Knowing how to win... Or, at the very least, knowing how NOT to lose.

[rmcjacket23]

So I have two questions, and they are somewhat legitimate questions:
1. Why do people think sloppy penalties and turnovers are functions of coaching? Am I the only one who thinks that's why we lost yesterday? Like I've literally never heard anybody defend that opinion or have any basis for it whatsoever.

I understand if the thought is that a team that ROUTINELY has these issues, week in and week out, then maybe its coaching. That's not what I've seen from the Ravens this year. Penalties and sloppy turnovers haven't been our thing in the first five weeks.

I can guarantee you everybody this... if you attended every Ravens practice, one thing you would NEVER see is coaches teaching players how to line up illegally. Or coaches teaching players how to not snap the ball correctly. Or coaches teaching players how to take helmets off of opponents and swing them mildly in the air like a neanderthal.

2. I'll entertain coaching changes... in the offseason. The whole firing the HC or even coordinators mid-season bullshit rarely yields any positives at all. Plus every single person here knows this team isn't anywhere close to bad enough to warrant Harbaugh getting the ax.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I'll shockingly back Sizzle for one thing... this idea that you can't fire a coach because you can't name a replacement who is better is really, really, really bad analysis. Like really bad.
If a marriage is bad, you exit the marriage. You don't wait until you find somebody else to love you before you do it. You just do it.

BUT... this marriage isn't bad. It's not divorce-worthy in my eyes. It's just not working as well as it probably should right now. It's a roster with a good amount of holes, and a coaching staff that needs to do better, and for fuck's sake, a player pool that certainly needs to play better (and a shit load smarter than what I saw yesterday). And if that doesn't happen, coaches ain't going to be the only guys getting pink slips. Life only gets harder when Lamar makes more money...

Since evidently I'm the "optimist" around here... we are 3-3. Stuck smack dab in the middle of a shit ton of mediocrity in this league. The Giants aren't better than us. Neither are the Dolphins. Look at our division. Look at some of the games played yesterday. There's nothing special going on in this league right now. Nothing. Buffalo and Philly are the two best teams I've seen, and we were beating Buffalo for like 3 quarters.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

Who would you propose would be the new coach if Harbaugh were fired?

I don't know, but Harbs was a good pick at the time. I'm pretty confident in the front office finding someone, tho. There are Sean McVays and others that finally get their chance all over the place. I trust the FO, but if you are going to sign a franchise QB for unprecedented money, they can't keep on the same path. People don't seem to take Sean Payton seriously and I don't know if he would be appropriate here, but he is a bona-fide OC/HC unlike or, perhaps, of a different caliber than Greg Roman. All I'm saying is that the excuses for these kinds of losses continue to be the same going back many years now. "We need to execute better." "The coaching staff is working really hard to correct this..." It's just tiresome. Sometimes, even oftentimes, a change is just what's needed.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

It’s not a smartass comment dude, you take this proposed question as an attack and get combative the second you see it, you do it every time.

Harbaugh was on nobody’s radar in 2008, 4 head coaches were hired in 2008 and harbaugh was the only long term success, two of them failed miserably within 2 seasons and mike smith had some successful seasons in Atlanta, and that’s it. Every year you see a handful of coach hirings and a vast majority of them are miserable failures, you might get one long term quality head coach every few years, out of a handful of hirings every year.

If you want to fire a head coach of John harbaughs stature, your replacement plan shouldn’t be just hoping you luck out with an extremely low percentage move, just because you lucked out the last time you did it. Probably better off with the guy you lucked out with to begin with.

So you're sort of making the point. I don't know who the Ravens might have on their radar as replacement candidates for coaches. But I trust that they scout them in a similar way to draftees and players. I loved the Harbaugh hire. I just think the time is nearing where if you are going to commit to a franchise player like Lamar that there needs to be an approach that caters to him on OFF. And I think an OFF minded HC is the way to go. The guy is out there someplace.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

So I have two questions, and they are somewhat legitimate questions:
1. Why do people think sloppy penalties and turnovers are functions of coaching? Am I the only one who thinks that's why we lost yesterday? Like I've literally never heard anybody defend that opinion or have any basis for it whatsoever.

I understand if the thought is that a team that ROUTINELY has these issues, week in and week out, then maybe its coaching. That's not what I've seen from the Ravens this year. Penalties and sloppy turnovers haven't been our thing in the first five weeks.

I can guarantee you everybody this... if you attended every Ravens practice, one thing you would NEVER see is coaches teaching players how to line up illegally. Or coaches teaching players how to not snap the ball correctly. Or coaches teaching players how to take helmets off of opponents and swing them mildly in the air like a neanderthal.

