Lamar Jackson

[rmcjacket23]

different things - we're not talking about level of play here - no one's suggesting that ray and ed aren't 2 of the greatest to ever play the game and ed's probably the undisputed best safety of all time and ray's in the conversation for best linebacker

but there was never an aura of excitement about them in that they became must watch tv even for non-nfl audiences

no one who doesnt watch the nfl was turning on the tv because of ed reed or ray lewis as much as i love them

but people already do that with lamar - he's a mercurial talent that's "must-see" - we're not even talking about legacy or quality of play - we're talking about transcendental impact

I agree here. It's hard to describe exactly. In some ways, it's basically "QBs are more important, and people pay to watch QBs" mentality.

People will pay money from everywhere to watch Lamar play. I don't think that was the case with Ed or Ray. They were among the greatest to ever play their positions, and will almost certainly be "better" than Lamar long term, but that's not the impact on the sport. That's just how somebody ranks at their position.

Michael Vick was a transcendent player. He wasn't the best player. There's a lot of QBs that were better than him. And there's a lot of QBs that people wouldn't pay to see that are better than him.

 

[ndub]

different things - we're not talking about level of play here - no one's suggesting that ray and ed aren't 2 of the greatest to ever play the game and ed's probably the undisputed best safety of all time and ray's in the conversation for best linebacker

but there was never an aura of excitement about them in that they became must watch tv even for non-nfl audiences

no one who doesnt watch the nfl was turning on the tv because of ed reed or ray lewis as much as i love them

but people already do that with lamar - he's a mercurial talent that's "must-see" - we're not even talking about legacy or quality of play - we're talking about transcendental impact

Um, yes, they were... the Ravens defense was something to behold. Every non football fan I knew (and there were plenty) knew of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and always talked good things about them. And I was raised in TN so they didn't even know much about the Ravens. They were definitely widely known as the leaders of a behemoth of a defense.

 

[rossihunter2]

To your point Lamar has already changed the course of the NFL with some of the things he’s done. I think the 2019 season was a reality check for some scouts and how they evaluate QBs. However, I remember hearing this same conversation about Vick in 2002. Really good player, ultimately didn’t pan out the way some thought. It’s just to early to put Lamar on the pedestal of NFL greats. I really appreciate getting to watch a talent like Lamar, but he has a ways to go.


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but that's almost the point isnt it - michael vick is not a massively superstar accomplished player - he played 13 seasons and made 4 pro bowls and won a comeback player of the year award

and yet he's remembered as this magnetic talent with a legacy that belies his accomplishments - everyone knows who michael vick is... probably more people than who know who phillip rivers is for example

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Abstract concepts are hard for some

 

[rossihunter2]

I agree here. It's hard to describe exactly. In some ways, it's basically "QBs are more important, and people pay to watch QBs" mentality.

People will pay money from everywhere to watch Lamar play. I don't think that was the case with Ed or Ray. They were among the greatest to ever play their positions, and will almost certainly be "better" than Lamar long term, but that's not the impact on the sport. That's just how somebody ranks at their position.

Michael Vick was a transcendent player. He wasn't the best player. There's a lot of QBs that were better than him. And there's a lot of QBs that people wouldn't pay to see that are better than him.

exactly - and it's probably got something to do with their running ability and general level of athleticism

but because they touch the ball on every play and because they're a potential playmaker on every play - you cant take your eyes off them

it's almost 100% about being a QB, but it's also about something extra on top of that - lamar and mahomes have it right now - part of it is marketing too - both of these guys have been built up as these young mythical beings in the sport in a way that deshaun watson or josh allen or kyler murray or justin herbert or joe burrow havent had the benefit of for various reasons

it's a number of things

 

[Tank]

Right. Up to this point it’s been the entertainment factor that has drawn in the fans. There’s been nothing like watching Lamar run the ball the ways he has, breaking ankles and making accomplished defenders look silly. What a blast it’s been to see!
I think the question has been and is the one that remains, is that kind of play sustainable and can it help to win championships(?).

 

[rmcjacket23]

Um, yes, they were... the Ravens defense was something to behold. Every non football fan I knew (and there were plenty) knew of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed and always talked good things about them. And I was raised in TN so they didn't even know much about the Ravens. They were definitely widely known as the leaders of a behemoth of a defense.

And yet a lot of those people never felt the need to pay money to see them play.
People who had never played football or even watched football felt the need to pay and watch Michael Vick play, for example, because what he was doing was different than anything they'd seen before.
Ray and Ed weren't doing things you had never seen before. They were just doing it better than anybody you had seen before.

 

[ndub]

Lots of recency bias around here I see

 

[ndub]

And yet a lot of those people never felt the need to pay money to see them play.
People who had never played football or even watched football felt the need to pay and watch Michael Vick play, for example, because what he was doing was different than anything they'd seen before.
Ray and Ed weren't doing things you had never seen before. They were just doing it better than anybody you had seen before.

