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The 2023 Offseason Thread

redrum52 said:
As far as Hopkins, you really think it they're asking for that much? They're in a bad cap situation and their qb won't be there for most of the year most likely. I just don't see him going for higher than a 3rd.
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we don't have cap, so it doesn't matter
 
rmcjacket23 said:
So two problems I have with this:
1. If the Burrown/Herbert/Hurts deals aren't fully gtd, Lamar is losing the negotiation, because he won't get fully gtd from us or anybody else. How much $ he actually loses we won't know for many years, because we'd need to see how his next several contracts and the trajectory of his career plays out. But if he's holding out for a Watson deal, and he doesn't get one, its hard to see where he comes out ahead.

2. I don't know what Lamar wants. We have an idea, but nobody really knows. Franchises aren't in the business of giving players exactly what they want. Quite frankly, no player is that valuable to a franchise to do that. Not peak Brady, not peak Mahomes, not peak anybody. NFL franchises, regardless of who it is, will make a shit ton of money with Lamar, and they'll make a shit ton of money without Lamar. They'll make a shit ton of money winning, and they'll make a shit ton of money losing.

There's a limit to everything. If Lamar wants X, and the Ravens don't want to give him X, then he doesn't get X. He waits another couple years and prays that somebody else will give him X. Maybe he gets it, maybe he doesn't. Ravens will have already moved on.

If there was a deal to be had, I think the deal would have gotten done already.

End of day, I care about what's in the best interest of the franchise. I couldn't give a shit less what's in the best interest of the player. He's looking out for his interests (which he should), and the franchise, Owner, etc. is looking at for their interests (which they should). Everybody is doing what they're supposed to do. If it gets done, it gets done. If he gets traded away, so be it. Franchise will continue. Just like it continued when Ray retired. Just like it continued when Ed left.

If the franchise thinks giving Lamar a $250M fully gtd deal is a deal-breaker, cool. Don't do it then. Trade him away, start over. There's no guarantees paying him a shit load of money makes this franchise better off short term or long term, because we don't know what happens if we do and we don't know what happens if we don't.
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I mean you and I come to the same final conclusion on this.

Not even sure why you're number 2 is a problem with what I said. I said he's got his number and clearly he's "looking" at the Watson deal. Doesn't mean that's exactly what he wants. But it doesn't really matter. As you said the Ravens haven't budged on whatever X is.

On point 1, I already tried to explain why he wins either way. He knows he can ask for the world right now. If he gets the world he wins. If the others go first and they don't get the world, then he accepts reality and just gets you know the highest QB contract in history in line with that the NFL is doing across the board. The point is for him, he either gets the leagues best reasonable deal or the leagues best unreasonable deal. He can't lose.
 
UPennChem said:
I still think the Ravens have "lost" in these negotiations. There's only a few things Lamar is looking at. He's got:

1) The number he wants
2) Watson deal
3) Burrow and Herbert incoming

Lamar is in a win win no matter what. If Lamar gets his deal, then he wins. If Lamar plays on the tag and waits for Burrow and Herbert to sign, then if they get fully guaranteed deals, he will too. If they don't, then he will settle for what they're getting which is going to be huge money anyway.

Or maybe Lamar would legitimately be soooo money focused that he would even after those 2 sign, want to be on the second tag knowing he's getting another huge check prior to the big deal, or he gets traded and that team is gonna give him the big deal.

At the end of the day, it's patently obvious that the Ravens (if they've always been committed to Lamar) should have given him his deal last offseason. They didn't and they should now.

Allowing him to play on the tag, drag you along without good understanding of what you're cap is going to be, have the price increase further every year, and be a huge media disaster is not the way to go.

If he's your guy, sign him. If he's not trade him. Enough already. You're letting these "negotiations" effect the entire team over years of time. Get it right.

And before people start being annoying about impatience or something, they've got the offseason to get this done. No rush. But come week 1 if Lamar isn't signed or on another team, shame on this FO
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Burrow and Herbert incoming will only hurt Lamars chances at getting a fully guaranteed contract. First the NFLPA isn't involved in these deals and 2nd those owners, especially Mike Brown can't afford a fully guaranteed contract.
 
RavensMania said:
Burrow and Herbert incoming will only hurt Lamars chances at getting a fully guaranteed contract. First the NFLPA isn't involved in these deals and 2nd those owners, especially Mike Brown can't afford a fully guaranteed contract.
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Totally agree. That being said if their deals do in fact make the fully guaranteed deal off the table for him, he'll simply settle for the highest AAV contract in the league with guarantees similar to the above mentioned two.

He can't really lose.
 
I think the overall feeling that Lamar can't lose is generally right. If he's dead set on fully guaranteed and/or similar guaranteed to Watson (regardless of overall value), well, he might "lose." But regardless, dude is getting the bag and he and his team were smart enough to play that game. The same offer he got before talks got called off last year is the absolutely minimum talks were starting at this year.
 
Simba said:
I think the overall feeling that Lamar can't lose is generally right. If he's dead set on fully guaranteed and/or similar guaranteed to Watson (regardless of overall value), well, he might "lose." But regardless, dude is getting the bag and he and his team were smart enough to play that game. The same offer he got before talks got called off last year is the absolutely minimum talks were starting at this year.
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right. I really want Lamar back, but this cap is so limiting. HOW do the chiefs have the cap and resources to make the SB?
 