2. I'll entertain coaching changes... in the offseason. The whole firing the HC or even coordinators mid-season bullshit rarely yields any positives at all. Plus every single person here knows this team isn't anywhere close to bad enough to warrant Harbaugh getting the ax.

I'm not saying the change should be made in season, but it shouldn't be off the table and nor should a real candid look at the staff when the season ends.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

I appreciate your effort, but this thread is a reminder to not feed the trolls.

He has no intention of engaging the discussion at hand- he only seeks to stir the pot.

This comment is completely inappropriate from a moderator. Frankly, your response was more an example of trolling than my OP. I'm not an expert on who might be on the radar for HC jobs in the NFL, but I'm sure the team is aware of many potential replacements - just as they found Harbs in their last search.

But the smugness with which you respond to a legitimate thread and opinion held by many on this forum is simply shocking to me especially from a Moderator. I appreciate some of your other responses in the thread and I "liked" them. But as somebody that is here for fun and having some discussion, I can do without the condescending "know-it-all-ish" responses from some posters, particularly Mods.

 

[RavensMania]

See, what did I say, folks? Always a veiled response and question. They have no clue what to say themselves when it's brought up that Harbaugh himself was on nobody's radar at the time of his hiring.

5 weeks ago you said we should fire Harbaugh and make Macdonald the coach. Glad you aren't running the team.

Harbaugh is going nowhere

 

[RavensMania]

And here we go…. I’m a troll for voicing the opinion of the majority, blah blah blah. Seriously.

you have voiced an opinion without an answer and you have been asked directly and can't respond.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I'm not saying the change should be made in season, but it shouldn't be off the table and nor should a real candid look at the staff when the season ends.

OK. Lets be serious for a second though... what record do you think the Ravens need in order to fire Harbaugh? A realistic one. Like I don't think you can come up with a scenario where this team makes the playoffs (which it very much looks like it's got a great shot to at the moment) and they fire John. There's just no universe where that's going to happen in my eyes. This team probably needs to win 7-8 games, max, and miss the playoffs entirely, for that discussion to even take place at any level in the organization. AND I think it'll just be a discussion about expectations for 2023 and the proverbial "hot seat" in those situations.
Even sitting at 3-3, in my opinion, this team is WAY too good to finish with 7 or 8 wins. It's going to take something catastrophic for that to happen, i.e. long term injury to Lamar or a wave of injuries rivaled by last season. In which case, all the cover a HC needs will be available to him.

In terms of staff changes, I would imagine some are on the table. But then again MacDonald, who's heading what I think is easily the weaker of the two units (though they're improving, while the offense is not) is a first year DC here. So I have a hard time believing he's on the hot seat.
That just leaves Roman. Maybe there's a change there.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

OK. Lets be serious for a second though... what record do you think the Ravens need in order to fire Harbaugh? A realistic one. Like I don't think you can come up with a scenario where this team makes the playoffs (which it very much looks like it's got a great shot to at the moment) and they fire John. There's just no universe where that's going to happen in my eyes. This team probably needs to win 7-8 games, max, and miss the playoffs entirely, for that discussion to even take place at any level in the organization. AND I think it'll just be a discussion about expectations for 2023 and the proverbial "hot seat" in those situations.
Even sitting at 3-3, in my opinion, this team is WAY too good to finish with 7 or 8 wins. It's going to take something catastrophic for that to happen, i.e. long term injury to Lamar or a wave of injuries rivaled by last season. In which case, all the cover a HC needs will be available to him.

In terms of staff changes, I would imagine some are on the table. But then again MacDonald, who's heading what I think is easily the weaker of the two units (though they're improving, while the offense is not) is a first year DC here. So I have a hard time believing he's on the hot seat.
That just leaves Roman. Maybe there's a change there.

I agree with everything you've said here. I think it's unlikely it happens. Far more likely is Roman being out at some point. But I would say that missing the Playoffs, regardless of record, would likely put John on the hotseat too; and rightfully so, I think.

I think you're correct that in almost any scenario, Roman would be the first to go. But there needs to be a team decision on what OFF minded HC-type should replace Roman. Harbs should not have a say in that decision.

 

[Mainejet]

So this loss boils down to coaching. It's what some of us have been questioning about our team's success for some time. But it is a non-starter among others. (You might blame it on Lamar today, but heaven forbid...Lamar has been great on throwing it away in the recent past, so he hears the coaches...I'll leave it there.)

I will go back to the transition from Joe Flacco to Lamar. I had no problem with the switch. It had to happen and it was the right thing to do. But let's be honest, if Harbs hadn't made the change he likely would have been out. So for self preservation or because he knew it was the right thing to do, he did it.

