Signings, Cuts, Trades

[RavensMania]

https://overthecap.com/breaking-down-mark-andrews-56-million-contract-extension/

EDC and pat moriarty have an MO with contract signing - lots of cash early in the deals but those deals not re-setting the market in terms of total value or av/yr

yes and I love how they do that. Helps tremendously down the line with cap going up and in the situation where we restructure.

I'm sure the 2022 option bonus will be converted to a signing bonus and spread out over the length of the contract.

 

[Simba]

because if im honest i dont think at this point they care about special teams - we've got gus and an inexperienced RB 2 - it may be that right now they're not worried about special teams for that RB 3

we've got so much special teams ability at other positions that they can probably get away with it - so then it's just a case of managing expectations of an experienced vet coming in with the understanding that they're coming in with a specific role (which is why i think Lev bell doesn't make sense because he wasnt happy with that role in KC - but in terms of play-style he's exactly what i think we'd be looking for)

I guess my big thing is that I don't see these types of veterans realistically being better than some of the younger practice squad options out there. I'd also argue that if the young guys falter, it's very likely that Freeman or Bell or a host of other vets will be available in 3 weeks if you need to circle back.

 

[rmcjacket23]

https://overthecap.com/breaking-down-mark-andrews-56-million-contract-extension/

EDC and pat moriarty have an MO with contract signing - lots of cash early in the deals but those deals not re-setting the market in terms of total value or av/yr

This one's backloaded a lot more than I would like, though. I certainly understand the need for a lighter year 1 cap hit (2021), but his cap hit will triple from 2021 to 2022, and it jumps from $9M to $16M over a two year period.

If it were me, I'd have liked to have seen them go bigger in 2022 and flatten it out more after year 1. I loved Marlon's structure a lot more, and I liked Stanley's a bit more also.

The reason for that appears to be that second year option bonus. Andrews signing bonus is very much in-line with what they normally give to studs (similar to Marlon and Stanley's as a % of the contract), but Andrews looks like he's getting a $15.5M option bonus in 2022. That's just a little less than the option bonus Stanley got this year, and it's a little more than the one Marlon got. I wouldn't really bat an eye at that, but contextually, these are not the same size of contracts, as both Marlon and Stanley's extensions were a year longer and considerably more lucrative in guaranteed money, AAV and total money.

Or another way to look at it, is how much cash each got in the first two years of the deal as a percentage of the total deal:
Andrews: $30.1M out of $59.5M of total five years = 50.6%
Humphrey: $40.3M out of $99.6M of total six years = 40.5%
Stanley: $48.1M out of $107.1M of total six years = 44.9%

So they're definitely putting up more money earlier for Andrews than they did for Marlon for certain, and even more than Stanley.

Now the argument for this is that Andrews career will likely be a lot shorter than these two guys. Andrews may only have really like 3-4 really good years left in him before he breaks down. Tight end is brutal to play for the body in this league.

That being said, I would have liked to have seen them push more cap into earlier years, knowing that by the time Andrews cap hit rises to like $17M in the last two years, Lamar's cap hit will almost certainly be north of $40M at that point. Even with an extension, I'd expect Lamar's cap hit to probably be $30-35M or less for 2021, so I would try to utilize that to your advantage when structuring deals.

I loved Marlon's structure. There's a $7M jump from 2021 to 2022, but from 2022 through 2026, his cap hit stays between $17M-$21M consistently over a five year period.

Like people can marvel at like Pat Mahomes deal and all that, but just give it another year or two. Next year his cap number jumps $28.3M in a single year. The following year, it jumps another $11M. I wouldn't want any part of that. Even if you're one of the people who thinks the next TV deals are going to explode the salary cap, you're not going to consistently see $50M increase year over year. Maybe a one time leap when the deal kicks in, and then it will normalize.

 

[rmcjacket23]

yes and I love how they do that. Helps tremendously down the line with cap going up and in the situation where we restructure.

I'm sure the 2022 option bonus will be converted to a signing bonus and spread out over the length of the contract.

The option bonus is already spread out... that's why they do it. It can't be a signing bonus once the deal commences. It becomes either an option or a roster bonus.

It's all semantics, because pretty much any "bonus" is done to prorate it. You can only prorate for a max of five years, though.

 

[rossihunter2]

This one's backloaded a lot more than I would like, though. I certainly understand the need for a lighter year 1 cap hit (2021), but his cap hit will triple from 2021 to 2022, and it jumps from $9M to $16M over a two year period.

If it were me, I'd have liked to have seen them go bigger in 2022 and flatten it out more after year 1. I loved Marlon's structure a lot more, and I liked Stanley's a bit more also.

