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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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K-Dog

MVP
Wait,,, what?

Someone who thinks it is perfectly okay to kill innocent people is *not* mentally ill? Killing people with no reason is completely clear and rational thinking ?

Are you for real?

For the love of all that is good and pure in this world please tell me that is not what you are telling me.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
OK. That's cool. but to me and this is not fact based but an opinion but any premeditated murder or violent crime to me is a sign of mental illness. Evil like that is just not right. Sure there's gun violence that involves act of rage, suicide ,self defense and just accidents in general that makes up for a shitload of gun offenses that result in death but anything that's premeditated to me is some sort of mental illness.

Wait,,, what?

Someone who thinks it is perfectly okay to kill innocent people is *not* mentally ill? Killing people with no reason is completely clear and rational thinking ?

Are you for real?

For the love of all that is good and pure in this world please tell me that is not what you are telling me.

statements and thoughts like these stigmatize mental health - some people are just bad people - your moral character is not necessarily related to your mental illness

take the inverse: people who go out of their way to help people all the time to the ends of the earth and heroically save people etc. are not necessarily mentally healthy either...
 

K-Dog

MVP
statements and thoughts like these stigmatize mental health - some people are just bad people - your moral character is not necessarily related to your mental illness

take the inverse: people who go out of their way to help people all the time to the ends of the earth and heroically save people etc. are not necessarily mentally healthy either...


Okay then.
That Dill weed in Florida stigmatises lawful gun owners.
Some people are just bad people, your moral character is not related to gun ownership.
 

52520Andrew

Pro Bowler
Are you saying they didn't go in becuz they only had pistols?? If you don't think pistols can cause a lot of damage ask the VaTech students about that.

I never blamed anything on mental health but if you look at a lot these mass shootings.............................

To me I believe a lot of people wish they had a gun when they're being shot at. Its just too bad and extremely horrible that it seems like a lot of these shootings happen in no gun zones.

Now when I was talkin about limiting entrances a lot of these could involve doors that only open from the inside or be opened by ID's by people that are allowed at the school. The problem is libs aren't looking at how to protect places that make sense. All they're about is going after the 2nd amendment.

If a killer breaks the law by purchasing weapons and enters your home I guess its best to depend on the law to save us. Trust me the elites and the higher ups in govt don't depend on the law. They got their protection. The rest of us just aren't as important I guess.

Oh I know they can but again against an AR-15 these trained professionals wouldn't go in, can't be a glowing endorsement for what they thought their chances were against such a gun.

Not saying you were, more just ranting about it, but it is a common excuse and is only used as that because nothing is done about it. Frustrates me it is always brought up and then the same people who bring the stuff up don't do a thing about it. Like if people are so sure mental health is the problem then why not do something to address depression in this country? I mean it is a huge problem all on its own.

They aren't spending all the tax payer money to do that. Teachers barely get enough money and supplies for their classrooms as is. And I am pretty sure Trump is proposing more budget cuts to education. Wouldn't count on them all of a sudden spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to redesign thousands of schools across the country. And then mass shooters would just go somewhere else.

A lot of these mass shootings are where the crowds are. If you wanna have to constantly be under armed guard to do something as simple as watch a movie or go to church or go to a concert(and tell me how effective those armed guards would have been in Vegas, they wouldn't have done a thing), all so you don't have to worry about some maniac shooting up the place, that is a problem. I mean for people so worried about the big bad government, how does that represent freedom to have to be under armed guard all the time? That seems a heck of a lot closer to tyranny than taking away guns.

I have nothing against lawful citizens who want to own a gun being able to get one but we shouldn't just give guns out to anyone that passes a background check. I mean if that was how we gave out car licenses the roads would be even worse than they are now(and believe me they are bad as is). You should be trained how to use guns, how to safely store guns, and prove that you can be a competent gun owner before you can get a gun. More so if you want an assault rifle. Law abiding citizens should have nothing to worry about, maybe they would even learn more about gun ownership, get to know other gun owners even. Not sure that would help either honestly, but at least it is something
 

gtalk12

Ravens Ring of Honor
The morality issue is going to lead into a different conversation
 

K-Dog

MVP
Oh I know they can but again against an AR-15 these trained professionals wouldn't go in, can't be a glowing endorsement for what they thought their chances were against such a gun.

