2018 Forum Mock: Discussion Thread

[Giants56Ravens52]

For what it’s worth, a longer time to initiate a bid off was in place a couple of years back, and I can confirm Truth’s words in that it was a “shitshow.”

But why are people who haven't bid on a player prior to the final hour or so allowed to basically swoop in at the last minute and steal players from anyone who cannot be online at that exact minute to see that there was a bid on a player they had a bid on? It invalidates the entire period until that point. Especially without any kind of notification, it makes it so players cannot respond at all to it.

 

[Giants56Ravens52]

It should be a final hour, and nobody who didn't bid on a player with a bid prior to that hour is allowed to bid on that player at all anymore. They can still bid on players that nobody has bid on in that hour. Players then get a certain # of hours to respond to wanting a bidoff if it applies, and submit their bids with some limit of time prior to the next FA pool. It would be a simple change, and would not involve any extra time or effort.

 

[Simba]

But why are people who haven't bid on a player prior to the final hour or so allowed to basically swoop in at the last minute and steal players from anyone who cannot be online at that exact minute to see that there was a bid on a player they had a bid on? It invalidates the entire period until that point. Especially without any kind of notification, it makes it so players cannot respond at all to it.

I think that’s the flaw in the FA system as a whole. There’s never a true time deadline for when a player signs unless it’s self-imposed and that’s a rarity. Where the change needs to happen is to entice people to get their max bid (or close to it) in right out of the gate instead of swooping in at the end. That’s how FA is supposed to work. If I offered Von Miller 1 Star in real life, his agent would tell me never to call back. I think that comes with eliminating an ending time to a FA period all together but that’s obviously a much larger discussion.

 

[Giants56Ravens52]

I think that’s the flaw in the FA system as a whole. There’s never a true time deadline for when a player signs unless it’s self-imposed and that’s a rarity. Where the change needs to happen is to entice people to get their max bid (or close to it) in right out of the gate instead of swooping in at the end. That’s how FA is supposed to work. If I offered Von Miller 1 Star in real life, his agent would tell me never to call back. I think that comes with eliminating an ending time to a FA period all together but that’s obviously a much larger discussion.

I agree with that, but to only give 15 minutes to request a bid-off and no way of knowing that you lost out on a player if you're not there since you don't have to tag or message them? No way to replace the player with another FA because that position's period is over? It makes no sense

 

[Giants56Ravens52]

I'm done. I'm going back to work. If it changes to a fair system, great. If not, well we know why.

 

[JO_75]

I'm back with my popcorn......

 

[JO_75]

I'm done. I'm going back to work. If it changes to a fair system, great. If not, well we know why.

I hope your not going to quit over this, that would suck. I think we can all agree the FA system needs to be tweaked and needs improvement. Since we have a new forum, I think testing out a new system would be great to do whenever we finish this. Hopefully @Truth can put it together and we can see what kind of free agency system fits this game the best.

The one thing about this game is time will never work for everyone. Hopefully in the future, we can figure something out that works for everyone.

 

[DeVito52]

I'm done. I'm going back to work. If it changes to a fair system, great. If not, well we know why.

You will from here on out be remembered as the present day purple flock forum version of Martin Luther King Jr.

STAND UP FOR WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN DAMN IT!

Fight the power!!

End segregation!! Wait wrong one

End unjust game rules!!

 

[RavensMania]

I hope your not going to quit over this, that would suck. I think we can all agree the FA system needs to be tweaked and needs improvement. Since we have a new forum, I think testing out a new system would be great to do whenever we finish this. Hopefully @Truth can put it together and we can see what kind of free agency system fits this game the best.

The one thing about this game is time will never work for everyone. Hopefully in the future, we can figure something out that works for everyone.

It wouldn't be @Truth that puts it together it would be the entire CoCo. Most likely it's just going to be the bidoff process that changes to a longer timeframe. If you allow a team who has been bidding on a player for 23 hours who has the highest bid at that point (6pm) then decides he can't bid on that player anymore because he has become too expensive. Than we get back to the problem we had before. The last bid wins. It's like a sudden death or ebay situation. This is the sole reason why we have the final 5.

 

[JO_75]

It wouldn't be @Truth that puts it together it would be the entire CoCo. Most likely it's just going to be the bidoff process that changes to a longer timeframe. If you allow a team who has been bidding on a player for 23 hours who has the highest bid at that point (6pm) then decides he can't bid on that player anymore because he has become too expensive. Than we get back to the problem we had before. The last bid wins. It's like a sudden death or ebay situation. This is the sole reason why we have the final 5.

