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The General Front 7 Thread

Pierce has been a GOOD player as an UFDA for the past 2 seasons. He's really good. Infact his first 2 seasons have been more impressive than brandon williams first 2.
 
Truth said:
How can Pierce be disappointing as a former UDFA? He's turned into an above average starter; he's an upper-tier run defender, highlighted by the fact that he's tied Linval Joseph and Khalil Mack for most run stops among defensive linemen and edge rushers. He also isn't a liability as a pass rusher, which is more than acceptable for someone predominantly playing at 0T. Had he been an early selection, he'd probably be meeting or exceeding expectations. For a UDFA, he's arguably been one of the best values over the past few years.
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He was being hyped as about to breakout as one of better interior rushers this year. And the run defense was terrible when Williams was out. And for all his run stops there was a lot of blame being thrown his way getting pushed around when run defense was getting smashed. I mean yeah a good value as an undrafted but far from the hype of Brandon Williams caliber taking on blocks and making players around him better. While many touted him going to be a menacing interior rusher as well. Maybe a little unrealistic expectations. But hasn't met that hype
 
Sledge Hammer said:
He was being hyped as about to breakout as one of better interior rushers this year. And the run defense was terrible when Williams was out. And for all his run stops there was a lot of blame being thrown his way getting pushed around when run defense was getting smashed. I mean yeah a good value as an undrafted but far from the hype of Brandon Williams caliber taking on blocks and making players around him better. While many touted him going to be a menacing interior rusher as well. Maybe a little unrealistic expectations. But hasn't met that hype
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The issues with our run defense during Williams' absence hardly fell on the performance of the defensive line. Our third level rush defense was atrocious, and our second level struggled in that department outside of Terrell Suggs and C.J. Mosely, who was somewhat uneven himself at times. Leonard Fournett's longest two runs on an ineffective afternoon came on lost containment by the LILB. Pierce had the most run stops among all defensive linemen in the NFL against Pittsburgh with 6. Jordan Howard would've been held to a 3.25 YPC had it not been for Eric Weddle's misguided attempt at a forced fumble two yards past the LOS on a stretch run away from Pierce. And then the defense struggled to defend the run against Minnesota even with Williams in the line up. Even then, on the 29 yard TD, both Pierce and Williams were doubled out of the play, with Pierce on the outside, and the end result mostly fell on Suggs being carried past the gap by the Kyle Rudolph and Weddle being single blocked by Adam Thielen. Now Pierce hasn't been outright perfect in this department. For example, he was in position to prevent Latavius Murray's cutback on the 35 yard rip but didn't locate Murray in time. That being said, he's easily been a terrific run defender this season. He hasn't blown anyone away as a pass rusher but he's been capable in that facet, and you're rarely going to find an NT who's an outstanding run defender and an equally remarkable pass rusher. I'm unsure as to whom hyped him up to be elite in that category, but as you've mentioned yourself, any such expectations were likely overselling somewhat. In either case, he's a well above-average defensive lineman. There's little else that should've reasonably been asked for considering that he's in his second year and was a part time player last year as a walk-on.
 