The reason for that appears to be that second year option bonus. Andrews signing bonus is very much in-line with what they normally give to studs (similar to Marlon and Stanley's as a % of the contract), but Andrews looks like he's getting a $15.5M option bonus in 2022. That's just a little less than the option bonus Stanley got this year, and it's a little more than the one Marlon got. I wouldn't really bat an eye at that, but contextually, these are not the same size of contracts, as both Marlon and Stanley's extensions were a year longer and considerably more lucrative in guaranteed money, AAV and total money.

Or another way to look at it, is how much cash each got in the first two years of the deal as a percentage of the total deal:
Andrews: $30.1M out of $59.5M of total five years = 50.6%
Humphrey: $40.3M out of $99.6M of total six years = 40.5%
Stanley: $48.1M out of $107.1M of total six years = 44.9%

So they're definitely putting up more money earlier for Andrews than they did for Marlon for certain, and even more than Stanley.

Now the argument for this is that Andrews career will likely be a lot shorter than these two guys. Andrews may only have really like 3-4 really good years left in him before he breaks down. Tight end is brutal to play for the body in this league.

That being said, I would have liked to have seen them push more cap into earlier years, knowing that by the time Andrews cap hit rises to like $17M in the last two years, Lamar's cap hit will almost certainly be north of $40M at that point. Even with an extension, I'd expect Lamar's cap hit to probably be $30-35M or less for 2021, so I would try to utilize that to your advantage when structuring deals.

I loved Marlon's structure. There's a $7M jump from 2021 to 2022, but from 2022 through 2026, his cap hit stays between $17M-$21M consistently over a five year period.

Like people can marvel at like Pat Mahomes deal and all that, but just give it another year or two. Next year his cap number jumps $28.3M in a single year. The following year, it jumps another $11M. I wouldn't want any part of that. Even if you're one of the people who thinks the next TV deals are going to explode the salary cap, you're not going to consistently see $50M increase year over year. Maybe a one time leap when the deal kicks in, and then it will normalize.

so my guess is that the rationale is the new tv deals come into play in 2023 when andrews's cap hit jumps from 9m to 13m and that we're likely over the financial impacts of the 2020 covid season on the cap at that point

 

[rossihunter2]

I guess my big thing is that I don't see these types of veterans realistically being better than some of the younger practice squad options out there. I'd also argue that if the young guys falter, it's very likely that Freeman or Bell or a host of other vets will be available in 3 weeks if you need to circle back.

that's the ideal but idk who that person is

and we're gonna have to sign someone to the 53 to replace Hill so might as well be a RB...

 

[rmcjacket23]

because if im honest i dont think at this point they care about special teams - we've got gus and an inexperienced RB 2 - it may be that right now they're not worried about special teams for that RB 3

we've got so much special teams ability at other positions that they can probably get away with it - so then it's just a case of managing expectations of an experienced vet coming in with the understanding that they're coming in with a specific role (which is why i think Lev bell doesn't make sense because he wasnt happy with that role in KC - but in terms of play-style he's exactly what i think we'd be looking for)

Right, but I guess my thought is, on gameday, I don't know if they're going to want to activate a third RB just to have him sit there and basically do nothing all game. Like with Lamar acting as a runner also, I don't even know if they'd get carries. If I go back and look at what they did when the phased out Ingram last year and even when they deactivated him and left Hill as the third back, it's very minor in terms of snap counts and certainly in terms of touches.

So yeah, they probably have others that can handle the ST work, but that's still another guy on the 46 man who's basically doing nothing if he's not playing ST.

Agree with Simba... there's probably a half dozen veterans just sitting out there who are all the same. I don't think I'm losing any sleep if Bell gets signed by another team before we need them, and I doubt all six will get scooped up in the near future. If Edwards or Williams gets hurt, sure, sound the alarm and bring in anybody with a pulse. But I feel like at this point some of these guys are just going to go in, stand there, do nothing, and whine to the media later about how they're not getting touches.

 

[rmcjacket23]

so my guess is that the rationale is the new tv deals come into play in 2023 when andrews's cap hit jumps from 9m to 13m and that we're likely over the financial impacts of the 2020 covid season on the cap at that point

And that's likely. My point though was that we already had potentially $40-50M in cap space available for 2022, and 2022 will be the absolute cheapest Lamar will probably be in a decade. If you're trying to front load a player who may not have much longevity in the league, I would do it from the cap side also, not just from the cash side.

 

[Simba]

Right, but I guess my thought is, on gameday, I don't know if they're going to want to activate a third RB just to have him sit there and basically do nothing all game. Like with Lamar acting as a runner also, I don't even know if they'd get carries. If I go back and look at what they did when the phased out Ingram last year and even when they deactivated him and left Hill as the third back, it's very minor in terms of snap counts and certainly in terms of touches.

So yeah, they probably have others that can handle the ST work, but that's still another guy on the 46 man who's basically doing nothing if he's not playing ST.

