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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
I certainly agree with you that the tariffs on steel and aluminum are a bad idea. This a bad trade policy. I do expect retaliation from countries that the United States imports steel from. I see this hurting the natural gas industry that exports to
many of the countries ( South Korea, China, Mexico, Japan, Taiwan, India, Brazil ) that send us steel. This will certainly raise costs on steel and aluminum products but I feel retaliation will be a bigger problem. It feels like Trump is returning a favor.

Do other countries especially China put tariffs on our goods? Why shouldn't we do the same? Are we in debt to pretty much everybody including Mexico for gawds sakes? Gotta quit thinking short term and look at the big picture. As for energy we're producing energy much more than we have for a long time. Our economy is booming right now which is why we keep having interest rate hikes. Its happened 3 times so far. I'm trusting Trump on this one.
 

Somerset Ravens

Pro Bowler
Do other countries especially China put tariffs on our goods? Why shouldn't we do the same? Are we in debt to pretty much everybody including Mexico for gawds sakes? Gotta quit thinking short term and look at the big picture. As for energy we're producing energy much more than we have for a long time. Our economy is booming right now which is why we keep having interest rate hikes. Its happened 3 times so far. I'm trusting Trump on this one.
Who is putting tariffs on U.S. exports? I do agree the U.S. economy is doing better, but how does this help?
 

Inqui

Pro Bowler
Do other countries especially China put tariffs on our goods? Why shouldn't we do the same? Are we in debt to pretty much everybody including Mexico for gawds sakes? Gotta quit thinking short term and look at the big picture. As for energy we're producing energy much more than we have for a long time. Our economy is booming right now which is why we keep having interest rate hikes. Its happened 3 times so far. I'm trusting Trump on this one.
The interest rate hikes were implemented by Janet Yellen in response to low unemployment (ie, expected future inflation) and were telegraphed about a year in advance (while Obama was president). This was from August 2016 and this from as early as May.

That's also not how government debt works. If I want to borrow $1000 I can issue bonds to people on PurpleFlock where I sell 10 lots of $100 and promise to give (say) $5 to each $100 lot at the end of the term (so you give me $100 now and I give you $105 in a year's time or something). I don't care who I loan those $100 blocks to, only that I get the $1000 in the first place. And if you bought one of those lots and then decided you wanted to raise $500 the same way I could buy a $100 lot off you. It wouldn't matter who's in debt to whom - my financial picture could be better or worse than yours but who has each other's debt isn't relevant to that picture. The issue is if someone looks like they might start defaulting. If I lose my job and you don't trust me to pay that $105 you can sell your bond to someone else, who'll want it for less than the $100 you paid (if someone buys that bond for $98 they're getting a 7% return rather than the 5% return you were going to get - which is reflected in the fact that I just lost my job and I represent a higher risk). Simply being in debt to you or anyone else doesn't mean I'm in a bad financial position - you need context for whether I can service that debt or whether that $1000 is going to worthwhile things. It's also got nothing to do with trade policy but I digress.

WTO rules essentially state that once you've lowered a tariff on something for someone, you can't bring those tariffs back up. Aside from being a geopolitical tool to encourage countries to liberalise their economies (instead of becoming Communists) it means the world economies have been reducing barriers to trade for 70-plus years, which has been improving productivity and prosperity for everyone. China joined the party late, so they had a higher baseline to work from, which is why the tariffs are higher than everywhere else for now. Over time those will get brought down to everyone else's levels as new trade deals get struck, but in the meantime the WTO's laid out grounds to impose new tariffs where retaliation isn't allowed. The US launched 14 cases against China under Obama and won them all. It's an extremely slow process, but it prevents rushed actions that end up shooting everyone in the foot. Launching protectionist actions (especially if not backed by international trade law - which dollars to donuts these tariffs aren't) only raises that baseline higher.