Lamar excels. THAT bails Harbs and the rest of the coaching staff out. Was that coaching or Lamar? I say Lamar. The coaching benefited from Lamar's performance. On both sides of the ball, btw. In 2018 and 2019 the TOP - something discussed, maybe not extensively, but recognized - was enormously in our favor. Who benefited? The HC, OFF Coordinator, the DEF Coordinator- to a lesser extent, and Lamar.

Lamar - Playoffs - that's a huge question mark, despite those of us wanting to believe in him and apologists - who, shockingly, want to blame coaching or lack of organizational talent for (his) gaffs in losses.

Personally, I'm sick of giving Lamar passes. I'm sick of giving REF's the credit for us winning or losing. And I'm sick of not having a real discussion on how changing an old coaching staff might benefit us. It's almost like we're just willing to accept that the devil we know is better than the devil we don't argument.

We are a great franchise that is well owned and managed. I'm sick of being close. I know players make errors, but coaches are there to teach and help to make improvements. I don't see that happening under the current coaching staff from the top down. It's the same sloppiness over many years.

Feel free to desagree. I know many of you will. But if we are going to make a franchise decision and pay a guy historic money, I want a coaching staff that is built around that guy. None of these guys are worthy.

This team can't hold out to win or hold out NOT to lose. That's poor coaching.

Well, first of all just full information I don't watch the Ravens the way you guys do. I don't pretend to know as much as Ravens nation fans do. However, I am a bit of an admiring fan of the Ravens from a distance. I've ALWAYS believed, since about 2002, that the Ravens are one of the very best run organizations in football. They have an excellent front office that keeps this roster backfilled with talent. They have an excellent roster that is as talented as the best teams in the NFL today. And YES, I very much believe John Harbaugh is one of the best head coaches in football.

What I saw in the Giants game was a Ravens QB that did stupid things with the football. I don't know what else to say? The Ravens had that game in the bag if not for late game dingbat moments from Lamar Jackson. Throw in the fact that there's something to be said for opposing defenses learning hot to defend LJ and the Ravens offense. Throw in to the fire that LAMAR JACKSON 's numbers simply aren't that eye popping. His QB rating is way down and his Touchdowns to interceptions ratio is also way down.

So if you're asking for an outsiders opinion, and I'm pretty sure you're not LOL, I'm telling you maybe just MAYBE Lamar Jackson experienced some early success and now that opposing defenses have sealed off LJ's ability to run the football that its time for LJ to earn it as a pocket QB?

 

[rmcjacket23]

I agree with everything you've said here. I think it's unlikely it happens. Far more likely is Roman being out at some point. But I would say that missing the Playoffs, regardless of record, would likely put John on the hotseat too; and rightfully so, I think.

I think you're correct that in almost any scenario, Roman would be the first to go. But there needs to be a team decision on what OFF minded HC-type should replace Roman. Harbs should not have a say in that decision.

Who should have a say then? I'm not sure EDC is qualified to be in that role of deciding coordinator jobs. He's got his hands full trying to get a roster together, of which he deserves some of the blame for that anyway.

Last thing in the world I'd be doing is not allowing a HC insight into a coordinator hiring. If that's going to happen, you fire the HC immediately, no questions asked. That's just a disastrous way to run a franchise in my opinion, and I'd bet there's practically no success story that comes from that mindset.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

And here we go…. I’m a troll for voicing the opinion of the majority, blah blah blah. Seriously.

No, you're a troll because I even led you to a discussion point and... you refused and dodged because you offer nothing of value, ever.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

I'll shockingly back Sizzle for one thing... this idea that you can't fire a coach because you can't name a replacement who is better is really, really, really bad analysis. Like really bad.
If a marriage is bad, you exit the marriage. You don't wait until you find somebody else to love you before you do it. You just do it.

I should clarify that I'm not of the mindset that we should keep Harbaugh because what's out there *could* be worse. I'm very pro fire Roman and hate that as a rebuttal, too.

I just simply want to have a discussion instead of sitting in a circle jerking each other off and saying, "Fire Harbaugh!"

 

[29BmoreBird22]

I understand if the thought is that a team that ROUTINELY has these issues, week in and week out, then maybe its coaching. That's not what I've seen from the Ravens this year. Penalties and sloppy turnovers haven't been our thing in the first five weeks.

I actually saw a pretty sobering stat that the Ravens offense has had 15 drives in the fourth quarter that went to completion and six resulted in a turnover and one resulted in a turnover on down.

