Signings, Cuts, Trades

[Simba]

That's also why you don't say no to Jacksonville. I will go to literally any city that wants to pay me that much above market value. Kirk is good but damn.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I definitely think bad at cap because I’ve seen some teams navigate the cap and keep their free agents. If you asked me to tell you who, I’ll stumble because I don’t have that data right now and I’m not going to spend my time to look it up either. I’d call our drafting average lately, we’ve got some great hits but also some bad ones like most teams, so I’d say we’re average. Only difference is we’ve got some good players like Andrews, Jackson, Hollywood—but only Andrews is on a second deal there.

1. How many of those teams are winning Championships though? Like the teams I can think of that routinely do this are like the Saints, and I'm not sure they're the barometer for success by which other NFL teams should be held standard.
2. Many teams that do this continue to defer money for long periods of time. It's just a question of when, not if, that backfires on them.

Basically see the Saints and Eagles from last year.

 

[Grim]

1. How many of those teams are winning Championships though? Like the teams I can think of that routinely do this are like the Saints, and I'm not sure they're the barometer for success by which other NFL teams should be held standard.
2. Many teams that do this continue to defer money for long periods of time. It's just a question of when, not if, that backfires on them.

Basically see the Saints and Eagles from last year.

I think one or two have to be honest. Let’s be real…if you’re good at cap management that really does help a lot because it allows you to shed guys and get new guys as needed to make a run.

 

[JO_75]

Well like we've always said, fans view things differently than players do.
Fans can pretend like wins are more important, because they're not getting paid regardless of whether they win or lose.

My point more so is how many of these players signing these big contracts with terribly run teams are going to be cut a year from now, two years from now? Teams will see the production they are getting didn't match the contract and boom... a year later they are cut.

 

[Edgar]

We can afford anyone we want, it’s all a matter of how creative we’re willing to get

We will end up affording Calais Campbell

 

[rmcjacket23]

My point more so is how many of these players signing these big contracts with terribly run teams are going to be cut a year from now, two years from now? Teams will see the production they are getting didn't match the contract and boom... a year later they are cut.

Why would that be different if they played for a contender? It's not like contenders are going to go somebody like Kirk 4-5 years and $80M. They're signing veterans to 1-2 years, max, and just basically doing a series of one year deals.

Contenders generally have less cap space than others. You think those teams are any more or less loyal than others are?

You know what happens if Kirk gets cut in two years? He'll be two years richer than he would have been literally anywhere else, and then he get go sign with a contender for less.

 

[rossihunter2]

My point more so is how many of these players signing these big contracts with terribly run teams are going to be cut a year from now, two years from now? Teams will see the production they are getting didn't match the contract and boom... a year later they are cut.

that's why the real number you're looking for is the guaranteed money and the "fully" guaranteed money

but most of these guys are at least getting 2 years at the insane prices from those teams including likely huge signing bonuses

 

[rmcjacket23]

I think one or two have to be honest. Let’s be real…if you’re good at cap management that really does help a lot because it allows you to shed guys and get new guys as needed to make a run.

I don't really think there's teams that are bad at cap management. I think they're all basically the same. I think teams differ in how they value players and teams differ in how much mortgaging of the future they're willing to do.

I don't really have any concerns over the Ravens ability to manage the cap. Not any more or less than I do any other team. I have concerns about our ability to draft and develop young players that we can one day sign to extensions, so we don't have to play roulette in FA for large $, like many teams do.

I don't really see the listing of teams that regularly compete for championships that constantly defer cap space to the future in large chunks. I've seen teams that have done that and have failed to execute that strategy, like the Saints for example, but I don't see that as a long term winning strategy.

Quite frankly, there's only one team that has regularly won Lombardi's in the last couple decades, the Patriots, and they didn't use that model at all.

 

[rossihunter2]

I don't really think there's teams that are bad at cap management. I think they're all basically the same. I think teams differ in how they value players and teams differ in how much mortgaging of the future they're willing to do.

I don't really have any concerns over the Ravens ability to manage the cap. Not any more or less than I do any other team. I have concerns about our ability to draft and develop young players that we can one day sign to extensions, so we don't have to play roulette in FA for large $, like many teams do.

I don't really see the listing of teams that regularly compete for championships that constantly defer cap space to the future in large chunks. I've seen teams that have done that and have failed to execute that strategy, like the Saints for example, but I don't see that as a long term winning strategy.