Help me understand what exactly do you mean by the bolded statement.
 

DeVito52

Ravens Ring of Honor
So all these armed people were scared of going in against a guy with an AR-15 but apparently arming teachers with no real training is the solution
Either these cops are the biggest pussies on the planet or there had to be some other ulterior motive (which still makes them pussies since they were trained for scenarios like this.......at least I think they were trained).
Just saying, one of the teachers on the news said she saw the shooter at the end of the hallway and said she thought he was a police officer. Dressed in full body armor etc.

Why didn’t the officers go inside you ask? Why didn’t the fbi act when it was clear the kid was a danger to society? Perhaps it was all set up to further the agenda of strict gun laws.
That idiot pretty much ruined any argument for possibly allowing teachers to be armed. I would not know how law enforcement could identify an armed teacher over a bad guy during a stressful active armed shooter scenario anyway. I wonder if retired law enforcement officers, who qualify under HR218 every year could be utilized to protect schools? They would probably need special certification and training on top of their national carry certification. They probably could be paid the equivalent of a bus driver to supplement a pension, which would be cheaper than hiring extra school resource officers, and much cheaper than building new safer schools. These retired officers working in schools would be familiar with the troubled students and may be able to spot potential danger. They could wear a special uniform and local law enforcement officers could check on them at least once a day during their patrol. Just a thought, as it may be something worth at least looking into.
And to add on to the previous theory, they had to make sure any thoughts of arming teachers is easily washed aside.

Don’t trust the government.

I don’t necessarily believe any of this but it definitely makes you think
 

52520Andrew

Pro Bowler
Help me understand what exactly do you mean by the bolded statement.
Just because something can do a lot of damage doesn't mean that something that can do even more doesn't exist.

I'll put it this way. The bomb used by far right terrorists to blow up a government building in Oklahoma City in 1995 did a lot of damage. I don't think anyone in their right mind would say that the damage(or potential damage) was comparable to say the Tsar Bomba(biggest nuke ever blown up).

I don't know what these people were armed with but given their reactions, I am willing to bet that the AR-15(basically a military weapon) was a much more threatening gun. Also a lot of these mass shooters use ammo that is far more effective in killing people than standard stuff. I don't know what ammo the Florida shooter used but the ammo the Vegas shooter used was far more effective than what you usually see in gun related injuries. I am by no means and expert on ammo so feel free to look it up, I am sure there are plenty of stories talking about the ammo and resulting injuries and autopsies of the victims.

Honestly the Vegas shooting should scare people more than I think it does. Even if they had "good guys with guns" there, people had no clue where the shots were coming from and it isn't like they are going to open fire at a hotel. No amount of armed guards at the event would have changed a thing. And even gun regulations wouldn't have helped much since he had no reason to not be trusted with guns. Nothing really stopping an event like that from happening again in the U.S. regardless to what we decide to do with schools.
 

52520Andrew

Pro Bowler
Just saying, one of the teachers on the news said she saw the shooter at the end of the hallway and said she thought he was a police officer. Dressed in full body armor etc.

Why didn’t the officers go inside you ask? Why didn’t the fbi act when it was clear the kid was a danger to society? Perhaps it was all set up to further the agenda of strict gun laws.

And to add on to the previous theory, they had to make sure any thoughts of arming teachers is easily washed aside.

Don’t trust the government.

I don’t necessarily believe any of this but it definitely makes you think

I get the don't trust the government to an extent but even if we deregulated automatic guns, they wouldn't stand a chance against a military drone. And make no mistake, if the big bad government decided to go after "troublemakers" that is what they would use. It wouldn't be subtle. I think people who seriously think they would be able to defend their homes against a hostile government are in denial about how much power the government has already.
 

cobrajet

Hall of Famer
I get the don't trust the government to an extent but even if we deregulated automatic guns, they wouldn't stand a chance against a military drone. And make no mistake, if the big bad government decided to go after "troublemakers" that is what they would use. It wouldn't be subtle. I think people who seriously think they would be able to defend their homes against a hostile government are in denial about how much power the government has already.
The government is not that stupid though, trust me, the last thing they want is another Ruby Ridge.
 

