The Good, The Bad and The Ugly - Browns Edition

[JoeyFlex5]

Just to add some to the discussion.

For play action, it isn't predicated on the threat of a run game. Defenses aren't going, "Is the running back a good running back?" I mean, it probably helps to have someone like Chubb over Freeman, but even a back like Freeman can bust a long one against an undisciplined defense.

Play action is designed to prey on disciplined defenses because the defense reads a hat and then works their eyes into the backfield. They're going to read the offensive line putting their head down and stepping downhill and then read the "handoff." If this is sold like a real running play, it's going to be effective play action regardless of how well the running game is working because defenses are reading keys, not box scores.

Funny enough, Greg Roman actually feels like a key to the play action fake being successful is a pulling guard. That's not a common tactic, but it's one Roman believes in.

As for making adjustments in game- that's a really overrated talking point. Halftime adjustments are exceedingly difficult because you have to be able to review what went wrong, come up with what will work, and then change your gameplan in under 15 minutes. Then, you have to relay it all to your team.

Teams spend all week preparing a set of plays and a gameplan for the team they are facing that week. If things go south, it isn't feasible to scrap what you did all week and implement a new gameplan in 15 minutes.

Just two pieces of food for thought.

Agreed with this. Play action is the only time Lamar has a clean pocket and the run game has been dogshit all year, it works to slow down the rush, and it does hold the LBs long enough because NFL LBs are humans and they react to what their eyes see, if they’re assigned to blitz it will be less likely to deter them from their assignment but if they have a responsibility to read the keys and then either zone drop or gap plug, they will take the gap plug first, it works without a good run game.

where the run game sets up the pass isnt about play action effectiveness, it’s about personnel groupings, if you can run the ball, you now force the defense into a base personnel, which you can exploit with athletic TEs and moving receivers around to get favorable matchups against a LB. The play action is just a cherry on top and when you’re passing out of a balanced personnel group there’s little reason to not run play action.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I don't see much need to go under center if Lamar's not comfortable with it.

Certainly has it's advantages (passing becomes tied to footwork with each read, running backs get a head start when rushing), but if Lamar isn't comfortable under center, what can you do?

I don’t like running from under center too much, because it nearly eliminates our most dangerous weapon, but I do like some of our passing and boot concepts, Lamar seems to have a knack for the boot>fb flat in the red zone, would’ve had another score on it if Myles Garrett wasn’t so spectacular

 

[redrum52]

How has Broderick Washington looked?

 

[rossihunter2]

They can make changes within the design of their gameplan for that week's game, but I think some people get this idea that they're going to see brand new plays or brand new schemes out of the team after half and it just doesn't work that way. They planned all week. Drastic changes aren't made in under 15 minutes.

Of course - when I say they adjust well it’s me referring to them analysing what they have in the gameplan and how the defence is playing them and picking out plays accordingly (which seems obvious anyway lol)

but worth pointing out that Roman recently talked about not bothering with scripted plays to begin the games anymore because many teams change up their entire defensive look when they play us

 

[rossihunter2]

Should probably be a point of development in the off-season then

I mean maybe but not really - it completely takes away the threat of Lamar as a runner except as a boot option which seems to be the opposite of what you want from our running game

 

[rossihunter2]

How has Broderick Washington looked?

Wasn’t paying that much attention but think he was pretty solid - had at least 1 rep where he bench pressed someone into the backfield

 

[Simba]

How has Broderick Washington looked?

Still limited opportunities but he was doing a lot of what Wolfe was doing last year. He’s not making the plays or stuffing the stat book but he’s holding strong, moving down the line, occupying blockers, etc. so other guys can make the plays. Looks like a very solid rotational piece for us going forward who can spot start if we need it.

 

[marklar]

Baker is injured and we have the best run defense in nfl. Shit im banking on them going after wrs and even maybe a qb this offseason

I'll counter with Roman getting an at least somewhat-working offense with scrapheap RBs, Snoop at QB and an OTs who aren't much more than scrapheap themselves.

Anyways, my main point was towards the "fire Roman, get a creating mind"-crowd and that to find a prince (McVay?), you have to kiss a lot of frogs (Trestman, Gase, Kittens). So, if the Ravens were indeed to fire Roman, I'd give it a better than average chance we get someone worse. Roman has engineered a historical rushing offense for 2 years and this years we're seeing signs of a competent passing offense, but no one could have predicted that we'd have no RBs and a sieve OL for passblocking, so it is hard to do wonders with what we have.

 

[OURavensFan]

They can make changes within the design of their gameplan for that week's game, but I think some people get this idea that they're going to see brand new plays or brand new schemes out of the team after half and it just doesn't work that way. They planned all week. Drastic changes aren't made in under 15 minutes.

The manning brothers enjoyed mocking that sentiment a few weeks back, that there’s magical halftime adjustments that can change games. There are obviously some tweaks that happen where the effect is observed in the second half

 

[UPennChem]

I'll counter with Roman getting an at least somewhat-working offense with scrapheap RBs, Snoop at QB and an OTs who aren't much more than scrapheap themselves.

