
watkins, hardman and robinson as your 3rd, 4th and 5th receiver (maybe even 6th with edwards-helaire higher in the pecking order before he got injured) is massive
ive been advocating since the season closed, not worrying necessarily about getting "the" guy but about getting multiple guys
we now have hollywood, andrews and watkins which is a nice start and i definitely think that duvernay can offer some of what hardman offers too but it would be great if we could add another guy - now maybe proche can step up and do that for us but we cant rely on that...
but i do think that there's clear upgrades that can be made - and i somewhat see WR a little like i see IOL - there's not much point adding depth pieces because we've got tons of "depth" guys, we're looking for an impact player who can and will contribute early - in the same way we have mekari, powers, phillips, bredeson and TCC we've got duvernay, proche and boykin - im perfectly ok with those guys being at the back end of the roster as guys with limited ceilings or as developmental guys but not guys you want playing a ton of significant reps for you
the other point RE the receiving corps is that hollywood's 5'9 and both watkins and andrews have had some injury problems (watkins moreso than andrews) so adding another guy who can start would be massively helpful both as an instant contributor but also as insurance
We’re budget Chiefs without the depth. We definitely have the pieces to emulate that style, but we need better tertiary options now and some more intricate and creative play calling. It’s both. Personnel is weaker but the personnel also isn’t being used as well as they could.
watching the chiefs it really is interesting seeing the similarities - both offences are philosophically similar in the way they're taking advantages of various matchups using motion but the ravens have been doing it in the running game and the chiefs in the passing game
but it's interesting - there are a lot of plays (at least pre-snap) that look and operate very similarly but often out of different kinds of personnel - and the ravens dont execute as well in the passing game as the chiefs do - but lots of similar looking play designs
rmcjacket23
Ravens Ring of Honor
Right, but for me, the reason why the "depth comparables" aren't particularly great is because their depth gets about the same usage as ours does. Brown and Andrews got 48% of the target share in 2020. Hill and Kelce got 46%. Both teams are leaning very heavily on their two biggest offensive weapons to make plays in the passing game.
Like Hardman and Snead have very similar usages. Hardman gets more targets because the Chiefs throw the ball more. If Hardman was in Baltimore last year, do I think he gets 80-90 targets? No chance in hell.
Now, the Chiefs aren't the only offensive team in this league, and other teams spread the ball around a lot more than they do and than we do. And I agree that's probably the best route to take... stop putting 50% of your passing game elements on two players.
But the point is to show that other teams, who do have explosive passing attacks, do, in fact, use distributions that heavily favor 2 players in an offense, and they're much more successful in doing so. And for me, that's not a talent issue. That's a coaching, scheming, and QB execution issue.
Absolutely. We are super creative in the run game. Now we need to bring that to the passing game. It's also an execution thing. It's also a personnel thing. The whole thing needs to come together to match even part of what the Chiefs are able to do.
But we're clearly building a similar roster of weapons and I'm curious to see if we get that "final" piece come next week.
Hill = Brown
Kelce = Andrews
Hardman = Duvernay
Watkins = Watkins
Robinson = ???
Obviously our guys aren't quite as good but you can see the thought process.
very notable also that both the ravens and chiefs were very interested in juju - neither team has a player like him in their receiving corps
and in 2020 both added high picks at RB to the rosters too
the problem for the ravens is that while the difference between all those weapons isn't necessarily massive between each individual - it is notable and it is the same for each one...
hill is better than brown
kelce is better than andrews
hardman is better than duvernay (so far)
so it would make sense that the ravens are looking for a high quality addition to make up some of that difference - i think it was pretty clear that both teams foresaw juju in that watkins role
but i am confused about the ty hilton offer - maybe he would have been the "robinson" and then we'd be looking for the watkins... that's my best guess
And the good thing is that we don't necessarily have to be better at each spot in the weaponry. Our run game and defense are better, which should help make up for those deficiencies in the weapons. If we can bring the passing game to an NFL level with some semblance of consistency, then we could be a really difficult team to beat.
rmcjacket23
Ravens Ring of Honor
And I generally agree with this. And then comes the real difference to me...
Reid >>>>>>>> Roman, at least from a pass game/game-planning standpoint
Mahomes >>> Lamar, in terms of being a passer
I don't think the Chiefs have a better "front office" than we do either, i.e. I don't think they're not better at talent evaluation, salary cap, roster construction, scouting, etc.
I think there are actually quite a lot of things the Ravens are better at than KC than KC is better at than Baltimore. The only unit on their team I'd probably trade, straight up, is their Dline, which is one of the better in the league.
But the two bolded differences, to me, is what separates these two teams.
No disagreement there either. The Chiefs have a lot of guys who work really well together... almost a perfect storm of sorts. All of that talent works together and may not be the same as individual parts. But they've also spent a lot of money keeping those weapons together, which is why we're kind of the budget version in two ways... from a talent standpoint and from a cap standpoint, at least for now. And that's where the difference is to me, as I alluded to above. We don't have to be as good as them in the passing game. We probably have them beat mostly everywhere else. But now we need to get the consistency in our passing game. It has to be a threat but doesn't have to be the main function of this team as it's constructed.
BoredMarine13
Ravens Ring of Honor
We are absolutely drafting a WR early(Rd 1-3)All this talk about being happy with the progress of our current group is a smoke screen. You don’t offer 9 million to Ju Ju if you believe the guys in house can get the job done.
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They know Sammy isn't a long term solution. Hollywood is the only guy with any type of long term standing in the WR room right now. They know they need to get better and they're going to take another shot at it.
We shouldnt be comparing kc offense to ours.. hollywood
chris jones is legit the only guy on their dline though.. i wouldnt want that at all tbh over our guys.. id probably take tyrann, cause i do not like our safties at all..
It dnt matter if we actually had kelce and hill, we still wouldnt come close to what those guys are doing over there lol..