So with all that in mind, what's this bigger picture? Again, it'll hurt friendly nations more than any geopolitical competitors, but it'll also hurt US-based producers that use steel and aluminium as inputs. To say nothing of the fact that Trump's simply repeating a mistake Obama and Bush both made that ended up becoming net negatives. The best case scenario is that every country involved comes out a few hundred billion dollars a year worse off (ie, these tariffs come in and there's a retaliation and it gets left at that - like it did when Obama and Bush did it). The worst case is that Trump's prepared to launch a full-scale trade war where each of those mistakes keeps building on each other and a whole range of sectors get hit to the point of a global recession.
 
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rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I certainly agree with you that the tariffs on steel and aluminum are a bad idea. This a bad trade policy. I do expect retaliation from countries that the United States imports steel from. I see this hurting the natural gas industry that exports to
many of the countries ( South Korea, China, Mexico, Japan, Taiwan, India, Brazil ) that send us steel. This will certainly raise costs on steel and aluminum products but I feel retaliation will be a bigger problem. It feels like Trump is returning a favor.

The EU has already retaliated - listen to jean Claude juncker talking on the matter - he literally bemoaned the whole situation as stupid but the USA forced their hand so they now have to do it back as a matter of course
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Who is putting tariffs on U.S. exports? I do agree the U.S. economy is doing better, but how does this help?

China and big time. Trump is only putting tariffs on steel and aluminum and China with its cheap steel which is helped by no tariffs and that's what killed our steel business for ex Beth Steel. Look at how much stuff they own in this country right now.

Right now have to go to work and have no time to find suitable links.

The EU has already retaliated - listen to jean Claude juncker talking on the matter - he literally bemoaned the whole situation as stupid but the USA forced their hand so they now have to do it back as a matter of course

For what? Do you import steel and aluminum to us?
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
For what? Do you import steel and aluminum to us?

yes the EU does (and its not just china that these tariffs are going to be imposed upon - Trump has already started a war of words on this issue before he has even imposed the tariffs with the EU) but they are gonna be hit with a 25% tariff on exports to the USA by a president who's already said trade wars are good...
In fact the US imports more steel and aluminium from the EU than anywhere else in the world other than canada

and of course the EU will prepare because Trump has already pre-empted this retaliation (so its not like he knew it wasnt gonna happen) and has said that any EU retaliation on American exports will result in a raised tariff on EU made cars...

i dont see how this helps literally anyone - it will raise prices and wont inject extra money into the economies on any side and it certainly will not fix the deficit in the US either
 

The Raven

Veteran
Gary Cohn actually quit as top economic adviser over the steel tariff. Safe to say the tariff is fucking moronic.

I'm smart enough to know what I don't know, and I'm inclined to listen to economists on this.
 

gtalk12

Ravens Ring of Honor
I always looked at people funny when they say things along the lines of fighting our government in the invent they went a
Should be interesting to see how this pans out.

20 year old sues Dicks for age discrimination.

Not only is it a hot button social issue, not only is it a Constitutional issue, it is a free and independent business issue as well.

Very curious how this will go.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/mar/06/20-year-old-sues-dicks-walmart-over-new-gun-polici/


Imagine wanting a gun so bad that you want to buy it from only ONE store. If he wins, it's going to open the floodgates to other things.

Good luck owning a business and coming up with policy smh
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Should be interesting to see how this pans out.

20 year old sues Dicks for age discrimination.

Not only is it a hot button social issue, not only is it a Constitutional issue, it is a free and independent business issue as well.

Very curious how this will go.
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2018/mar/06/20-year-old-sues-dicks-walmart-over-new-gun-polici/

if he wins then 17 year olds will wonder why they cant legally go to nightclubs...
or people will start suing theme parks for not letting everyone on the ride...
 

gtalk12

Ravens Ring of Honor
if he wins then 17 year olds will wonder why they cant legally go to nightclubs...
or people will start suing theme parks for not letting everyone on the ride...

this has potential to get out of hand. people have shown to not be able to handle things very well without abusing them
 

K-Dog

MVP
I always looked at people funny when they say things along the lines of fighting our government in the invent they went a



Imagine wanting a gun so bad that you want to buy it from only ONE store. If he wins, it's going to open the floodgates to other things.