UPennChem said:
I mean you and I come to the same final conclusion on this.

Not even sure why you're number 2 is a problem with what I said. I said he's got his number and clearly he's "looking" at the Watson deal. Doesn't mean that's exactly what he wants. But it doesn't really matter. As you said the Ravens haven't budged on whatever X is.

On point 1, I already tried to explain why he wins either way. He knows he can ask for the world right now. If he gets the world he wins. If the others go first and they don't get the world, then he accepts reality and just gets you know the highest QB contract in history in line with that the NFL is doing across the board. The point is for him, he either gets the leagues best reasonable deal or the leagues best unreasonable deal. He can't lose.
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OK but I'm confused. You're post basically blamed the Ravens for not getting a deal done. OK, so basically, in order to get a deal done, the Ravens should have just given Lamar whatever he asked for, correct? I mean logically the only way to truly get a deal done at this point is to hand Lamar exactly what he asks for.

If that's the case, I strongly disagree with that approach, mostly because I have no idea what Lamar is asking for. He's not a blank check QB for me. It's not particularly close for me either.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
OK but I'm confused. You're post basically blamed the Ravens for not getting a deal done. OK, so basically, in order to get a deal done, the Ravens should have just given Lamar whatever he asked for, correct? I mean logically the only way to truly get a deal done at this point is to hand Lamar exactly what he asks for.

If that's the case, I strongly disagree with that approach, mostly because I have no idea what Lamar is asking for. He's not a blank check QB for me. It's not particularly close for me either.
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All I'm saying is they should decide whether he is a blank check QB for them.

If he is, write it. If he's not, trade him
 
UPennChem said:
All I'm saying is they should decide whether he is a blank check QB for them.

If he is, write it. If he's not, trade him
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I don't think we're at that point yet though. There's a middle. That middle can be dictated by one or both parties coming to a compromise, and it can also be created by other players signing extensions that push one party in a certain direction. Which we talked about above.

Realistically, franchise tag is probably going to happen and I think him playing on it is the most likely outcome at this point. Meaning I think we're in month 1 of a 12 month window to get in or get out. I think he can be tagged and play under the tag, but next year he basically can't. By early February 2024, if there's no extension, its 100% trade time.

I don't agree 2023 is the year that decision has to be made. I suppose theoretically info could change that, though. If Lamar gets to July and says "look I'm not signing here long term", then you absolutely trade him as soon as you can. But that's true of just about any time that happens.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
I don't think we're at that point yet though. There's a middle. That middle can be dictated by one or both parties coming to a compromise, and it can also be created by other players signing extensions that push one party in a certain direction. Which we talked about above.

Realistically, franchise tag is probably going to happen and I think him playing on it is the most likely outcome at this point. Meaning I think we're in month 1 of a 12 month window to get in or get out. I think he can be tagged and play under the tag, but next year he basically can't. By early February 2024, if there's no extension, its 100% trade time.

I don't agree 2023 is the year that decision has to be made. I suppose theoretically info could change that, though. If Lamar gets to July and says "look I'm not signing here long term", then you absolutely trade him as soon as you can. But that's true of just about any time that happens.
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We don't have the cap for the tag. I would prefer an extension
 
Thezone27 said:
We don't have the cap for the tag. I would prefer an extension
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OK, just to be clear, we will create space for the tag, and its extremely likely to happen. I hope he signs an extension before then, but I have low expectations of an extension happening in the next 6 weeks, which is when you need it to happen.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
OK, just to be clear, we will create space for the tag, and its extremely likely to happen. I hope he signs an extension before then, but I have low expectations of an extension happening in the next 6 weeks, which is when you need it to happen.
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But we wouldn't have to create space if we just extended him. I'm scared of our possible cuts, and I want to avoid them if possible.
 
OURavensFan said:
I think we can all agree we’d love for this situation to be resolved as soon as possible, I can’t take another off season and season of this Bs
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I have low expectations. This has like middle-of-July extension written all over it. Pretty much day of the franchise tag deadline or right before.

Also that's how many of these franchise tag deals go. Large majority of them get extensions in July or not at all.
 
Thezone27 said:
But we wouldn't have to create space if we just extended him. I'm scared of our possible cuts, and I want to avoid them if possible.
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OK, but that's easier said than done.
Also I think some of the cuts we're going to make are happening regardless if Lamar gets extended or tagged.

I highly, highly doubt Clark, Edwards or Duvernay are back unless they take significant pay cuts. Probably in either scenario.

Campbell is 50/50 to return based on he just may decide to retire anyway. May not be up to us, but Lamar getting tagged I think increases likelihood that we just cut him and move on anyway.

Rest of the cap space likely comes from contract restructures.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
I have low expectations. This has like middle-of-July extension written all over it. Pretty much day of the franchise tag deadline or right before.

Also that's how many of these franchise tag deals go. Large majority of them get extensions in July or not at all.
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And I'll agree with you on this, which is why I don't buy the notion that there's going to be any resolution by the time FA opens regardless of what decision is made. Any team potentially acquiring him is likely only doing so with an extension in place, and based on the pace we've had on that front, I find it hard to believe someone else is just going to come in and get it done quickly.
 
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