• Welcome to PurpleFlock! Be sure to sign up here so that you can chat with your fellow Ravens fans.

The Offensive Line Thread

Truth

Staff Member
Administrator
I've played DB/WR during my time playing Football and I can tell you that there's still things that I'm learning about the game even today. I never really got to learn a whole lot about the intricacies of the offensive line but I know plenty about the stances and alignments of a DL because I was told to pass rush time to time. I also know plenty of the wide receiver position because I played a bit of WR, but even at that there's still a lot to learn for anyone.

My problem with PFF is as BMoreBird says I don't think their grades can ever be truly 100% or 95% legit because on many plays how do you know the blocking schemes and assignments as the game is going on? In terms of their grades being changed upon reflection I just have not seen a whole lot of this. I remember when Aaron Rodgers earned an average grade -0.8 grade( Old grading system) off a 333yard, 5 TD performance. Outrage ensued and upon reflection, they kept this same grade for vague reasons. The reasons were for a fumble, three great plays by Cobb which most of the credit was given to the receiver for great plays yet more often than not a receiver will make a great play on the ball, and a pass that could've been picked off and taken the other way( Which happens plenty of time). These reasons were not legitimate enough for the grade yet they stuck with it and that was that. PFF grades are subject to change but how often are they? I'm not sure but I can recall that their grading system use to be much more reliable as their grades would not release until the next day so maybe the cut back on time in reviewing film might contribute to their criticism on their grading system.

That said, I think it's very important to know the scheme and blocking assignments when evaluating a player regardless of time. EXP: In a blitz it's the QBs and C's job to identify a blitz and who's attacking the edge. If the QB/C fail to identify the blitz, and the LT loses contain on the edge, PFF sometimes is known to give that negative grade to the LT even though that wasn't even his assignment. What if on a typical gap assignments where the T is supposed to chip the DE then pull the LB with assistance from the TE to contain a block on a DE, the T chips the DE, and blocks the Weakside LB. The T did his job but in this play the TE loses contain very quickly and the run play is blown up by the DE. In the eye test it might look like linemen fail to do their job but in this play, the TE couldn't block a house fly. In our case last year, we criticize the OL a ton because we couldn't run the ball but a problem for us is that we didn't have a reliable blocking TE who could contain his blocks. A player like Jimmy Graham can't stay on the field because as good of a pass catcher he is, he's a complete liability on the run. I think plenty of appraise should be given to Ben Watson and Nick Boyle for their blocking, and while PFF has given them that, this is where the eye test fails at to me because in everyone minds, it's just the OL blocking well when in actually it's the entire offense that's doing their job from the center to the receiver.

Today, Ive noticed that the Ravens have the #4 offensive line according to PFF, yet the only Raven on the offensive line in the top ten of Austin Howard and Ryan Jensen who grade at #5 and #7, I agree with these grades with Stanley at #12. That said, Hurst and Elamanour/Skura ranked in the bottom of their positions. I think where credit hasn't been given in this case is to Watson and Boyle who had a big hand in chipping and blocking Khalil Mack, the Ravens did not intend to leave Mack alone one on one against Stanley and Howard. I think they bring an element that they haven't had at TE with their blocking and it's helped in a big way. They have helped in immense ways in the run/pass game and while I think the Ravens offensive line bounced back in a big way, I cannot agree with a #4 ranking at all.


