The Offensive Line Thread

[29BmoreBird22]

My point is more that I don't like their grades and find it difficult to generally assign grades when you can't even say with 100% confidence what the assignments were. If we were to look at BR, Filmstudy, and PFF, there's a pretty good chance we end up with three different rankings and grades. It just goes to show the absolute subjective nature of grading.

 

[TheCity5]

Experience can certainly be of help. That said, the general implication makes it sounds as if personal experience is almost a necessity to understand the inner workings of the OL. It's undoubtedly intricate and complex. That being said, we are currently flooded with information. There's game footage available on display, in-depth breakdowns from current NFL analysts and knowledgeable blog writers, as well as training videos from coaches and former players. Among the sources, I can hop online, put on the Eagles Anatomy of A Play series, and find out exactly how the inside zone cutback or the wham plays are intended to be executed. Learning everything from scratch is a significantly lengthy process as it requires understanding the principles of each position, the methods of execution, and then being able to digest the schematic differences. Nevertheless, it's more than plausible to do so without actual in-game experience. I'll use a personal example of the preseason game against the Dolphins. I wrote up a lengthy breakdown of each play involving Austin Howard that I shared via PM to a few members. It was a shaky overall performance, but I noted specific plays that I felt were encouraging enough from an athletic standpoint for Howard to remain at tackle. The most notable play was wherein he begun on the strong-side facing a wide-nine LE in Terrence Fede. Despite having Nick Boyle between him and Fede, Howard was able to successfully enter his vertical set, take three evenly-spaced slides with his hips squared while keeping his outside leg at the Fede's midsection, which forced the outside and inside lanes away, drop the anchor and shoot his arms at Fede's chest. For a man his size with somewhat heavy feet, it was about as textbook as it could've been expected. There was also a play earlier in the game wherein Cameron Wake attempted to set up the spin move with the initial rip, and instead of leaning into Wake and allowing Wake to sink his weight, swing his arm and clear through, Howard defeated it with a punch-and-reset. After dissecting both the running and passing plays, my opinion of Howard was that he possessed the athletic capacity to remain at OT. Mind you, I was going against the grain of the general consensus with an opinion about a position I've never played. Yet I was able to draw up a detailed assessment, an arguably accurate one, in large part because I had multiple tools at my disposal to further my knowledge and that I took the time to do so. And those in my eyes are the common denominators, time and ability. I'm not special. I've seen spot on in-depth assessments members on this forum who played little-to-none organized football, and I'm nowhere near where I hope to be knowledge wise regarding any position group. But if we're knocking PFF for its supposed inability to decipher plays due to lack of personal experience, which is significantly flawed in its own right considering that they've been hiring their number crunchers from regions including the United States for at least the last half-decade, including those who've played the sport, then I take umbrage with what it implies about us. If we're devaluing and/or discrediting the assessments of those who haven't played the sport, by that logic, it'd be acceptable to second guess the opinions of those of us who are in the same category by the mere virtue of that category. I for one can tell you from experience that I didn't possess a fraction of the knowledge I have now during my years as a DB, including knowledge of that same position group. And on a side note, with respect to the speed of their grading, from what I understand, they publish the first draft and then run through it a handful of times afterwards during the week. It's why each breakdown page states that their grades are subject to change upon review. Their initial drafts are done via the live footage while it's being recorded and the grades are then combed through via the All-22 whenever it becomes available. They're definitely not the Bible and their grades are subjective. That said, their effort level and expectations are hefty. For example, their information of the exact position each player played and what their general role was on each snap is essentially concrete. It's enforced with somewhat complex rules, and that aspect was measured as 99.98% accurate by NFL teams in 2013. Their entrance exams consist of multiple aforementioned player participation charts intended to be done off of live footage angles, and they're brutal given that accuracy wise, participants are allowed roughly 4 personnel errors and 15 action errors from what's likely to be over 1,000 data entries. Just throwing out some details for clarification.

I've played DB/WR during my time playing Football and I can tell you that there's still things that I'm learning about the game even today. I never really got to learn a whole lot about the intricacies of the offensive line but I know plenty about the stances and alignments of a DL because I was told to pass rush time to time. I also know plenty of the wide receiver position because I played a bit of WR, but even at that there's still a lot to learn for anyone.

