The General Front 7 Thread

[Truth]

I argued one point, that if we had drafted someone like Atkins we would have changed to a 4-3 to accommodate his talent.

At the very least, the smartest move would've involved some alteration in principles to accommodate the skill-set. Had Atkins been forced to start at either end spot in the 3-4, he may have been somewhat stunted in a two-gapping role. He would've been better off employed in the same role as Cameron Jordan, hunting after QBs as the jackknife in Rob Ryan's 3-4 in 2013 or a la J.J. Watt being able to penetrate without hesitation in Wade Phillips' one-gapping 3-4 from the onset. I would then expect personnel changes to follow in the upcoming seasons, i.e. Denver drafting Derek Wolfe in the 2nd round one year after Von Miller to utilize him as a Red Bryant-esk run-stopping 5T to free up Miller, and also drafting Danny Trevathan in that same year to potentially taker over at the WILL in the future given the importance of the position in the 4-3 Under.

 

[Truth]

Well, it's adjustments we could make in an offseason. I believe Peanut can be a fine WILL, and with a full offseason we could add the correct personnel with a new DC. Judon can also be an interesting solution as a SAM given how he is playing more and more in space this season. And of course Bowser could be better suited as either (I don't really know the nuances between the WLB in a 3-4, the WILL in a 4-3 and the SAM in a 4-3).

See, I'm not quite as confident with Onwuasor. The athleticism is there for the position, which isn't overly surprising given that he's a converted SS. My main concerns are with his ability to read the keys. He's been hesitant to shoot upfield on the low-hat read, which had lead to struggles in the running game. He's also had issues with containment on cutback plays, and those two aspects are among the most important for a successful WLB. I feel that he hasn't trusted his instincts enough. I'm personally still stewing about the fact that he bumped Maurice Canady off of Eric Decker on their final TD, but otherwise, he's mostly held in coverage. It's a tough read overall since there are potential pros and cons, but his floor is worrisome in my eyes. Bowser would be better suited as a 4-3 SLB in my eyes given his ability to come off the edge and cover. It's difficult to count on him as a certainty, but the skill-set certainly meshes. The differences between the WLB and SLB partially depend on the subset of the base, but they are typically fairly significant.

 

[BloodRaven]

At the very least, the smartest move would've involved some alteration in principles to accommodate the skill-set. Had Atkins been forced to start at either end spot in the 3-4, he may have been somewhat stunted in a two-gapping role. He would've been better off employed in the same role as Cameron Jordan, hunting after QBs as the jackknife in Rob Ryan's 3-4 in 2013 or a la J.J. Watt being able to penetrate without hesitation in Wade Phillips' one-gapping 3-4 from the onset. I would then expect personnel changes to follow in the upcoming seasons, i.e. Denver drafting Derek Wolfe in the 2nd round one year after Von Miller to utilize him as a Red Bryant-esk run-stopping 5T to free up Miller, and also drafting Danny Trevathan in that same year to potentially taker over at the WILL in the future given the importance of the position in the 4-3 Under.

I think you're right, looking back if we had drafted Atkins and he had forced his way into the starting lineup by 2011 it's hard to see where he would have fit in, at the time the only linemen who were starting quality would have been Ngata and Redding. Wade Phillips system works perfect with Suggs/Kruger/McPhee outside of Redding, Ngata and Atkins but our backups would not fit, the other systems might work but Redding and Atkins are both single gap linemen.

 

[Jacquouille]

See, I'm not quite as confident with Onwuasor. The athleticism is there for the position, which isn't overly surprising given that he's a converted SS. My main concerns are with his ability to read the keys. He's been hesitant to shoot upfield on the low-hat read, which had lead to struggles in the running game. He's also had issues with containment on cutback plays, and those two aspects are among the most important for a successful WLB. I feel that he hasn't trusted his instincts enough. I'm personally still stewing about the fact that he bumped Maurice Canady off of Eric Decker on their final TD, but otherwise, he's mostly held in coverage. It's a tough read overall since there are potential pros and cons, but his floor is worrisome in my eyes. Bowser would be better suited as a 4-3 SLB in my eyes given his ability to come off the edge and cover. It's difficult to count on him as a certainty, but the skill-set certainly meshes. The differences between the WLB and SLB partially depend on the subset of the base, but they are typically fairly significant.

It's important to realize Onwuasor is just in his second year. He is a below average starter at this point, we all agree on that, but Orr was still a ST ace at this point in his own career. To be a starter in his second year as a UDFA is pretty promising, even if it's by default. He's made some bad mistakes and has been responsible for some poor run defense, but he has also flashed and is a proven play maker. One way or another I see us drafting a new LB in a very, very dense 2018 class, which would leave us in a position to adapt our LB core with Mosley and the others. With a good understanding between Oz and the new DC (if we're to switch to 4-3 it has to be a new DC) we can easily build an effective trio in one offseason.