PFF to me relies heavily on the eye test which can be misleading at times because unless you get a replay at the play and are able to diagnose it quickly, you can't say conclusively what happened. They may subject their grades to change, but I don't often see them do that.
I'm unsure if my lengthy response answered anything in part. I remember the Packers and Chiefs game, and I don't believe that score was intended to be changed based on how they grade. They are notoriously harsh on turnovers and turnover worthy plays, so the lost fumble and dropped potential pick-six took him down some. That does appear unfair, and it's why their QB and RB rankings are sometimes a bit rough around the edges. I agree, it's absolutely important to know the assignments, I agree there. That said, we're all at the same disadvantage and that doesn't prevent us from attempting to break down performances. I'm unsure that they've been known to specifically give negative grades as their guidelines have always stated that they don't neg the inconclusive ones, although that obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a virtual certainty in fact that it has to occur at some point. The point I provided above about the Bengals OL coach is arguably a solid example of such. I concur with the example of chipping against Mack. I coincidentally mentioned the same point just a bit ago. That said, I don't know that I can agree with the TEs being the biggest difference in our OTs being better on the edges. It appears that they've updated the grades since the article was posted. We are collectively at a 69.4 if we include Skura, the highest rated OG. We're at a 66.9 with Eluemenor. Those would placed us at 10th and 12th. I do have to disagree about the changes. They don't update their articles, but the changes have significant for a few seasons now. I've seen players shoot up and or shoot down a considerable amount. I hope I've responded to everything.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
I'm unsure if my lengthy response answered anything in part. I remember the Packers and Chiefs game, and I don't believe that score was intended to be changed based on how they grade. They are notoriously harsh on turnovers and turnover worthy plays, so the lost fumble and dropped potential pick-six took him down some. That does appear unfair, and it's why their QB and RB rankings are sometimes a bit rough around the edges. I agree, it's absolutely important to know the assignments, I agree there. That said, we're all at the same disadvantage and that doesn't prevent us from attempting to break down performances. I'm unsure that they've been known to specifically give negative grades as their guidelines have always stated that they don't neg the inconclusive ones, although that obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a virtual certainty in fact that it has to occur at some point. The point I provided above about the Bengals OL coach is arguably a solid example of such. I concur with the example of chipping against Mack. I coincidentally mentioned the same point just a bit ago. That said, I don't know that I can agree with the TEs being the biggest difference in our OTs being better on the edges. It appears that they've updated the grades since the article was posted. We are collectively at a 69.4 if we include Skura, the highest rated OG. We're at a 66.9 with Eluemenor. Those would placed us at 10th and 12th. I do have to disagree about the changes. They don't update their articles, but the changes have significant for a few seasons now. I've seen players shoot up and or shoot down a considerable amount. I hope I've responded to everything.
In addition to the last remark about the changes, I’ve seen players get changed even after the season ended, ie I believe it was Brandin Williams grade changed on that regards.
 
Last edited:

29BmoreBird22

Staff Member
Moderator
Writer
While the sentiment appears to denote a general incapability of the staff to grade any NFL players, the center of the point can't be discounted. Unless you're involved in the meetings, the huddles and the plays, there is bound to be a missing piece of the puzzle that constantly eludes the observer. There's no two ways about it. However, not only does this hold true with most position groups, it also innately classifies non-participants as incapable assessors of the intricate details of the respective group that they're observing. On its own accord, it's a seismic leap to presume that their 350 employees are without football experience to any degree with no knowledge of their backgrounds. And even if we limit Lang's beliefs to the initial statement of, "there’s no way you can possibly accurately grade offensive linemen if you haven’t done that job before in your life," it creates an almost never-ending list of analysts whose opinions are devalued or even disregarded by the sheer virtue of not being former or current offensive linemen. That includes the likes of Matt Miller, who while served as a secondary and ST coordinator in the CFL, to my knowledge wasn't a former offensive line. I could be mistaken about his playing history, but there are other notable examples that would be applicable. It can't be had both ways. In my opinion, it's an ad hominem that allows no other paths outside of appeal-to-authority. It's not as blunt as LeSean McCoy's evaluation of, "a bunch of nerds who never played a lick of football in your whole life," but it's a similar sentiment. It should be noted that the underlying critique of the usage of the grades is at least partly understandable. When an innately subjective product is being used in contract negotiations, it's bound to draw immediate heat from the ones being evaluated, which is sensible. That said, its merits are far from being universally panned from within. The Bengals OL coach, Paul Alexander, the longest tenured at 23 years of experience, reviewed 600 plays where his linemen were downgraded and he disagreed with only 12. It's not overly surprising given that they're taught to not downgrade when there's any ambiguity. But none of that is relevant if the above logic holds true. Because if it is accurate, then my opinions about the OL are automatically questionable and/or are invalidated based entirely on my playing history. Frankly, I'd have no business posting in this thread or anywhere outside of the DB thread, and that would apply to most of the members on this forum. I did practice at RB and WR so I can at least chaperone those haven't. It sounds silly and contrived, and that's because it mostly is, especially since all of our opinions are also subjective. I fully understand the hesitation about the grades on the merits of inescapable subjectivity and the underlined lack of insider information. While I do feel that the grades have mostly been accurate, they haven't always been perfect, nor will they be. I also understand why one would lean on other sources that have more personal knowledge in comparison. But I outright reject any notion predicated upon deciding merits exclusively based on playing history. Me playing DB by no means means that I'm more aware of the exact calls being made, or where the players are asked to line up by their respective coaching staffs. In that respect, I'm at just as big of a disadvantage as somebody who's never played the sport, and if that's the missing piece, then we're all missing it.

