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rmcjacket23 said:
OK, but who's being cheated?
The cheating argument only really holds up to comparing people across years or eras. People are only outraged about MLB players using HGH because it gave them advantages over guys like Babe Ruth and others who didn't have such benefits of modern science, nutrition and medicine. If everybody within a certain era has access to the same drugs and has the opportunity, equally, to partake in them (which would occur if it was simply legalized in sports), then there's no cheating argument possible, because there's no unfair advantage to anybody. The unfair advantage is created by a) rules prohibiting its usage, thus making the risk/reward lopsided and b) fans having an oddly weird obsession with comparing athletes across eras, which never made any sense.

In particular, I find the whole "cheating" argument laughably bad when it comes to the NFL. Fans encourage and cheer on angry, dangerous, sometimes maniac players who are the size of mac trucks. We like vicious hitting, we like watching human beings inflict severe bodily harm on others, but somehow we've conjured up this ignorant line of thinking, where there's a "moral line" being crossed by using PEDs to recover from injury or increase performance. Never quite passed the smell test for me.

In the end, I don't think anybody honestly cares about PED usage in the NFL. I go back a decade or so again to Brian Cushing. He wins defensive rookie of the year in 2009, after a dominant season. Everybody and their mother looked at him and thought he was using PED's. Sure enough, 5 months later, he tests positive for hCG, and gets a four game suspension. The Associated Press, who gives the reward, subsequently allowed their voters to re-cast their ballots for DROY, knowing that Cushing likely wasn't clean while he won the award. He was voted DROY again, even after the fact. And this is from the AP, an organization that was notoriously tough on PED users in MLB and others sports in the past, and includes voters who vote for the MLB HOF.

The hypocrisy there isn't something that should be easily ignored.
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its those non-cheating fellow athletes that are being cheated - nothing to do with stuff across eras
it's not a moral thing either - it's about competitive advantages that are unfairly created
 
BloodRaven said:
The only 2 questions about Marlon should be "Is he earning his 20 million a year paycheck?"

And if the answer is no then the follow up question should be "Why the fuck not?"
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Not even close is he earning that paycheck this year and my eyes tell me he seems a step slow this year. Am I wrong about this?
 
ravenslord said:
Not even close is he earning that paycheck this year and my eyes tell me he seems a step slow this year. Am I wrong about this?
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yes - literally only difference is the lack of fumbles and him being in the vicinity of some coverage busts (only 1 of which i think was actually on him iirc) - he had the horrible game against the bengals but that's about it

we're consistently using him to erase the opposing offence's most important 3rd down threat and he's been great at it
 
rossihunter2 said:
yes - literally only difference is the lack of fumbles and him being in the vicinity of some coverage busts (only 1 of which i think was actually on him iirc) - he had the horrible game against the bengals but that's about it

we're consistently using him to erase the opposing offence's most important 3rd down threat and he's been great at it
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I don't think he is playing at a Pro Bowl level and has been a disappointment this year. I'm not saying he is a bad player. Hes a good, sometimes very good player. I just don't think he is excelling this year.
 
ravenslord said:
I don't think he is playing at a Pro Bowl level and has been a disappointment this year. I'm not saying he is a bad player. Hes a good, sometimes very good player. I just don't think he is excelling this year.
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in what way do you not think he's doing well?
because im consistently seeing him lock guys down...
 
Here's a compelling stat on Marlon. Receptions allowed last year he was 7th best through the entire season

This year he is ranked 38th best thus far in receptions allowed.
 
ravenslord said:
Here's a compelling stat on Marlon. Receptions allowed last year he was 7th best through the entire season

This year he is ranked 38th best thus far in receptions allowed.
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i mean i just looked and the completion percentage when he's been targeted is the lowest it's been since 2018... 22nd in the league

the 2 real differences i can see that would give you the impression that he's not playing well come down to a couple of things is my guess:
  1. he's being targeted at a higher rate than in any previous season - partly that's because he's shadowing the number 1 weapon on critical downs this year when he didnt always have to in previous years
  2. he had that one awful game where jamarr chase and cj uzomah cooked him multiple times for multiple big plays - something like 2/5 of the yardage he's given up this year came in that 1 game - and it means his yards/completion is the highest of his career
  3. he's not created any turnovers

he's been in tougher assignments than basically any corner in the league because he's consistently matched up against the opposition's top weapon and more often than any other corner in the league he's left 1v1 in man on an island and he plays the slot more than the majority of the best corners in the league
 
rossihunter2 said:
i mean i just looked and the completion percentage when he's been targeted is the lowest it's been since 2018... 22nd in the league