Agree with Simba... there's probably a half dozen veterans just sitting out there who are all the same. I don't think I'm losing any sleep if Bell gets signed by another team before we need them, and I doubt all six will get scooped up in the near future. If Edwards or Williams gets hurt, sure, sound the alarm and bring in anybody with a pulse. But I feel like at this point some of these guys are just going to go in, stand there, do nothing, and whine to the media later about how they're not getting touches.

I'd even make mention that during the covid game last year, Ty'Son Williams did exactly that. He was elevated as the emergency option as RB3 but played 0 snaps... on offense or ST. Just not sure what value a RB3 has in this offense if they aren't playing ST. Can't see them wanting to burn one of the 48 spots on a guy to stand there. The covid game is obviously a special case.

 

[RavensMania]

The option bonus is already spread out... that's why they do it. It can't be a signing bonus once the deal commences. It becomes either an option or a roster bonus.

It's all semantics, because pretty much any "bonus" is done to prorate it. You can only prorate for a max of five years, though.

I knew about the 5 year rule and that's kind of what I meant, just didn't word it properly. Thanks for clarifying though.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I knew about the 5 year rule and that's kind of what I meant, just didn't word it properly. Thanks for clarifying though.

Yeah, not really a factor with Andrews, since his extension was four years. But when you got the Mahomes of the world out here signing 10 year extensions, the NFL (wisely) isn't going to allow you to just prorated bonuses over like a decade. Would be the world's easiest way to manipulate the cap. Won't surprise me in the slightest if they cut out the whole bullshit "void year" phenomenon in the coming years also.

 

[purplepittabread88]

Elliott was manned up in the box frequently this preseason, I don’t think it takes a slot alignment for that to happen, jimmy is probably a different story.



fair point about chuck

yea good thing we dont play 2 of the best receiving tight ends in the first two weeks when jimmy hasn't been practicing lol

 

[rossihunter2]

Right, but I guess my thought is, on gameday, I don't know if they're going to want to activate a third RB just to have him sit there and basically do nothing all game. Like with Lamar acting as a runner also, I don't even know if they'd get carries. If I go back and look at what they did when the phased out Ingram last year and even when they deactivated him and left Hill as the third back, it's very minor in terms of snap counts and certainly in terms of touches.

So yeah, they probably have others that can handle the ST work, but that's still another guy on the 46 man who's basically doing nothing if he's not playing ST.

Agree with Simba... there's probably a half dozen veterans just sitting out there who are all the same. I don't think I'm losing any sleep if Bell gets signed by another team before we need them, and I doubt all six will get scooped up in the near future. If Edwards or Williams gets hurt, sure, sound the alarm and bring in anybody with a pulse. But I feel like at this point some of these guys are just going to go in, stand there, do nothing, and whine to the media later about how they're not getting touches.

i mean ultimately i think the guy we get will be a ST contributor but im just suggesting a reason why they might not feel beholden to that in this instance

 

[Simba]

 

[rmcjacket23]

i mean ultimately i think the guy we get will be a ST contributor but im just suggesting a reason why they might not feel beholden to that in this instance

I don't disagree. And it may be a fair analysis at this stage, given that we don't have a lengthy injured list of inactives coming. I would just imagine that as short term injuries occur and more inactive spots need to be reserved for injured players, having a 3rd RB who doesn't play ST will become a luxury we can't afford. That, or, Williams handles a lot more of the ST work and said back becomes the #2, which I think we all hope isn't the case.

 

[rossihunter2]

this is exactly the kind of guy you were talking about - played like 40% of the special teams snaps for carolina last year

bonus is that he's got some return skills too as well as being a gunner

 

[Simba]

this is exactly the kind of guy you were talking about - played like 40% of the special teams snaps for carolina last year

bonus is that he's got some return skills too as well as being a gunner

Makes a ton of sense. Could still be more of a PS guy rather than a 53 man signing. But has a role on game days for now (assuming he signs) and they can continue to look for other options for week 2 and on.

 

[rossihunter2]

and for what it's worth on this, the zrebiec said yesterday (i think) that he got the sense that freeman was most likely of the guys they tried out

 

[Simba]

and for what it's worth on this, the zrebiec said yesterday (i think) that he got the sense that freeman was most likely of the guys they tried out

Well that’s interesting. Not sure if it’s a good thing or a bad thing that his medicals had to extend into another day. I know he’s been banged up in recent years so obviously would need to comb through all of that before agreeing.

 

[rossihunter2]

Well that’s interesting. Not sure if it’s a good thing or a bad thing that his medicals had to extend into another day. I know he’s been banged up in recent years so obviously would need to comb through all of that before agreeing.

alternatively it's them doing more serious medical because they're actually considering signing him vs just trying him out

my guess is it's due diligence rather than because they've noticed an issue per se

but if we're happy with the medicals i think we've just found the 2 guys getting added to complete the 69 man roster - only question is gonna be who's on the PS and who's on the 53