Having a 24 hour time frame for a bid off would be best. We usually skip a day between FA Positions anyway, so that extra day between positions can be used as the period for the cutoff to the bidoff process.

 

[Truth]

It is gaming the system. It is definitely sound strategy with the current rules, but it is gaming the system. I posted shortly after because I logged on through my phone while out of the house because I had no power at home due to the storm. If it wasn't a Sunday I wouldn't have even been on. Stop trying to rationalize your bullshit rule that you are able to take advantage of. It's a terrible rule and is very easily fixed with the idea that took me literally less than 5 minutes to think of. Having 24 hour FA periods that are almost entirely meaningless due to a dumb final 5 rule that basically says if you're not online in that window you're SoL makes no sense. Give people time to respond. We have lives. You did purposely wait until the last minute. Don't try to rationalize it with a terrible rule that nobody likes.

Why don't you make draft picks 15 minutes each then to not allow people to make moves? You say you don't want to give people time to move their roster around to make bigger bids, but that's exactly reflective of NFL FA. It's much better that way than someone scooping up players over people who aren't able to be there.

This is only my second year, and I never had the issue come up for me last year because I was the Steelers and didn't have much in the way of cap space to spend.

I'm in favor of extending the allotted time for bid-offs. I've both posed this in our PM and have submitted my vote. I've already described it as being sensible and arguably the best answer that should the issue. However, you were more than comfortable with the concept of my bids being invalidated due to a technicality within the rule book. The result goes the other way because of a misunderstanding of the rules, and somehow the latter is gaming the system. That is comically unfair. I did purposefully wait until the last minute. You do realize that most teams do this at least once at some point during FA, right? That's how literally any deadline bidding process works; there's an innate flurry at the end. This rule was created because the last five minutes of every FA period had flurries of bids, it's not intended to facilitate a time period for the flurries, only to account for the ones that always happen. It's essentially a deer crossing sign. To counter that, we gave challenge rights to those with the highest bid prior to the flurry. The final five rule is there to protect whomever is in the lead while notifications are allowed. Both with and without the FF, teams can bid at any point of time and can win players at any point of time. This means that I can submit a bid of 15 Stars on a player at the start of free agency and if it goes unchallenged, I win said player. If I submit a bid of 15 Stars with seconds to spare and it's the highest bid, I win said player. You were the last person to post before the FF, meaning you were protected for the lack of notifications by being able to challenge. I had zero added protections because of this rule as it otherwise simply would've been sudden death. Without the rule, the highest bidder wins and that's it. With the FF, you would've lost but had the chance to challenge and win thereafter. Without it, you would've lost without the right to challenge. This applies to everyone equally. Not only did the rule not benefit me, it did literally the exact opposite by allowing the opportunity for my bid to be challenged instead of being immediately accepted the winner. It works actively against last second winners, meaning only me in this scenario.

 

[Truth]

Having a 24 hour time frame for a bid off would be best. We usually skip a day between FA Positions anyway, so that extra day between positions can be used as the period for the cutoff to the bidoff process.

The issue with 24 hours is that teams would be in limbo until the very start of the next period. I'd say it should be between 8-12, but that's just me.

 

[RavensMania]

Having a 24 hour time frame for a bid off would be best. We usually skip a day between FA Positions anyway, so that extra day between positions can be used as the period for the cutoff to the bidoff process.

I actually think 24 hours is too long, but 8 to 12 hours should be fine. It should give people enough time to check the internet and decide whether they are going to bid off or not. You would have to state who you are bidding for and have that bid sent to a coco member that will be assigned to take bids by that 8 or 12 hour period. we are still working on specifications.

 

[DeVito52]

The issue with 24 hours is that teams would be in limbo until the very start of the next period. I'd say it should be between 8-12, but that's just me.

I don’t think it even needs to be that long. Something like 1 hour would do.

 

[rossihunter2]

But why are people who haven't bid on a player prior to the final hour or so allowed to basically swoop in at the last minute and steal players from anyone who cannot be online at that exact minute to see that there was a bid on a player they had a bid on? It invalidates the entire period until that point. Especially without any kind of notification, it makes it so players cannot respond at all to it.

tbf - it's not a dissimilar situation to the real life nfl - this is just a reflection on real life free agency - teams emerge out of the woodwork to swoop in on other players in all sports all the time when you get to deadlines - when other options become unfeasible for example teams move on to different targets

 

[RavensMania]

I'm done. I'm going back to work. If it changes to a fair system, great. If not, well we know why.