Truth said:
The issues with our run defense during Williams' absence hardly fell on the performance of the defensive line. Our third level rush defense was atrocious, and our second level struggled in that department outside of Terrell Suggs and C.J. Mosely, who was somewhat uneven himself at times. Leonard Fournett's longest two runs on an ineffective afternoon came on lost containment by the LILB. Pierce had the most run stops among all defensive linemen in the NFL against Pittsburgh with 6. Jordan Howard would've been held to a 3.25 YPC had it not been for Eric Weddle's misguided attempt at a forced fumble two yards past the LOS on a stretch run away from Pierce. And then the defense struggled to defend the run against Minnesota even with Williams in the line up. Even then, on the 29 yard TD, both Pierce and Williams were doubled out of the play, with Pierce on the outside, and the end result mostly fell on Suggs being carried past the gap by the Kyle Rudolph and Weddle being single blocked by Adam Thielen. Now Pierce hasn't been outright perfect in this department. For example, he was in position to prevent Latavius Murray's cutback on the 35 yard rip but didn't locate Murray in time. That being said, he's easily been a terrific run defender this season. He hasn't blown anyone away as a pass rusher but he's been capable in that facet, and you're rarely going to find an NT who's an outstanding run defender and an equally remarkable pass rusher. I'm unsure as to whom hyped him up to be elite in that category, but as you've mentioned yourself, any such expectations were likely overselling somewhat. In either case, he's a well above-average defensive lineman. There's little else that should've reasonably been asked for considering that he's in his second year and was a part time player last year as a walk-on.
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Some members here really hyped him. As well as an article or 2 revved everybody up about his potential. While a little unrealistic for a NT. I would guess the idea was he would play next to Williams the NT. I didn't read much into it but sure bought in lol. I really would like an interior rusher for our defense. We all know I'm looking for Henry to become a football player as much as he is athlete and be an interior rusher. And I bought in the Pierce hype. Gene Atkins is my favorite player ever coming out of college. I wanted ravens to get him in round2. I was soooooo pissed when we took cody!!!!!!!!! That and I really think a dominant interior rusher puts a very good defense over as feared has me buying and even creating hype of our interior rushers. I thought for sure we would pick him in round3 as a bpa. I liked Aaron Donald but knew he would be off the board b4 we picked. Then I liked Grady a lot but not as much as Atkins. But nonetheless can't believe we took carl Davis over Grady.

So waiting for that interior rusher. Sorry about being off topic. I should begin interior rushers thread lol. Btw I do believe Pierce could be a game wrecker and better at rushing the QB than his run stuff/occupy blockers role. If he were to lean out carefully to about 300lbs or so. The way he moves I think is reminiscent of a QB rusher. His height and squatty power is ideal for gaining leverage and exploding toward the QB. He is pretty explosive and flexible for 335lbs. If he played at 295 with no loss of strength I believe he could be a game wrecker rushing the QB. If he ran a 4.98 at 335 lbs. At 295 he would probably run in the 4.8 range. Maybe even sub 4.8.
 
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Sledge Hammer said:
Some members here really hyped him. As well as an article or 2 revved everybody up about his potential. While a little unrealistic for a NT. I would guess the idea was he would play next to Williams the NT. I didn't read much into it but sure bought in lol. I really would like an interior rusher for our defense. We all know I'm looking for Henry to become a football player as much as he is athlete and be an interior rusher. And I bought in the Pierce hype. Gene Atkins is my favorite player ever coming out of college. I wanted ravens to get him in round2. I was soooooo pissed when we took cody!!!!!!!!! That and I really think a dominant interior rusher puts a very good defense over as feared has me buying and even creating hype of our interior rushers. I thought for sure we would pick him in round3 as a bpa. I liked Aaron Donald but knew he would be off the board b4 we picked. Then I liked Grady a lot but not as much as Atkins. But nonetheless can't believe we took carl Davis over Grady.

So waiting for that interior rusher. Sorry about being off topic. I should begin interior rushers thread lol. Btw I do believe Pierce could be a game wrecker and better at rushing the QB than his run stuff/occupy blockers role. If he were to lean out carefully to about 300lbs or so. The way he moves I think is reminiscent of a QB rusher. His height and squatty power is ideal for gaining leverage and exploding toward the QB. He is pretty explosive and flexible for 335lbs. If he played at 295 with no loss of strength I believe he could be a game wrecker rushing the QB. If he ran a 4.98 at 335 lbs. At 295 he would probably run in the 4.8 range. Maybe even sub 4.8.
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I did see some favorable hype from a couple of members. I would actually wager that the initial plan mirrored the current designations. When sharing the field last season, we placed Pierce at NT with Williams at the 3T. I did wonder whether they would switch, which was why I was somewhat caught off-guard by the fact that we reset the market for Williams; but for all intents and purposes, it should've served as an indication of Williams' continued stay alongside of NT instead of at 0T, which I personally missed. I have been very pleasantly surprised with Williams in the pass rushing department this season.