 

[rossihunter2]

the jags game where he got beat by mercedes lewis a few times i think is what made them hold bowser back.

he played a few snaps against the bengals and then had a lot of snaps against the browns but after he struggled early against lewis and gave up a TD, they pretty much limited him.

dont agree with that at all as he is more versatile then any other OLB.

williams i have no clue why they dont play him.
my guess is that he probably struggles with run defense and could be exposed on draw plays or when they decide to run at him.
just guessing on that though.

What’s worse with Timmy is he’s shown obvious improvement in defending draw plays - in his last snaps one of his better plays was staying at home, squeezing down the LoS and forcing the qb to hand it off straight up the middle

But we never get to see Timmy on obvious passing downs either - I haven’t seen him rotated in for 3rd and long once this year

And with bowser I don’t understand how he’s in the doghouse given the crap that ZDS has gotten away with in terms of silly penalties (even if they were questionable) - yes Mosley was very visibly pissed off at bowser in the jags game but that was 6 weeks ago... why’s he still in the doghouse when we are getting no edge pressure - Alex Collins got out of the doghouse within one game because he learned his lesson and we had very little else in the run game

Well I’ve seen enough to think the pass rush is similarly ineffective without the rookies... Suggs has been fine if unspectacular and Judon has been very good in spots but inconsistent and ZDS has been much less effective than we expected after his dominant preseason and play against the bengals interior

And I don’t get what the problem is with using rookies situationally - it’s not like a different coaching staff was here when pernell McPhee was around and he was a rush specialist - as was doom but we don’t seem to be willing to do it with the young guys

 

[Tru11]

What’s worse with Timmy is he’s shown obvious improvement in defending draw plays - in his last snaps one of his better plays was staying at home, squeezing down the LoS and forcing the qb to hand it off straight up the middle

But we never get to see Timmy on obvious passing downs either - I haven’t seen him rotated in for 3rd and long once this year

And with bowser I don’t understand how he’s in the doghouse given the crap that ZDS has gotten away with in terms of silly penalties (even if they were questionable) - yes Mosley was very visibly pissed off at bowser in the jags game but that was 6 weeks ago... why’s he still in the doghouse when we are getting no edge pressure - Alex Collins got out of the doghouse within one game because he learned his lesson and we had very little else in the run game

Well I’ve seen enough to think the pass rush is similarly ineffective without the rookies... Suggs has been fine if unspectacular and Judon has been very good in spots but inconsistent and ZDS has been much less effective than we expected after his dominant preseason and play against the bengals interior

And I don’t get what the problem is with using rookies situationally - it’s not like a different coaching staff was here when pernell McPhee was around and he was a rush specialist - as was doom but we don’t seem to be willing to do it with the young guys

if pees is coaching for his job i could guess on why he wants to takes less risk with rookies.

 

[Truth]

It's important to realize Onwuasor is just in his second year. He is a below average starter at this point, we all agree on that, but Orr was still a ST ace at this point in his own career. To be a starter in his second year as a UDFA is pretty promising, even if it's by default. He's made some bad mistakes and has been responsible for some poor run defense, but he has also flashed and is a proven play maker. One way or another I see us drafting a new LB in a very, very dense 2018 class, which would leave us in a position to adapt our LB core with Mosley and the others. With a good understanding between Oz and the new DC (if we're to switch to 4-3 it has to be a new DC) we can easily build an effective trio in one offseason.

Those are fair points. He's definitely made some highlight plays, though I personally wouldn't quantify him as a proven playmaker. The big plays have been significant. He had the PD that led to an INT by Brandon Carr. His FF on Jared Cook was returned for a TD. He had a terrific stop on Jerrick McKinnon on the screen and a rock solid TFL on James Conner for a 2 yard loss while in backside pursuit. He was technically awarded a sack for falling on DeShone Kizer half a yard prior to the LOS when Kizer scrambled after being pressured by Michael Pierce. Unfortunately, that's been it in those categories. The PD, FF and sack were his only of the season, with 2 additional TLs. He's obviously capable of creating splash plays here and there. But I feel as if more impact plays are needed for a player to be classified as a proven playmaker in over half a season. Then again, we all have our own barometers for each definition so it's a subjective opinion on my end. I do feel like a switch to the 4-3 is possible with added pieces, but I'm uncertain as whom it would help. It's arguably a poorer fit for the current defensive line. We'd feel compelled to add at least one more potentially starting-caliber LB. With Timmy Jernigan gone, I don't see a notable player within our front seven who's currently struggling to fit an odd front but would be projected to improve in an even one.

 

[Dom McRaven]

This feels like Willie Henry all over again

Speaking of which, did he even play yesterday because I don't remember seeing him (could be wrong).

harbs is part of the problem tbh.

he will fire those 2 and bring in 2 of the same.

If Harbs goes, I truly believe it'll because of keeping Marty at the end of last season when it didn't make sense.

 

[Jacquouille]

Speaking of which, did he even play yesterday because I don't remember seeing him (could be wrong).

He did, but he's getting gassed up. Playing most snaps on DL every week.