Couple with the defenses inability to clamp down and the maddening consistency with which they let turnovers fall through their fingers and I'd say the Ravens have a turnover problem in the fourth quarter.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I should clarify that I'm not of the mindset that we should keep Harbaugh because what's out there *could* be worse. I'm very pro fire Roman and hate that as a rebuttal, too.

I just simply want to have a discussion instead of sitting in a circle jerking each other off and saying, "Fire Harbaugh!"

That's fine. In my eyes, at this point, there is no discussion. This team isn't bad enough to fire Harbaugh. If people think we're settling for mediocrity, so be it. A lot of teams settle for mediocrity, and it pays dividends in the long run. Others settle for mediocrity and it eventually leads to heads rolling.

I frankly don't know why John is on the block but Eric isn't, either. Maybe people want an overhaul at both, but I can tell you this... there's no way I'm getting rid of the GM, HC and the coordinators, and then simultaneously handing out a big fat contract to Lamar. That has practically a 0% chance of success in this franchise model. If I'm overhauling leadership, I'm trading Lamar also and completely starting from scratch. Because if there's a big stench of mediocrity around town, you can smell it on players too.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

I don't know, but Harbs was a good pick at the time. I'm pretty confident in the front office finding someone, tho. There are Sean McVays and others that finally get their chance all over the place. I trust the FO, but if you are going to sign a franchise QB for unprecedented money, they can't keep on the same path. People don't seem to take Sean Payton seriously and I don't know if he would be appropriate here, but he is a bona-fide OC/HC unlike or, perhaps, of a different caliber than Greg Roman. All I'm saying is that the excuses for these kinds of losses continue to be the same going back many years now. "We need to execute better." "The coaching staff is working really hard to correct this..." It's just tiresome. Sometimes, even oftentimes, a change is just what's needed.

I don't think Payton is a fit because of the reasons I previously listed (would require trading picks, wants full control over personnel, wants warm weather), but I'll agree.

I very much want an offensive minded head coach. I'm really tired of mediocre offensive minds as coordinators and I want someone who can really help elevate Lamar to the next level.

I think Lamar has certainly shown growth as a passer, but he's always regressed. I want someone who will push him to the next level consistently.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I actually saw a pretty sobering stat that the Ravens offense has had 15 drives in the fourth quarter that went to completion and six resulted in a turnover and one resulted in a turnover on down.

Couple with the defenses inability to clamp down and the maddening consistency with which they let turnovers fall through their fingers and I'd say the Ravens have a turnover problem in the fourth quarter.

And, to be clear, nothing I suggested is what I'd advocate. The solution is everybody needs to do their fucking job better. That's the solution. Players, coaches, and even fans need to do better.

Again, I don't think the sky is falling, because I'm watching other games every week. It's a shit storm of mediocrity in this league right now. Maybe I've been numb to it in the past, but I don't recall seeing a league with this much parity at this point. There's nobody that's great. There's no team in this league that I'd be like "yeah, I don't think we can beat them".

 

[29BmoreBird22]

This comment is completely inappropriate from a moderator. Frankly, your response was more an example of trolling than my OP. I'm not an expert on who might be on the radar for HC jobs in the NFL, but I'm sure the team is aware of many potential replacements - just as they found Harbs in their last search.

But the smugness with which you respond to a legitimate thread and opinion held by many on this forum is simply shocking to me especially from a Moderator. I appreciate some of your other responses in the thread and I "liked" them. But as somebody that is here for fun and having some discussion, I can do without the condescending "know-it-all-ish" responses from some posters, particularly Mods.

Yeah, I'm gonna disagree with you here and say I'm sorry you feel the way you do.

I asked a question. I genuinely wanted to take your OP a step further.

Okay, we fire Harbaugh (something I could be behind/generally lean toward myself)- what next? Who's your dream coach? Who would you like to see coach the Ravens?

Sizzle's responses weren't meant to actually have a discussion- they were meant to just rile people up.

I'm sorry if you think my original question was smug, but it's a legitimate discussion point and the fact that people view it as combative is a them issue, not a me issue.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

And, to be clear, nothing I suggested is what I'd advocate. The solution is everybody needs to do their fucking job better. That's the solution. Players, coaches, and even fans need to do better.

Again, I don't think the sky is falling, because I'm watching other games every week. It's a shit storm of mediocrity in this league right now. Maybe I've been numb to it in the past, but I don't recall seeing a league with this much parity at this point. There's nobody that's great. There's no team in this league that I'd be like "yeah, I don't think we can beat them".

I'd agree. I'm in the same boat as you, although, I think the Eagles are a pretty stacked team.

I don't think making moves in season makes much sense and I'd rather see the season play out as the Ravens move into a more cupcake portion of their schedule. I would like the entire season to work with instead of freaking out after every loss.