My problem with PFF is as BMoreBird says I don't think their grades can ever be truly 100% or 95% legit because on many plays how do you know the blocking schemes and assignments as the game is going on? In terms of their grades being changed upon reflection I just have not seen a whole lot of this. I remember when Aaron Rodgers earned an average grade -0.8 grade( Old grading system) off a 333yard, 5 TD performance. Outrage ensued and upon reflection, they kept this same grade for vague reasons. The reasons were for a fumble, three great plays by Cobb which most of the credit was given to the receiver for great plays yet more often than not a receiver will make a great play on the ball, and a pass that could've been picked off and taken the other way( Which happens plenty of time). These reasons were not legitimate enough for the grade yet they stuck with it and that was that. PFF grades are subject to change but how often are they? I'm not sure but I can recall that their grading system use to be much more reliable as their grades would not release until the next day so maybe the cut back on time in reviewing film might contribute to their criticism on their grading system.

That said, I think it's very important to know the scheme and blocking assignments when evaluating a player regardless of time. EXP: In a blitz it's the QBs and C's job to identify a blitz and who's attacking the edge. If the QB/C fail to identify the blitz, and the LT loses contain on the edge, PFF sometimes is known to give that negative grade to the LT even though that wasn't even his assignment. What if on a typical gap assignments where the T is supposed to chip the DE then pull the LB with assistance from the TE to contain a block on a DE, the T chips the DE, and blocks the Weakside LB. The T did his job but in this play the TE loses contain very quickly and the run play is blown up by the DE. In the eye test it might look like linemen fail to do their job but in this play, the TE couldn't block a house fly. In our case last year, we criticize the OL a ton because we couldn't run the ball but a problem for us is that we didn't have a reliable blocking TE who could contain his blocks. A player like Jimmy Graham can't stay on the field because as good of a pass catcher he is, he's a complete liability on the run. I think plenty of appraise should be given to Ben Watson and Nick Boyle for their blocking, and while PFF has given them that, this is where the eye test fails at to me because in everyone minds, it's just the OL blocking well when in actually it's the entire offense that's doing their job from the center to the receiver.

Today, Ive noticed that the Ravens have the #4 offensive line according to PFF, yet the only Raven on the offensive line in the top ten of Austin Howard and Ryan Jensen who grade at #5 and #7, I agree with these grades with Stanley at #12. That said, Hurst and Elamanour/Skura ranked in the bottom of their positions. I think where credit hasn't been given in this case is to Watson and Boyle who had a big hand in chipping and blocking Khalil Mack, the Ravens did not intend to leave Mack alone one on one against Stanley and Howard. I think they bring an element that they haven't had at TE with their blocking and it's helped in a big way. They have helped in immense ways in the run/pass game and while I think the Ravens offensive line bounced back in a big way, I cannot agree with a #4 ranking at all.


PFF to me relies heavily on the eye test which can be misleading at times because unless you get a replay at the play and are able to diagnose it quickly, you can't say conclusively what happened. They may subject their grades to change, but I don't often see them do that.

 

[Oldfaithful]

Paragraphs please
Last poster I expected this from

Just @ me as the first guy next time

 

[RavensMania]

You're making the assumption I didn't read it based on...?

Sorry, I only did that based on other long articles that you’ve said it’s too long. Although with that article you did come back and read it.

Anyway, my bad, glad you read it.

 

[Ellicottraven]

Supposedly according to Ken McCusack's film study, this O-line unit had the best grades he's ever graded for our O-line since he started grading since 2008. That sounds pretty remarkable when you think about it. A total rag tag band aid version of an O-line and the best in almost 10 yrs?? Something went terribly right in Oakland.

 

[RavensMania]

Supposedly according to Ken McCusack's film study, this O-line unit had the best grades he's ever graded for our O-line since he started grading since 2008. That sounds pretty remarkable when you think about it. A total rag tag band aid version of an O-line and the best in almost 10 yrs?? Something went terribly right in Oakland.

That’s tremendous.

 

[Dom McRaven]

Supposedly according to Ken McCusack's film study, this O-line unit had the best grades he's ever graded for our O-line since he started grading since 2008. That sounds pretty remarkable when you think about it. A total rag tag band aid version of an O-line and the best in almost 10 yrs?? Something went terribly right in Oakland.

Even better than our o-line in 2014? That's incredible for sure. Now we can hope for some consistency. We're gonna need it if this team wants to sniff the playoffs again.

 

[RavensMania]

@Filmstudy ’s grades published at RSR
http://russellstreetreport.com/2017...raphs-charts/2017-offensive-line-grades-game/

 

[purplepittabread88]

for a back up tackle having to start on the fly as a LG im not sure what you expect from him tbh.