For what it's worth, I liked Henry on tape. I also wasn't enthralled with Cody's. I didn't have a chance to see any of Atkins' collegiate tape, but I was quite high on Jarrett. Jarrett, like Telvin Smith and Tony Jefferson, were among the surprise fallers in recent memory who didn't have a specific reason as to why they weren't selected within their projected range. That being said, I didn't foresee us drafting Grady. That's mostly because he would've been miscast in anything other than a one-gapping scheme, preferably at 3T. I would've absolutely loved him in the middle rounds regardless, even if as a sub-package player, but I didn't expect it. Davis was an enigma. The first tape I saw of his was honestly first round worthy. The second on its own merit appeared that of a mid-to-late round prospect. To his defense, Davis has played mostly well this season, though Jarrett was a better prospect in my eyes and has been the better player. However, unless we switched to the 4-3, it would've been difficult to envision him having the same amount of success.
 
Atkins is a single gap lineman and wouldnt have been a good fit for our defense, but we would have changed to fit his talent.
 
BloodRaven said:
Atkins is a single gap lineman and wouldnt have been a good fit for our defense, but we would have changed to fit his talent.
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we never change to fit players talents.

we force players to do what our schemes dictate wether they can or cant.

pretty much the biggest reasons why players we drafted rarely manage to make the next step.
 
Truth said:
I did see some favorable hype from a couple of members. I would actually wager that the initial plan mirrored the current designations. When sharing the field last season, we placed Pierce at NT with Williams at the 3T. I did wonder whether they would switch, which was why I was somewhat caught off-guard by the fact that we reset the market for Williams; but for all intents and purposes, it should've served as an indication of Williams' continued stay alongside of NT instead of at 0T, which I personally missed. I have been very pleasantly surprised with Williams in the pass rushing department this season.

For what it's worth, I liked Henry on tape. I also wasn't enthralled with Cody's. I didn't have a chance to see any of Atkins' collegiate tape, but I was quite high on Jarrett. Jarrett, like Telvin Smith and Tony Jefferson, were among the surprise fallers in recent memory who didn't have a specific reason as to why they weren't selected within their projected range. That being said, I didn't foresee us drafting Grady. That's mostly because he would've been miscast in anything other than a one-gapping scheme, preferably at 3T. I would've absolutely loved him in the middle rounds regardless, even if as a sub-package player, but I didn't expect it. Davis was an enigma. The first tape I saw of his was honestly first round worthy. The second on its own merit appeared that of a mid-to-late round prospect. To his defense, Davis has played mostly well this season, though Jarrett was a better prospect in my eyes and has been the better player. However, unless we switched to the 4-3, it would've been difficult to envision him having the same amount of success.
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I really don't see why we cant switch to a 4-3 with all the talent we got on the dline where Pierce can play the 1 and Williams the 3 or vice versa with shifts and rotate Davis and Ricard in and just leave Correa off the field and let Onwauser see the field in extra DB/LB situations where he lines up closer to the LOS
 
Willbacker said:
I really don't see why we cant switch to a 4-3 with all the talent we got on the dline where Pierce can play the 1 and Williams the 3 or vice versa with shifts and rotate Davis and Ricard in and just leave Correa off the field and let Onwauser see the field in extra DB/LB situations where he lines up closer to the LOS
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Proof is in the Pudding Game

This thread was far too wordy for me. The winner of this game has playoff potential. Let's see ozze's line put up at crunch time.
 
Tru11 said:
we never change to fit players talents.

we force players to do what our schemes dictate wether they can or cant.

pretty much the biggest reasons why players we drafted rarely manage to make the next step.
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You dont switch to a 4 man front to build around a Timmy Jernigan, you do if you have a Geno Atkins though.
 