K-Dog

MVP
Timothy McVey was not far right.

No. The AR-15 is not "basically a millitary weapon".
There are many far more powerful and lethal, fully legal firearms on the market than the AR-15. Which is really not much more than a hunting rifle.

Do you know who Stephen Williford is?
You should.
It would not be surprising to me if you didn't.
More people were killed in a church shooting in Sutherland Springs Texas than in Florida, but it wasn't 24-7 news, with dozens of witnesses being interviewed.
Why do you suppose that was?
The Sutherland Springs shooter was killed by an NRA instructor using an AR-15.
The very gun so many want banned, saved the lives of who knows how many people.

What if I told you the number of lives saved by guns is significantly higher than those killed by guns.
 

Dom McRaven

Hall of Famer
Just saying, one of the teachers on the news said she saw the shooter at the end of the hallway and said she thought he was a police officer. Dressed in full body armor etc.

Why didn’t the officers go inside you ask? Why didn’t the fbi act when it was clear the kid was a danger to society? Perhaps it was all set up to further the agenda of strict gun laws.

And to add on to the previous theory, they had to make sure any thoughts of arming teachers is easily washed aside.

Don’t trust the government.

I don’t necessarily believe any of this but it definitely makes you think
Oh I saw that interview with the teacher too. Pretty scary stuff we're dealing with. As for your theory, while I can't prove it with evidence, I definitely feel that they are people in this government who would do shit like this to prove a point because they have no heart or soul.
 

K-Dog

MVP
Just saying, one of the teachers on the news said she saw the shooter at the end of the hallway and said she thought he was a police officer. Dressed in full body armor etc.

Why didn’t the officers go inside you ask? Why didn’t the fbi act when it was clear the kid was a danger to society? Perhaps it was all set up to further the agenda of strict gun laws.

And to add on to the previous theory, they had to make sure any thoughts of arming teachers is easily washed aside.

Don’t trust the government.

I don’t necessarily believe any of this but it definitely makes you think


It scares the shit out of me that there is even a smidgen of a possibility this could be a legit thing.
There are quite a few nuggets that make one say... "hunh....."
We know our own Mayor at one point in time ordered a "stand down"

I don't trust our government. If there is a snowball's chance in hell this could possibly be something , would be the exact reason we should be armed.
 

52520Andrew

Pro Bowler
Timothy McVey was not far right.

No. The AR-15 is not "basically a millitary weapon".
There are many far more powerful and lethal, fully legal firearms on the market than the AR-15. Which is really not much more than a hunting rifle.

Do you know who Stephen Williford is?
You should.
It would not be surprising to me if you didn't.
More people were killed in a church shooting in Sutherland Springs Texas than in Florida, but it wasn't 24-7 news, with dozens of witnesses being interviewed.
Why do you suppose that was?
The Sutherland Springs shooter was killed by an NRA instructor using an AR-15.
The very gun so many want banned, saved the lives of who knows how many people.

What if I told you the number of lives saved by guns is significantly higher than those killed by guns.

Guy against a tyrannical government and scared stiff by stories of government overreach not far right? You read around breitbart comment sections much? I know enough people on the right to know they worry about the same stuff. Have you not seen the conspiracy theories being peddled out by people like Alex Jones in the wake of this latest shooting? Heck some of them are even being implied on this thread. Maybe you don't agree with him but he was far right in his ideologies.

You ever heard of the M16? AR-15 isn't automatic but that is about the only difference between the guns. Only reason we don't have a bunch of people running around with M16s is because automatic guns are actually regulated and you can't buy automatic guns made after 1986. Thank goodness considering how much damage bump stocks have been shown to cause in places like Vegas.