I hate it when people disrespect by boy Hurst. Guy makes run plays happen and holds his own against most DTs. PFF is useful sometimes but it is still just numbers. Hurst is a good football player. Mind you he has played FOUR different positions for us, including 3 different positions in the last two months. He is a slightly below average starter, but who else is out there that is better? This guy is possibly one of the best 6th man in the league and I mean that. Can play every position but center (I bet he can do that also) isn't injury prone, and plays clean and quite. I really hope we get him for 3 more years.

 

[Deebo813]

Question.. what should we do in the draft as far as oline? If howard continues to impress im sure we ill
Keep him. Stanley, lock for LT. yanda, Rg lock. we also have lewis and nico, but do we give up on them and draft a lineman in the 1st if one is there?

 

[Ludy51]

@Filmstudy ’s grades published at RSR
http://russellstreetreport.com/2017...raphs-charts/2017-offensive-line-grades-game/

Cool. Can he get us all the other grades for our team against Chicago too?

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Sorry, I only did that based on other long articles that you’ve said it’s too long. Although with that article you did come back and read it.

Anyway, my bad, glad you read it.

I only joke with that to LiT because he's guilty of writing 100 100 sentence paragraphs. Dude writes novels.

But in any case, I agree you can read tons of articles and watch many videos and get the basics, but there is no substitute for playing and understanding schemes. So much chemistry goes into playing that it's difficult to just assign blame for every play.

If you look at the Pro Bowl, I want to say they cannot blitz and cannot use any other front than a 4 man, but the defensive line always has the advantage because the offensive lineman have no chemistry to understand what the man beside them will do if there's a stunt, loop, a pull, etc.

 

[BloodRaven]

@Filmstudy ’s grades published at RSR
http://russellstreetreport.com/2017...raphs-charts/2017-offensive-line-grades-game/

These grades seem to follow the same trend, could this just be a case of getting the ball out quicker?

 

[Jacquouille]

These grades seem to follow the same trend, could this just be a case of getting the ball out quicker?

I don't think we're getting the ball out quicker. Flacco would miss a ton of throws anyway. I think the real factor is the balance in the offense. Flacco is at his best operating from the play action and we've seen it this week. With a running game that continued to give us favorable situations, even without long runs, the OAK D had to respect the play action, and thus having to stay home before realizing it was going to be a pass. It made them react a second later on pass plays, allowing the entire play to developp, the OL to prepare better (and not face too much blitz or stunts) and of course Flacco to go through his progressions.

 

[Jacquouille]

Question.. what should we do in the draft as far as oline? If howard continues to impress im sure we ill
Keep him. Stanley, lock for LT. yanda, Rg lock. we also have lewis and nico, but do we give up on them and draft a lineman in the 1st if one is there?

Very good question. It's true the main factor that's making it difficult for our OL is just an absurd amount of injuries that no team could surpass. For my money though, the most important is to go BPA. You could argue LG and RT are the better options but I'd say versatility is the key given how many injuries we've had. Even at C we're thin. I'd go get a Billy Price who can play anywhere on the interior or a Braden Smith who can play OG or RT and I'd feel good about it.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

These grades seem to follow the same trend, could this just be a case of getting the ball out quicker?

I think I read somewhere that Joe got the ball out in like 2.68 on average.

 

[Sooky]

I don't think Flacco got the ball out any faster but he didn't feel nearly as much pressure which means he had more time to look for open targets before his internal clock felt like he had to check it down asap. It also helps the wide receivers did a pretty good job of getting enough separation. The Raiders secondary isn't the greatest though which scares me but I hope it is a confidence booster and becomes a trend.

 

[RavensMania]

Question.. what should we do in the draft as far as oline? If howard continues to impress im sure we ill
Keep him. Stanley, lock for LT. yanda, Rg lock. we also have lewis and nico, but do we give up on them and draft a lineman in the 1st if one is there?

We should draft a left guard and if possible, one that can move over into Yandas place when he retires. Although Alex Lewis is a good pass blocker he wasn’t good at run blocker. Sure he could be better in our power scheme, but it doesn’t hurt drafting another guard or even a right tackle. One of which could come from free agency. I believe Nelson could become our Yanda replacement in a few years. Don’t get me wrong, no one is going to be as good as Yanda, but a player with the chance to be one of the best in the league would be a very good replacement.

Then we resign Hurst and have increased two fold. First we have a better interior oline and we move Hurst to swing tackle and our depth improves. Hurst could even fill in at lg in a pinch.

 

[Oldfaithful]

I only joke with that to LiT because he's guilty of writing 100 100 sentence paragraphs. Dude writes novels.

Ur just JELOUS cuz I’m a New York Times best selling author

 

[RavensMania]

Ur just JELOUS cuz I’m a New York Times best selling author

That must be it