BloodRaven said:
You dont switch to a 4 man front to build around a Timmy Jernigan, you do if you have a Geno Atkins though.
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if you can see the future and thus know what that player will be able to do then sure.

if you cant and just drafted someone in round 4 then i doubt it will happen....
 
Willbacker said:
I really don't see why we cant switch to a 4-3 with all the talent we got on the dline where Pierce can play the 1 and Williams the 3 or vice versa with shifts and rotate Davis and Ricard in and just leave Correa off the field and let Onwauser see the field in extra DB/LB situations where he lines up closer to the LOS
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The issue is in the following. I personally don't see neither Pierce nor Williams as natural pass rushers at 3T in a one-gap scheme. Both are arguably better fits at the one in a four-man front. We are also having significant issues at ILB opposite of C.J. Mosely, which would be magnified given that we'd be forced to field a SAM and WILL in base packages. Mosely in my eyes is capable of handling either both the MIKE or the WILL, but that leaves a sizable gap at whichever he doesn't fill. In short, a switch to the 4-3 under our current roster could very well leave deficiencies among some of the most important positions in a successful 4-3 base, at least in my opinion. In either case, I don't see the switch being favorable over the 3-4 as it stands.
 
Tru11 said:
if you can see the future and thus know what that player will be able to do then sure.

if you cant and just drafted someone in round 4 then i doubt it will happen....
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It only took him a year to make the Pro Bowl, the point is we havent changed because we havent found a guy like that. Ngata was a perfect fit and we never had to change to build around him
 
Truth said:
The issue is in the following. I personally don't see neither Pierce nor Williams as natural pass rushers at 3T in a one-gap scheme. Both are arguably better fits at the one in a four-man front. We are also having significant issues at ILB opposite of C.J. Mosely, which would be magnified given that we'd be forced to field a SAM and WILL in base packages. Mosely in my eyes is capable of handling either both the MIKE or the WILL, but that leaves a sizable gap at whichever he doesn't fill. In short, a switch to the 4-3 under our current roster could very well leave deficiencies among some of the most important positions in a successful 4-3 base, at least in my opinion. In either case, I don't see the switch being favorable over the 3-4 as it stands.
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Well, it's adjustments we could make in an offseason. I believe Peanut can be a fine WILL, and with a full offseason we could add the correct personnel with a new DC. Judon can also be an interesting solution as a SAM given how he is playing more and more in space this season. And of course Bowser could be better suited as either (I don't really know the nuances between the WLB in a 3-4, the WILL in a 4-3 and the SAM in a 4-3).
 
BloodRaven said:
It only took him a year to make the Pro Bowl, the point is we havent changed because we havent found a guy like that. Ngata was a perfect fit and we never had to change to build around him
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you have no point lol.

bengals have been running the 4-3 since 2000.

they did not change their scheme when they drafted atkins in round 4 nor did they decided to change their scheme because he made the pro bowl.

you decide on your scheme before the season begins and then go into FA and the draft to find players that suit that scheme.
you sure as hell wont change your scheme afterwards cause 1 guy made the pro bowl.
tbh if a player made the pro bowl already , why would you even consider a scheme change in the first place.
makes little sense.....


PS : ngata could play either scheme.
would not matter what we ran cause he was that good.
 
Lost_In_Translation said:
Disagree. Given Bowser’s abilities in coverage and Mosley’s brains we’d make it work. We need one more but still. We’d be fine.
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you need 3 lbers who can cover for the 4-3 and you need depth behind them as well.

bowser has athletic ability.
not so much coverage ability at this point.

onwuasor is a lesser version of bowser.

mosley got some coverage skills but nothing spectacular.

no depth whatsoever behind these 3.

that is not even considering all the differences in assignments , responsibilities , techniques and so on that pretty much the whole defense needs to learn....

we will be far from fine tbh.
 
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