the 2 real differences i can see that would give you the impression that he's not playing well come down to a couple of things is my guess:
  1. he's being targeted at a higher rate than in any previous season - partly that's because he's shadowing the number 1 weapon on critical downs this year when he didnt always have to in previous years
  2. he had that one awful game where jamarr chase and cj uzomah cooked him multiple times for multiple big plays - something like 2/5 of the yardage he's given up this year came in that 1 game - and it means his yards/completion is the highest of his career
  3. he's not created any turnovers

he's been in tougher assignments than basically any corner in the league because he's consistently matched up against the opposition's top weapon and more often than any other corner in the league he's left 1v1 in man on an island and he plays the slot more than the majority of the best corners in the league
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38th in receptions allowed is not a good look .
 
rossihunter2 said:
i mean i just looked and the completion percentage when he's been targeted is the lowest it's been since 2018... 22nd in the league

the 2 real differences i can see that would give you the impression that he's not playing well come down to a couple of things is my guess:
  1. he's being targeted at a higher rate than in any previous season - partly that's because he's shadowing the number 1 weapon on critical downs this year when he didnt always have to in previous years
  2. he had that one awful game where jamarr chase and cj uzomah cooked him multiple times for multiple big plays - something like 2/5 of the yardage he's given up this year came in that 1 game - and it means his yards/completion is the highest of his career
  3. he's not created any turnovers

he's been in tougher assignments than basically any corner in the league because he's consistently matched up against the opposition's top weapon and more often than any other corner in the league he's left 1v1 in man on an island and he plays the slot more than the majority of the best corners in the league
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He also gets paid more than every corner in the league except for Jalen Ramsey, it's expected that he can do all those things and not get torched by a rookie.
 
rossihunter2 said:
its those non-cheating fellow athletes that are being cheated - nothing to do with stuff across eras
it's not a moral thing either - it's about competitive advantages that are unfairly created
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But if they have access to the same treatments, and decline to take them voluntarily, then it's not an unfair advantage. It's purely choice.
 
BloodRaven said:
He also gets paid more than every corner in the league except for Jalen Ramsey, it's expected that he can do all those things and not get torched by a rookie.
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that same rookie who's torched everyone and has been destroying NFL records...
like obviously not great in one game but idk what more people expect?

no one is darrelle revis in the modern NFL - it's basically impossible to be as lockdown as he was during his peak because of the way offences play now and because of the rules

and the reason why marlon gets paid that much is because he's asked to do more in tougher scenarios than basically every other corner in the league... even jalen ramsey - he gets paid that much because he can do all of that stuff

if you put marlon in a scheme like the old seattle cover 3 you'd basically never see marlon get beat...

most teams dont play the amount of press man (or man generally) that the ravens do - we put marlon in chase position with his back to the QB in the middle of the field with a 2-way go against all different body types with no safety cover - it literally cannot get harder than that from a coverage standpoint and we ask that of marlon all the time

he's also grading out higher than most of the similarly paid corners - so which ones is he underperforming against other than Jalen Ramsey?
 
ravenslord said:
It was either PFF or PFR
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ive found it - PFF - worth pointing out that those rankings are in reverse to the way you'd think

so that's not 38th least that's 38th most...

Jalen Ramsey has more allowed and is ranked 15th...
xavien howard has allowed more and is ranked 12th...
tre white has allowed more and is ranked 33rd

worth pointing out then that marlon has been targeted more than all 3 of those guys and yet has given up fewer receptions
 
rmcjacket23 said:
But if they have access to the same treatments, and decline to take them voluntarily, then it's not an unfair advantage. It's purely choice.
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right but they are illegal so it's not an equal access so that's a useless hypothetical because if you allow PEDs then you endorse another layer of competition whereby you then have another area for the creation of competitive advantage to create the best PEDs for your athletes etc.

and then you have competitive advantages completely based around access to those PEDs and access to treatment and healthcare and all those things has never been equal in any sport across all athletes in a discipline

thus the easiest way to equalise that playing field is to have anti-doping rules with strict and specific guidelines on what is and what isnt legal which leaves no grey areas

the NFL is much more lenient vs other athletic federations and governing bodies - in many cases PEDs mean you have to forfeit medals or championships won (even in team sports) and end in life-time or at least multi-year suspensions (not multi-week like the NFL)
 
BloodRaven said:
He also gets paid more than every corner in the league except for Jalen Ramsey, it's expected that he can do all those things and not get torched by a rookie.
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Lets just give jamarr chase his due respect lol, he will probably be the best receiver in the league for the next decade, he is spectacular and the entire defense was on some absolute bullshit that day
 
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