Yeah after the shooting went onto become one of the 10 deadliest shootings in U.S. history. And yeah it was all over the news, I actually heard about it just after my church got out(we have a late mass). I guess that is where the bar is being set? While every single other developed country in the world doesn't have to deal with mass shootings on a bi monthly basis like we do, at least we can stop them after dozens of people die? THAT is what we should be excited about?

And nice stat, where did you get it from? I could pull up stats saying you are more likely to be harmed in a gun accident in your home than to successfully use one in self defense. I know Statistics, you can use stats to tell whatever story you want since a lot of people fail to realize that it is really easy to manipulate the numbers that go into certain statistics by how you define things. I mean if literally anytime someone took out a gun goes down as someone was in a life and death situation like the Sutherland Springs shooting, you can make the stats really convincing in your favor.

The government is not that stupid though, trust me, the last thing they want is another Ruby Ridge.

The point is that if the government wanted to eliminate someone enough, they could. They have dealt with guerrilla warfare for decades, it isn't something they aren't used to. And it wouldn't be hard to come up with some excuse either considering the political climate is so bad right now that people can't even agree on things like inauguration crowd size.
 

Inqui

Pro Bowler
Not saying you were, more just ranting about it, but it is a common excuse and is only used as that because nothing is done about it. Frustrates me it is always brought up and then the same people who bring the stuff up don't do a thing about it. Like if people are so sure mental health is the problem then why not do something to address depression in this country? I mean it is a huge problem all on its own.
This is the thing that bugs me as well. I can accept mental health issues having a strong correlation with mass shootings, but there needs to be a next step. Mental health is a serious issue that needs to be addressed so that mass shootings can be brought down, so what's the plan to fix it? Make everyone buy private health insurance? Simply bringing up mental health without making any kind of next step honestly strikes me as more of an excuse to not talk about gun control.
 

Inqui

Pro Bowler
And while I'm here, I want to go (back) on the record saying these steel and aluminium tariffs are a terrible idea, and Trump is categorically wrong when he says trade wars are "easy to win". The national security excuse is bollocks too, Russia's the fifth biggest steel importer (China isn't even in the top 10) and the second biggest aluminium importer and China the fourth biggest, yet steel's getting the 25% tariff and aluminium 10%. Meanwhile, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, South Korea, Japan and Australia are the ones actually getting hit hardest.

In return, if China wants to hit back it won't go tit-for-tat on steel. It'll put tariffs on net US export industries - hitting something more like dairy, aircraft manufacturing, soybeans or corn. Historically the gains made in protected sectors have been negligible, but more than offset by losses in other sectors. Going back and forth as Trump seems to be willing to do simply compounds those losses across the board. There are no winners in a trade war, the objective is simply to lose less seriously than everyone else.

Meanwhile, the tariffs ignore the reasons the US is a net importer of these things in the first place: the US simply isn't producing enough or the stuff that is being produced isn't good enough or cost-effective enough. Unless anyone here is buying aluminium and bauxite for their own personal use, that 1268.34 million USD of imports goes to other producers - such as Herschy's or Budweiser. Slapping on tariffs is adding to the cost of production for every single producer that uses steel or aluminium, which either gets absorbed as a loss or gets passed on to the consumer as a price hike. Change the 25% tariff on steel to a 25% consumption tax on steel (which is what it is) and it gets clearer who the ultimate loser is. Again, all this to do more damage to allied nations while ignoring the costs to other sectors.
 

Somerset Ravens

Pro Bowler
And while I'm here, I want to go (back) on the record saying these steel and aluminium tariffs are a terrible idea, and Trump is categorically wrong when he says trade wars are "easy to win". The national security excuse is bollocks too, Russia's the fifth biggest steel importer (China isn't even in the top 10) and the second biggest aluminium importer and China the fourth biggest, yet steel's getting the 25% tariff and aluminium 10%. Meanwhile, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, South Korea, Japan and Australia are the ones actually getting hit hardest.

In return, if China wants to hit back it won't go tit-for-tat on steel. It'll put tariffs on net US export industries - hitting something more like dairy, aircraft manufacturing, soybeans or corn. Historically the gains made in protected sectors have been negligible, but more than offset by losses in other sectors. Going back and forth as Trump seems to be willing to do simply compounds those losses across the board. There are no winners in a trade war, the objective is simply to lose less seriously than everyone else.