Quite frankly, there's only one team that has regularly won Lombardi's in the last couple decades, the Patriots, and they didn't use that model at all.

i mean i do agree with you mostly

i would say there's clearly some organisations around the league that thing bad cap management exists because it's been a big recent trend in GM hiring that teams are looking for more cap-side guys than personnel-side guys - i think that's somewhat telling of how organisations currently value the importance of cap management vs the draft on a more general sense

also worth pointing out, counter to that, that the better organisations in the league rarely have GM openings so maybe those trends are less important to watch for

 

[UPennChem]

I personally think @JoeyFlex5 is right about the window closing. Lamar is a great talent and has the ability to keep getting better. But the issue I see is, we've never experienced a multi year stretch where we didn't have as much talent because Lamar's price tag forced that situation. It's inevitable. It just means you need better production from the draft consistently and it's going to be hard to retain some good pieces and certainly hard to bring new ones in. That has to have an effect, I don't see how it couldn't.

I feel like a potentially decent example of this is GB. I can't say for sure it's because of cap and lack of talent or something, but ARod is great and they are always a "threat" but they just can't do it. Also ARod is better than Lamar and that's not an insult to LJ.

I feel like once that window "closes" it's not like the team now sucks, it's just I think you might get caught jn a perrenial GB like situation. And we don't have the luxury of having a shitty division and conference.

 

[Simba]

I think the bigger issue with the Ravens post-SB was they paid a lot of money to keep guys at non-premium positions (e.g. Brandon Williams). We had some really good players but not the true game changers, and our success suffered because of that. I think we've seen a shift on that recently and hope that continues.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I personally think @JoeyFlex5 is right about the window closing. Lamar is a great talent and has the ability to keep getting better. But the issue I see is, we've never experienced a multi year stretch where we didn't have as much talent because Lamar's price tag forced that situation. It's inevitable. It just means you need better production from the draft consistently and it's going to be hard to retain some good pieces and certainly hard to bring new ones in. That has to have an effect, I don't see how it couldn't.

I feel like a potentially decent example of this is GB. I can't say for sure it's because of cap and lack of talent or something, but ARod is great and they are always a "threat" but they just can't do it. Also ARod is better than Lamar and that's not an insult to LJ.

I feel like once that window "closes" it's not like the team now sucks, it's just I think you might get caught jn a perrenial GB like situation. And we don't have the luxury of having a shitty division and conference.

OK, but I guess my point is... if we just upgrade the Oline, and do nothing else, why is that not enough and what else could be done to boost his chances of winning a SB?

Like the Packers model is Aaron Rodgers gets paid a ton of money and has big cap hits, they keep the playmakers he wants, and then the rest of the money leftover goes to a lot of average players.

Which just circles back to my point. If this is peak Lamar, I wouldn't waste a lot of resources building a roster to help him win. I'd position myself to add assets that will be here after he's gone.

 

[JO_75]

Dolphins traded for La'El Collins.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I think the bigger issue with the Ravens post-SB was they paid a lot of money to keep guys at non-premium positions (e.g. Brandon Williams). We had some really good players but not the true game changers, and our success suffered because of that. I think we've seen a shift on that recently and hope that continues.

True, but I think that's a product of not having good enough players at premium positions that were worth paying.

Now, most of your cap capital is going to Corners and Offensive Tackles, which are premium positions. And soon to be WRs/Pass catchers and QBs.

 

[Edgar]

Dolphins traded for La'El Collins.

man

 

[RavensMania]

Jags expected to land Christian Kirk, as well. Big money deal.

This years offseason champs and it's only day 1.....not even

 

[Simba]

True, but I think that's a product of not having good enough players at premium positions that were worth paying.

Now, most of your cap capital is going to Corners and Offensive Tackles, which are premium positions. And soon to be WRs/Pass catchers and QBs.

Yep this was part 2. We swung and missed far too often in the draft when it came to those premium positions. When they didn't pan out, the good players you had to keep were some of the non-premium guys. There's been a shift and that's tied to (a) more swings and hits at premium positions and (b) a philosophy shift where EDC has shown a lot more aggression.

 

[UPennChem]

OK, but I guess my point is... if we just upgrade the Oline, and do nothing else, why is that not enough and what else could be done to boost his chances of winning a SB?

Like the Packers model is Aaron Rodgers gets paid a ton of money and has big cap hits, they keep the playmakers he wants, and then the rest of the money leftover goes to a lot of average players.

Which just circles back to my point. If this is peak Lamar, I wouldn't waste a lot of resources building a roster to help him win. I'd position myself to add assets that will be here after he's gone.

I'm highly confused by this response because this has almost nothing to do with what I wrote. I simply said that I agree a little bit more with Joey than Rossi on the discussion that Lamar's impending cap hit will have an effect on the "window" for winning a superbowl. My statement ended there.

 

[redrum52]

I don't think we're bad with cap. We've been extremely unfortunate with Big names earning deals and then getting hurt(or punching people). Need to keep Mark in insulin infused bubble wrap this offseason.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Dolphins traded for La'El Collins.

God fuck it all