Good luck owning a business and coming up with policy smh

Two stores actually.
Wal-Mart is now named in the suit as well.
This whole thing echoes of the wedding cake suit. The only difference is this involves the Constitution.
 

K-Dog

MVP
if he wins then 17 year olds will wonder why they cant legally go to nightclubs...
or people will start suing theme parks for not letting everyone on the ride...

Your right to go into a nightclub is not a right at all. It is an earned privelage. Gun ownership is a constitutionaly protected right.
Big difference.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Then why can’t a 12 year old buy a gun?

A 12 yr old is a minor. A 20 yr old is an adult who could have a family and be living on his own. He should have every right to own a gun. Drinking alcohol lets say is not a right. Gun ownership is. The bottomline is you are considered an adult at 18 by law here in the US
 

52520Andrew

Pro Bowler
You do realize that other law enforcement officials entered the building right. Personally I have other ideas as to why they didn't enter the building.

You know at one time riflery and archery were part of high schools curriculum mainly from phys ed. Schools were a lot safer back then.

See what the thing is we have laws on the book now right. How come we always have people with multiple gun violations walking the streets? Just constantly being released with a slap on the wrist. How come we're not enforcing the laws we have on the books now? We also have background checks. Why are peoples history not on the books?

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...e-policy-to-report-fewer-arrests-suspensions/

Here's a nice Breitbart article complete with a lot of links to the govt. Check out the link where it talks about Obama's Promise Program. Just giving you a Breitbart article since you made fun of them but there's a lot of links. Cant deny those facts. Schools aren't reporting criminal behavior. That's a liberal policy. I'm just saying that going after legal gun owners which is basically what it comes down too is not gonna solve anything like at @K-Dog said lives were saved at the Texas church shooting cuz a neighbor had a legally owned AR-15 that saved multiple lives and really whats wrong with having some security at a concert. You make it sound like it'd be some sort of police state and that's ridiculous.

Now your last paragraph I agree with especially with the training part. 100% agree but if laws aren't enforced whats the sense.

Of course, it is their job. But if there are several people backing out of what they signed up for, you have to wonder why. Sure it is low, maybe 4 out of 100 but that is still something that should be looked at. If we can be 4% more effective at stopping this stuff, it could make the difference between the school officer going in or not. Honestly maybe we should arm them with custom AR-15s but then again, there is no difference between that and a standard issue pistol apparently. Doesn't quite add up.

Yeah looks like firearm homicides are on the decline so I would venture to say things have been getting safer even with mass shootings becoming more common. I know Baltimore is a mess but the rest of the country has actually been doing pretty solidly in terms of crime. And no, there isn't much room for messing with statistics based on weapon used during homicide. Someone either died or didn't and they either have bullet wounds or they don't.

firearm_homicide_deaths.png


I agree enforcing current laws would help, it would actually be doing something as opposed to blaming mass shootings on anything but guns and whining about how it is being politicized(although the second a terrorist does something, that should always be politicized). But when you guys have the house, senate, and president and have failed to ban bump stocks which even the NRA supported, hard for me to be optimistic you guys would even try to enforce the current laws. Would it really be hard to let people in the justice system know to be harder on people when the executive branch(you know, the one tasked with enforcing current laws) is controlled by Republicans? As for the NRA, when they are worried that people who are on the terrorism watch list may not be able to access guns, it makes it really hard for me to take anything they say seriously whatsoever.

To be fair I said breitbart comment sections and I brought them up to say they are far right. First thing wiki uses to describe breitbart is that they are far right. Even breitbart would probably tell you they are far right. You read through those comment sections with people convinced that Obama and the left are the new world order and that they are trying to take over the country and put us in every dystopian novel ever. You tell me how those people are so different from Timothy McVeigh in their thoughts. I mean if you want me to start posting what some people say on there to hammer the point home we can do that.

I am not here to argue about whether schools should be harder on students who are breaking laws, in fact they probably should be. Don't get me wrong, the FBI could have certainly done more in this case but the next one in a couple months may not be the case. It wasn't in Vegas, or Sandy Hook, or Columbine, or Sutherland Springs, or Orlando, getting the point? This is becoming a bi monthly tradition where we should be happy only 26 victims died because someone was able to get their AR-15 out of the car like at Sutherland Springs. Honestly pretty incredulous at that thought process.