Meanwhile, the tariffs ignore the reasons the US is a net importer of these things in the first place: the US simply isn't producing enough or the stuff that is being produced isn't good enough or cost-effective enough. Unless anyone here is buying aluminium and bauxite for their own personal use, that 1268.34 million USD of imports goes to other producers - such as Herschy's or Budweiser. Slapping on tariffs is adding to the cost of production for every single producer that uses steel or aluminium, which either gets absorbed as a loss or gets passed on to the consumer as a price hike. Change the 25% tariff on steel to a 25% consumption tax on steel (which is what it is) and it gets clearer who the ultimate loser is. Again, all this to do more damage to allied nations while ignoring the costs to other sectors.

I certainly agree with you that the tariffs on steel and aluminum are a bad idea. This a bad trade policy. I do expect retaliation from countries that the United States imports steel from. I see this hurting the natural gas industry that exports to
many of the countries ( South Korea, China, Mexico, Japan, Taiwan, India, Brazil ) that send us steel. This will certainly raise costs on steel and aluminum products but I feel retaliation will be a bigger problem. It feels like Trump is returning a favor.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Oh I know they can but again against an AR-15 these trained professionals wouldn't go in, can't be a glowing endorsement for what they thought their chances were against such a gun.

Not saying you were, more just ranting about it, but it is a common excuse and is only used as that because nothing is done about it. Frustrates me it is always brought up and then the same people who bring the stuff up don't do a thing about it. Like if people are so sure mental health is the problem then why not do something to address depression in this country? I mean it is a huge problem all on its own.

They aren't spending all the tax payer money to do that. Teachers barely get enough money and supplies for their classrooms as is. And I am pretty sure Trump is proposing more budget cuts to education. Wouldn't count on them all of a sudden spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to redesign thousands of schools across the country. And then mass shooters would just go somewhere else.

A lot of these mass shootings are where the crowds are. If you wanna have to constantly be under armed guard to do something as simple as watch a movie or go to church or go to a concert(and tell me how effective those armed guards would have been in Vegas, they wouldn't have done a thing), all so you don't have to worry about some maniac shooting up the place, that is a problem. I mean for people so worried about the big bad government, how does that represent freedom to have to be under armed guard all the time? That seems a heck of a lot closer to tyranny than taking away guns.

I have nothing against lawful citizens who want to own a gun being able to get one but we shouldn't just give guns out to anyone that passes a background check. I mean if that was how we gave out car licenses the roads would be even worse than they are now(and believe me they are bad as is). You should be trained how to use guns, how to safely store guns, and prove that you can be a competent gun owner before you can get a gun. More so if you want an assault rifle. Law abiding citizens should have nothing to worry about, maybe they would even learn more about gun ownership, get to know other gun owners even. Not sure that would help either honestly, but at least it is something

You do realize that other law enforcement officials entered the building right. Personally I have other ideas as to why they didn't enter the building.

You know at one time riflery and archery were part of high schools curriculum mainly from phys ed. Schools were a lot safer back then.

See what the thing is we have laws on the book now right. How come we always have people with multiple gun violations walking the streets? Just constantly being released with a slap on the wrist. How come we're not enforcing the laws we have on the books now? We also have background checks. Why are peoples history not on the books?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...e-policy-to-report-fewer-arrests-suspensions/

Here's a nice Breitbart article complete with a lot of links to the govt. Check out the link where it talks about Obama's Promise Program. Just giving you a Breitbart article since you made fun of them but there's a lot of links. Cant deny those facts. Schools aren't reporting criminal behavior. That's a liberal policy. I'm just saying that going after legal gun owners which is basically what it comes down too is not gonna solve anything like at @K-Dog said lives were saved at the Texas church shooting cuz a neighbor had a legally owned AR-15 that saved multiple lives and really whats wrong with having some security at a concert. You make it sound like it'd be some sort of police state and that's ridiculous.

Now your last paragraph I agree with especially with the training part. 100% agree but if laws aren't enforced whats the sense.
 
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