Ray was just laying on the hit stick, creating a whole new entire thing in Madden with the hit stick... Ed was just busy intercepting passes and getting TDs

 

[rmcjacket23]

Ray was just laying on the hit stick, creating a whole new entire thing in Madden with the hit stick... Ed was just busy intercepting passes and getting TDs

OK, so you've never seen linebackers laying big hits or Safeties intercepting passes and scoring TDs? I mean there's guys in the HOF that were doing it before they were even born. Again, great at what they did, but not transcendent in what they did.

I obviously don't put any stock in Madden because, well, its Madden. It didn't exist for that long before Ray Lewis started playing, and it wasn't even that popular until technology advanced to levels where you could play it with anything other than stick figures. Wasn't even much of a thing until the invention of PlayStation/N64.

 

[ndub]

OK, so you've never seen linebackers laying big hits or Safeties intercepting passes and scoring TDs? I mean there's guys in the HOF that were doing it before they were even born. Again, great at what they did, but not transcendent in what they did.

I obviously don't put any stock in Madden because, well, its Madden. It didn't exist for that long before Ray Lewis started playing, and it wasn't even that popular until technology advanced to levels where you could play it with anything other than stick figures. Wasn't even much of a thing until the invention of PlayStation/N64.

Sounds good

 

[rmcjacket23]

Lots of recency bias around here I see

Could say the same about the "get off my lawn" bias...

 

[BoredMarine13]

To be fair, Vick effed himself over with his dumbassery.

For sure, the dog fighting shit is still a black eye for the NFL. Also crazy he went to jail and still came back to play at a high level.


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[BoredMarine13]

You’re talking about accomplishments, I’m talking about something entirely different and the first part of your post is what I’m referring to.

But the second part of my post is also important. The narrative has always been : Tall, strong armed, pocket bound QBs run the NFL. I don’t think that changes over the next 15 years because of Lamar’s style. Lamar is the exception rather than the rule. He is too unique to be replicated by anyone else at sustainable level.


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[OURavensFan]

Saying “and that’s that” doesn’t suddenly make something true. Ray and Ed were all time greats at their positions, Lamar Jackson is changing how scouts evaluate the most important position in football, there’s different levels to this, there is being great, and then there’s being 1 of 1, Lamar Jackson is a 1 of 1 kind of player, his current slump has nothing to do with it.

Ray and Ed’s impacts are already forgotten outside of Baltimore, Lamar Jackson’s impact will be felt league wide 20 years from now

Begging your pardon but no they are not

 

[JoeyFlex5]

But the second part of my post is also important. The narrative has always been : Tall, strong armed, pocket bound QBs run the NFL. I don’t think that changes over the next 15 years because of Lamar’s style. Lamar is the exception rather than the rule. He is too unique to be replicated by anyone else at sustainable level.


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It appears that way now, because players with Lamar’s talents are always pushed to play wr or rb from the time they’re kids. Lamar paves the way for a new breed of qb, kids who would’ve spent their whole adolescence playing rb despite having qb ability will now push to play qb and coaches will be more open minded to it.

 

[ndub]

Begging your pardon but no they are not

Thank you. Recency bias to the max

 

[BoredMarine13]

but that's almost the point isnt it - michael vick is not a massively superstar accomplished player - he played 13 seasons and made 4 pro bowls and won a comeback player of the year award

and yet he's remembered as this magnetic talent with a legacy that belies his accomplishments - everyone knows who michael vick is... probably more people than who know who phillip rivers is for example

Phillip Rivers has to be best known for his wife’s ability to pump out children. Truly impressive vaginal skills.

I kinda forgot the point. I just know I fell somewhere in the middle of anointing Lamar as Gods gift to the NFL and let’s pace ourselves and just enjoying what we’re watching and hopefully Lamar can bring us a super bowl.


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[OURavensFan]

It appears that way now, because players with Lamar’s talents are always pushed to play wr or rb from the time they’re kids. Lamar paves the way for a new breed of qb, kids who would’ve spent their whole adolescence playing rb despite having qb ability will now push to play qb and coaches will be more open minded to it.

Maybe, a lot of these people already do play QB in HS and College though

 

[RavensMania]

Saying “and that’s that” doesn’t suddenly make something true. Ray and Ed were all time greats at their positions, Lamar Jackson is changing how scouts evaluate the most important position in football, there’s different levels to this, there is being great, and then there’s being 1 of 1, Lamar Jackson is a 1 of 1 kind of player, his current slump has nothing to do with it.

Ray and Ed’s impacts are already forgotten outside of Baltimore, Lamar Jackson’s impact will be felt league wide 20 years from now

I don't know about that. I've heard Bill Belichick has nightmares about Ed Reed and Peyton Manning also.