Conversely, their statistics are certainly useful and the metrics behind the premium stats such as pass rushing productivity and defensive stops are conceptually sound. That being said, not only are they equally as subjective on their own, they are significantly more error prone. Of the countless examples to name, Brandon Carr's allowed QB rating of 20 was the lowest number allowed through the first 4 weeks. He didn't allow a single touchdown, had two interceptions, and was in the Top 10 in almost every other metric. Was he the best CB in the league? No. In fact, tape wise he was arguably our third best corner. Why the disparity? Andy Dalton botches the pass to a wide open Cody Core for what would've been a 59 yard TD. Martavis Bryant has several yards of separation on a sailed throw for what would've been a 41 yard TD. Those two plays alone would've literally accounted for more than Carr's entire yardage allowed in those 4 games. It would've also almost quadrupled his allowed passer rating. On paper, they're two incompletions that aid his performance on those plays. That's not even mentioning the fact that assessing coverage numbers requires a detailed understanding of coverage concepts, audibles, and natures of miscommunications; so if we're questioning their ability to break down plays but then utilizing their numbers that are derived from those breakdowns, it's the epitome of counterintuitive. Another recent example is of Austin Howard, who didn't allow a pressure on 26 pass attempts against a Khalil Mack-led pass rush, who had 17 attempts from the same side. On paper, it presents itself as a brilliant performance. It doesn't show that we kept in a TE to chip on at least a handful of snaps or account for the doubles, nor the times Mack stunted inside. He still obviously held his own, but statistically, it has the same weight as an OT who went one on one with an elite pass rusher and shut them down on the same number of snaps since the pass blocking efficiency numbers would spike up at an identical rate in both scenarios. My write up on Zach Orr portrayed a putrid performance against Pittsburgh. Technically, he was among the top LBs in the league in run stops that week. Every statistical number pointed to a rock solid performance. The tape, however, portrayed an entirely different story. This also wasn't a single occurrence. He finished with the 4th most stops of any ILB for the entire season. Orr was a poster child for performances defying numbers, even ones with high-end formulas that are generally solid reflections. It definitely seems that you and I are in full agreement that the innate subjectivity of the grades will always raise questions, as it should. That aside, if I were forced to trust one over the one, with as familiar as I've been with the product, I would have a significantly difficult time siding with the statistics. The part best, however, is that nobody has to. In fact, choosing a single rubric is perhaps the least ideal method.

Ironically, the best aspect of the grades is that they provide no context for the variables. That's because doing so would double down on the subjectivity. It'd be essentially basing grades on grades. This is where I as a user am meant to do my own bidding and judge using deductive reasoning. For example, there are multiple CBs graded in the Top 15 whom have mostly played in the slot. One of the Top 4 graded CBs has played a mere 73 snaps in coverage. The grades don't account for the quality of safeties, the consistency of the pressure, the defensive schemes or the strength of schedule. Fortunately, all of those facets are available for us to decipher. Take the comparison between Nickell Robey-Coleman and Jimmy Smith. The former is graded higher by .3. The best player he's faced in the slot this season was Doug Baldwin. Smith, on the other hand, has been on the outside facing the likes of Antonio Brown and A.J. Green. Overall, Smith's grade is arguably more impressive in comparison. Truthfully, the argument could be made in favor of Smith over several other CBs above him. And such arguments are able to hold water because that's the benefit of the fact that grades are given out solely based on a player's performance within their role. All of the information on hand, including the premium statistics, is free to be used in conjunction together for clarity, so using the grades as a hardline ranking at purely their face value isn't a necessity. It's no different than how players are evaluated in other methods, i.e. explaining DeAndre Hopkins' low receiving numbers from last season by mentioning the ineptitude of the QB situation. Obviously tape rules over everything. But I would wager that almost none of us have the time to hold down our part/full-time jobs, classes, and personal lives and have the means to evaluate most of the plays in league while giving each of them a fair shake attention wise. In that respect, it's helpful to have a source that be at least be used as a reference point. If somebody chooses to go a different route, I'd personally understand. But I'll always take issue with any notion that screams at me or anyone else here not to trust their own judgement.
This still doesn't change the fact that I do not like the way they grade and I value their premium statistics, but will not rely on their grades.

And just to add, I hold offensive lineman in a different light than any other position grade wise because of the fact that it is a cohesive five man unit that has to work in conjunction incredibly well and with synergy. It is by far the most subjective and difficult of any group, in my opinion, to actually gauge properly and I share Lang's sentiment that unless you are playing offensive line, you will be inherently behind the 8 ball.
 