I mean people certainly have the right to defend themselves at home from intruders but there is a big difference between that and all the guns the Vegas guy had. Honestly I might end up getting a gun at some point, probably would be a shotgun since accuracy when I am scrambling in the middle of the night in a potential fight is probably not going to be good. There are certainly times where it can save people's lives. The amount of times this happens is still up for debate(I'll get to that, patience) but still it is in the bill of rights, there is no denying that.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Two stores actually.
Wal-Mart is now named in the suit as well.
This whole thing echoes of the wedding cake suit. The only difference is this involves the Constitution.

Whatever happened with the wedding cake suit?
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Of course, it is their job. But if there are several people backing out of what they signed up for, you have to wonder why. Sure it is low, maybe 4 out of 100 but that is still something that should be looked at. If we can be 4% more effective at stopping this stuff, it could make the difference between the school officer going in or not. Honestly maybe we should arm them with custom AR-15s but then again, there is no difference between that and a standard issue pistol apparently. Doesn't quite add up.

Yeah looks like firearm homicides are on the decline so I would venture to say things have been getting safer even with mass shootings becoming more common. I know Baltimore is a mess but the rest of the country has actually been doing pretty solidly in terms of crime. And no, there isn't much room for messing with statistics based on weapon used during homicide. Someone either died or didn't and they either have bullet wounds or they don't.

firearm_homicide_deaths.png


I agree enforcing current laws would help, it would actually be doing something as opposed to blaming mass shootings on anything but guns and whining about how it is being politicized(although the second a terrorist does something, that should always be politicized). But when you guys have the house, senate, and president and have failed to ban bump stocks which even the NRA supported, hard for me to be optimistic you guys would even try to enforce the current laws. Would it really be hard to let people in the justice system know to be harder on people when the executive branch(you know, the one tasked with enforcing current laws) is controlled by Republicans? As for the NRA, when they are worried that people who are on the terrorism watch list may not be able to access guns, it makes it really hard for me to take anything they say seriously whatsoever.

To be fair I said breitbart comment sections and I brought them up to say they are far right. First thing wiki uses to describe breitbart is that they are far right. Even breitbart would probably tell you they are far right. You read through those comment sections with people convinced that Obama and the left are the new world order and that they are trying to take over the country and put us in every dystopian novel ever. You tell me how those people are so different from Timothy McVeigh in their thoughts. I mean if you want me to start posting what some people say on there to hammer the point home we can do that.

I am not here to argue about whether schools should be harder on students who are breaking laws, in fact they probably should be. Don't get me wrong, the FBI could have certainly done more in this case but the next one in a couple months may not be the case. It wasn't in Vegas, or Sandy Hook, or Columbine, or Sutherland Springs, or Orlando, getting the point? This is becoming a bi monthly tradition where we should be happy only 26 victims died because someone was able to get their AR-15 out of the car like at Sutherland Springs. Honestly pretty incredulous at that thought process.

I mean people certainly have the right to defend themselves at home from intruders but there is a big difference between that and all the guns the Vegas guy had. Honestly I might end up getting a gun at some point, probably would be a shotgun since accuracy when I am scrambling in the middle of the night in a potential fight is probably not going to be good. There are certainly times where it can save people's lives. The amount of times this happens is still up for debate(I'll get to that, patience) but still it is in the bill of rights, there is no denying that.

Where are you getting the information that these 4 men didn't go in cuz they only had pistols while the perp had an AR-15?

Another thing is I'm talking about liberal judges giving slaps on the wrist mainly in the urban areas on gun violations. Then we got sanctuary cities protecting illegal aliens endangering people from ICE lately from whistleblowing lol. So when we got democrats doing everything to screw the executive branch you blame repubs lol. Also didn't Trump say he wanted to ban bump stocks?

You know the dems had complete control in 2009-10. Did nothing on gun control.
 
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