Anyways, my main point was towards the "fire Roman, get a creating mind"-crowd and that to find a prince (McVay?), you have to kiss a lot of frogs (Trestman, Gase, Kittens). So, if the Ravens were indeed to fire Roman, I'd give it a better than average chance we get someone worse. Roman has engineered a historical rushing offense for 2 years and this years we're seeing signs of a competent passing offense, but no one could have predicted that we'd have no RBs and a sieve OL for passblocking, so it is hard to do wonders with what we have.

You're not wrong but I think you're missing the point of what we're trying to say. It's not to say GRo is just some guy and easily replaceable. Not at all. It's to say he's a rushing game genius with very specific tendencies. For the first time in his tenure here, he has been largely unable to rely on those strengths or tendencies through no fault of his own. The point is simply that given that the whole offensive outlook is different, we need him to come to terms with it a little faster and help coach up the players and call better plays for the situations we're going to be in. We need to find a way to get positive yards on first down. We're not great at that right now. We need to find a way to not be in 3rd and long every drive. We're quite bad in those situations. We need to not have our own receivers running into each other on passing plays. These are things Roman can tweak with to get better results. This is not a fire GRo campaign. It's begging him to stop calling plays that haven't worked even once all year like option pitches to Freeman on the outside and to coach up Lamar and the WRs on how to deal with cover 0 looks. Not leave bum ass AV on an island etc etc.

 

[rossihunter2]

You're not wrong but I think you're missing the point of what we're trying to say. It's not to say GRo is just some guy and easily replaceable. Not at all. It's to say he's a rushing game genius with very specific tendencies. For the first time in his tenure here, he has been largely unable to rely on those strengths or tendencies through no fault of his own. The point is simply that given that the whole offensive outlook is different, we need him to come to terms with it a little faster and help coach up the players and call better plays for the situations we're going to be in. We need to find a way to get positive yards on first down. We're not great at that right now. We need to find a way to not be in 3rd and long every drive. We're quite bad in those situations. We need to not have our own receivers running into each other on passing plays. These are things Roman can tweak with to get better results. This is not a fire GRo campaign. It's begging him to stop calling plays that haven't worked even once all year like option pitches to Freeman on the outside and to coach up Lamar and the WRs on how to deal with cover 0 looks. Not leave bum ass AV on an island etc etc.

when this offence was rolling in the first 6 weeks or so, we were the best offence in the league mostly because we hardly ever even got to 3rd down because we were so efficient on 1st and 2nd down

we’ve sucked on 3rd down all year (and with our OL and RB corps the way it is that’s unlikely to change much either) - the difference now is that we’re also not getting into good positions on early downs either

with our tackle situation it’s untenable for us to get into obvious passing situations where edge guys can just tee off

 

[UPennChem]

when this offence was rolling in the first 6 weeks or so, we were the best offence in the league mostly because we hardly ever even got to 3rd down because we were so efficient on 1st and 2nd down

we’ve sucked on 3rd down all year (and with our OL and RB corps the way it is that’s unlikely to change much either) - the difference now is that we’re also not getting into good positions on early downs either

with our tackle situation it’s untenable for us to get into obvious passing situations where edge guys can just tee off

I completely agree. It's not even a situation where we like to say they just need to play better. It's not possible with the talent on the bookends. Therefore we need to find ways to be more productive on early downs.

 

[RavensMania]

I'll counter with Roman getting an at least somewhat-working offense with scrapheap RBs, Snoop at QB and an OTs who aren't much more than scrapheap themselves.

Anyways, my main point was towards the "fire Roman, get a creating mind"-crowd and that to find a prince (McVay?), you have to kiss a lot of frogs (Trestman, Gase, Kittens). So, if the Ravens were indeed to fire Roman, I'd give it a better than average chance we get someone worse. Roman has engineered a historical rushing offense for 2 years and this years we're seeing signs of a competent passing offense, but no one could have predicted that we'd have no RBs and a sieve OL for passblocking, so it is hard to do wonders with what we have.

I doubt we fire Greg Roman and I don't want to see him fired, but if we decided to go outside the organization and not promote from within, Pep Hamilton should be available. Pep Hamilton is currently the QB coach and passing game coordinator. If we hired from within, we could consider Urban or one of the new assistants we brought in this offseason.

 

[rossihunter2]

I doubt we fire Greg Roman and I don't want to see him fired, but if we decided to go outside the organization and not promote from within, Pep Hamilton should be available. Pep Hamilton is currently the QB coach and passing game coordinator. If we hired from within, we could consider Urban or one of the new assistants we brought in this offseason.

why would you want pep hamilton of all people?

 

[RavensMania]

It doesn't matter if you disagree; it's how teams are taught to make their defensive reads.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2018/rushing-success-and-play-action-passing

Here's a pretty detailed article that calls into question that idea that the run game must be effective for play action to work. I know there are other articles, but they all make the same claim- you don't need this explosive running game to be a good play action team. You just need to be able to effectively fake your intentions.

yep, the rule of thumb that a running game needs to be successful has been proven wrong for years now. I remember that article. Thanks for posting.

 

[RavensMania]

why would you want pep hamilton of all people?

I'd prefer to stay in house over Pep Hamilton, but I've liked him in the past. He has done a good job with both Luck and Herbert in the past and that's the only reason I brought him up. Not even sure who would be available outside of the Ravens organization.

 

[rossihunter2]

another wired

 

[Nurps]

another wired

"The season that "easy" forgot" lol. Love it.