 

[RavensMania]

Speaking of which, did he even play yesterday because I don't remember seeing him (could be wrong).


If Harbs goes, I truly believe it'll because of keeping Marty at the end of last season when it didn't make sense.

Harbaugh does not know how to hire coordinators and I’m. Harbaugh supporter.

 

[Dom McRaven]

He did, but he's getting gassed up. Playing most snaps on DL every week.

Sheesh. Well thankfully we have a bye week.

Harbaugh does not know how to hire coordinators and I’m. Harbaugh supporter.

Well.....there was Kubiak (he ain't coming back).

 

[rossihunter2]

Speaking of which, did he even play yesterday because I don't remember seeing him (could be wrong).


If Harbs goes, I truly believe it'll because of keeping Marty at the end of last season when it didn't make sense.

I saw Willie Henry on the field early on but he was playing a lot of running downs and was playing with pierce and Williams - they may be our best 3 dlineman but I’m not sure I like the combination of all 3 on the field together often - I’d almost be tempted to have Henry and pierce spell each other with leaning towards pierce on more early downs and Henry more in obvious pass situations

 

[BloodRaven]

He did, but he's getting gassed up. Playing most snaps on DL every week.

Probably our quickest lineman but man does he gas quickly, same with Carl Davis but Davis has size. This is why I'm hoping we take a look at Vita Vea, dude has the best engine I've ever seen on a big NT. Never slows down

 

[rossihunter2]

Probably our quickest lineman but man does he gas quickly, same with Carl Davis but Davis has size. This is why I'm hoping we take a look at Vita Vea, dude has the best engine I've ever seen on a big NT. Never slows down

Part of it for me is that he’s out of position playing more of a hybrid 5 tech than his more natural 3tech where he looked great in Williams absence and vs the dolphins

 

[Dom McRaven]

I saw Willie Henry on the field early on but he was playing a lot of running downs and was playing with pierce and Williams - they may be our best 3 dlineman but I’m not sure I like the combination of all 3 on the field together often - I’d almost be tempted to have Henry and pierce spell each other with leaning towards pierce on more early downs and Henry more in obvious pass situations

I wouldn't mind that option, but personally, I'd rather have Henry and Williams spell each other. Have Williams on running downs and Henry on passing downs.

 

[rossihunter2]

I wouldn't mind that option, but personally, I'd rather have Henry and Williams spell each other. Have Williams on running downs and Henry on passing downs.

Williams has arguably been our best pass rushing dlineman this year - pierce has been the one who has been less effective this year - vs the dolphins pierces snaps dropped because they would replace him with Henry on passing downs and it worked well - pierce looked much improved in the run game for being fresher too

Now if we are down to 1 down lineman on passing downs (e.g. if we are in the dime with an extra linebacker rushing the middle) then I’d advocate more Henry in that role because he’s faster but when it’s two I’d rather Williams stay on the field than pierce if we drop one

 

[Jacquouille]

Probably our quickest lineman but man does he gas quickly, same with Carl Davis but Davis has size. This is why I'm hoping we take a look at Vita Vea, dude has the best engine I've ever seen on a big NT. Never slows down

Every DLineman will gas very quickly when they're playing 50 snaps a game every week. Against Tenessee it looks as though with Pierce being unavailable Hnery played nearly every snap without any rest. When will this guy be properly used is the question.

 

[Dom McRaven]

Williams has arguably been our best pass rushing dlineman this year - pierce has been the one who has been less effective this year - vs the dolphins pierces snaps dropped because they would replace him with Henry on passing downs and it worked well - pierce looked much improved in the run game for being fresher too

Now if we are down to 1 down lineman on passing downs (e.g. if we are in the dime with an extra linebacker rushing the middle) then I’d advocate more Henry in that role because he’s faster but when it’s two I’d rather Williams stay on the field than pierce if we drop one

Damn.....I stand corrected.

 

[rossihunter2]

Damn.....I stand corrected.

i dont think you're wrong that we could do with more rotation in general but i dont know why they changed up the rotation for the titans after the snap counts vs the dolphins turned that line into a run stuffing beast with the ability to get pressure up the middle - now obviously the titans are a better oline but their weak(er) elements on their line were up the middle so i dont know why we couldnt continue with the method that seemed to work

 

[Dom McRaven]

i dont think you're wrong that we could do with more rotation in general but i dont know why they changed up the rotation for the titans after the snap counts vs the dolphins turned that line into a run stuffing beast with the ability to get pressure up the middle - now obviously the titans are a better oline but their weak(er) elements on their line were up the middle so i dont know why we couldnt continue with the method that seemed to work

I don't get it either. In fact, I gave up wondering why this coaching staff won't continue to do stuff that worked. I know this thread is about the front-7, but I remembered that our offense utilized more of an up-tempo pace and lo and behold, we scored a TD because we capitalized on their "too many men on the field" penalty. I didn't see it as much. And you would think it'd be nice to use on the road before the crowd really starts to get loud.