If you are insinuating that the rule won't happen because it's not beneficial to a CoCo member, than that is far from the truth. Truth and I last season would win high bid going into final five and also have the high bid prior to 7:00, freezing out the competition. We took advantage of this and so do others on the board. We decided to change this rule and it certainly didn't benefit us to do so. Now if you have the Final Five Rights, you can't bid from 6:55:01 to 6:59:59. This is only one example. We are trying to make this game better for all and unfortunately nothing is going to be perfect.

This year we have 5 members on CoCo. In previous years we have had 7 members on CoCo. Typically we change the rules based on suggestions of others.

You made a very fair point in having a longer process for the bid off. That is what we are working to change.

 

[rossihunter2]

when does the next free agency period start? is it this evening?

 

[Truth]

when does the next free agency period start? is it this evening?

Tonight at 7 PM EST.

 

[Giants56Ravens52]

However, you were more than comfortable with the concept of my bids being invalidated due to a technicality within the rule book. The result goes the other way because of a misunderstanding of the rules, and somehow the latter is gaming the system. That is comically unfair. I did purposefully wait until the last minute.

I asked about that because I wanted to know why I wasn't notified. I thought I made that clear. You are defending your gaming of the rules, and trying to shift the focus of this onto what I said at the end of the FA period because I didn't think your bids should count because I was never notified. It's a loophole in the rules that is only taken advantage of by people who have played for several years or CoCo members. Anyone who uses it is gaming the system to give themselves an advantage. You admit to exploiting it by saying you purposely waited until the very last minute so that you could get them without me having a chance. It may not be cheating, but it's as close as you can get without doing so and especially bad form when there are so many new and inexperienced players.

I proposed a simple, very easy to implement, fair for everyone fix that should have been painfully obvious. It would give everyone a fair shot no matter when they bid. You defend your system, and I know it is better than the last system because I've heard what that was, but it is advantageous to certain people and extremely disadvantageous to others. It is by no means anywhere near balanced whatsoever. The system I proposed would work perfectly and is extraordinarily simple to explain:

22-23 hours to bid on anyone.
Last hour or 2 bidding is done by those who have previous bids for each player. If a player has no bids, he is free game still.
At end: 6-12 hours to declare bid-off for highest bidder from each: inside and outside final period for each player.
6-12 hours for bid-offs when necessary.

Easy Peezy Lemon Squeezy

It allows for teams to adjust to when they are suddenly outbid in the last minute by someone trying to game the system, by allowing them to then bid on other FAs, and ones unbid on. Current system has no way to adjust for it. The person is just screwed.

And once more for emphasis:

No quoting and no notification to the person you pass should mean no bid. Period. Doesn't matter if it's final five or not.

 

[allblackraven]

I asked about that because I wanted to know why I wasn't notified. I thought I made that clear. You are defending your gaming of the rules, and trying to shift the focus of this onto what I said at the end of the FA period because I didn't think your bids should count because I was never notified. It's a loophole in the rules that is only taken advantage of by people who have played for several years or CoCo members. Anyone who uses it is gaming the system to give themselves an advantage. You admit to exploiting it by saying you purposely waited until the very last minute so that you could get them without me having a chance. It may not be cheating, but it's as close as you can get without doing so and especially bad form when there are so many new and inexperienced players.

I proposed a simple, very easy to implement, fair for everyone fix that should have been painfully obvious. It would give everyone a fair shot no matter when they bid. You defend your system, and I know it is better than the last system because I've heard what that was, but it is advantageous to certain people and extremely disadvantageous to others. It is by no means anywhere near balanced whatsoever. The system I proposed would work perfectly and is extraordinarily simple to explain:

22-23 hours to bid on anyone.
Last hour or 2 bidding is done by those who have previous bids for each player. If a player has no bids, he is free game still.
At end: 6-12 hours to declare bid-off for highest bidder from each: inside and outside final period for each player.
6-12 hours for bid-offs when necessary.

Easy Peezy Lemon Squeezy

It allows for teams to adjust to when they are suddenly outbid in the last minute by someone trying to game the system, by allowing them to then bid on other FAs, and ones unbid on. Current system has no way to adjust for it. The person is just screwed.

And once more for emphasis:

No quoting and no notification to the person you pass should mean no bid. Period. Doesn't matter if it's final five or not.

No quoting in final 5 has been the rule since I play the game (this is my 4th or 5th time). That rule has been clearly stated in the rules thread (every year) weeks before the bidding started, so I don't understand how can you call this gaming the system.
BTW, if you rely on notifications to place your counter bids at the end, you stand no chance in FAs for high value positions - notifications cannot keep up with sheer number of bids and will never get to you in time.