Sledge Hammer

Pro Bowler
Jensen is going to be the best center in the league by seasons end. As he adjusts to the mental side of the position his power temperament and edge is something no center around the league can match. I wanted him as our center since the last 4 games of 2015. He and Osemele were destroying on that side. If Eluemunor can get up to speed he brings many similar attributes as Jensen. Them dudes can be the feared earth movers inside that can strike fear in opponents and put the offense over the top. If opposing defenses are fearing getting mauled then it is not thinking of doing their jobs. Which opens up running game. Then in turn gives Flacco time he needs to set and throw. And WRs get time to work their routes.

It would be really cool if Eluemunor can get up to speed. I know he came into the league green as valley grass. But like Jensen he brings physical attributes that can't be taught. Jensen is back to his 2015 size and form. On side notes Stanley looks skinny this year. Late last season he really packed on size to go with his technique. And it really put him over as an elite performing tackle. Maybe he tried to lean out and lost some muscle to. But late last season Stanley when he packed on the size to match Tunsils upper body put him over as the superior player and correct pick. Howard looks to have leaned out and back to his 2015 form of a big aggressive mauler with enough athleticism and great technique. He actually looks better than he ever did with raiders. If Eluemunor can get up to speed the oline is solid with a chance to be dominant. If yanda wasn't hurt it could be very dominant. An up to speed Eluemunor with yanda and Jensen would be the best interior trio in league. Injuries once again set the team back. It blows cuz with yanda the oline everybody was so worried about would be dominant
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Jensen is going to be the best center in the league by seasons end. As he adjusts to the mental side of the position his power temperament and edge is something no center around the league can match. I wanted him as our center since the last 4 games of 2015. He and Osemele were destroying on that side. If Eluemunor can get up to speed he brings many similar attributes as Jensen. Them dudes can be the feared earth movers inside that can strike fear in opponents and put the offense over the top. If opposing defenses are fearing getting mauled then it is not thinking of doing their jobs. Which opens up running game. Then in turn gives Flacco time he needs to set and throw. And WRs get time to work their routes.

It would be really cool if Eluemunor can get up to speed. I know he came into the league green as valley grass. But like Jensen he brings physical attributes that can't be taught. Jensen is back to his 2015 size and form. On side notes Stanley looks skinny this year. Late last season he really packed on size to go with his technique. And it really put him over as an elite performing tackle. Maybe he tried to lean out and lost some muscle to. But late last season Stanley when he packed on the size to match Tunsils upper body put him over as the superior player and correct pick. Howard looks to have leaned out and back to his 2015 form of a big aggressive mauler with enough athleticism and great technique. He actually looks better than he ever did with raiders. If Eluemunor can get up to speed the oline is solid with a chance to be dominant. If yanda wasn't hurt it could be very dominant. An up to speed Eluemunor with yanda and Jensen would be the best interior trio in league. Injuries once again set the team back. It blows cuz with yanda the oline everybody was so worried about would be dominant
I agree Jensen can only improve from here. Stanley has spent oodles of time in the weight room gaining muscle, so he definitely hasn’t lost any muscle. He most likely started a little off this season due to a change in scheme, having an injury in the preseason, and having Hurst as opposed to Yanda next to him. He’s on his way back to his elite numbers.

I feel Eleumenor has some serious potential, but we have to bring him on slowly. Unfortunately do to injuries he has to be the starting rg. I certainly hope we have the money under the cap to pay him next season.
 
While the sentiment appears to denote a general incapability of the staff to grade any NFL players, the center of the point can't be discounted. Unless you're involved in the meetings, the huddles and the plays, there is bound to be a missing piece of the puzzle that constantly eludes the observer. There's no two ways about it. However, not only does this hold true with most position groups, it also innately classifies non-participants as incapable assessors of the intricate details of the respective group that they're observing. On its own accord, it's a seismic leap to presume that their 350 employees are without football experience to any degree with no knowledge of their backgrounds. And even if we limit Lang's beliefs to the initial statement of, "there’s no way you can possibly accurately grade offensive linemen if you haven’t done that job before in your life," it creates an almost never-ending list of analysts whose opinions are devalued or even disregarded by the sheer virtue of not being former or current offensive linemen. That includes the likes of Matt Miller, who while served as a secondary and ST coordinator in the CFL, to my knowledge wasn't a former offensive line. I could be mistaken about his playing history, but there are other notable examples that would be applicable. It can't be had both ways. In my opinion, it's an ad hominem that allows no other paths outside of appeal-to-authority. It's not as blunt as LeSean McCoy's evaluation of, "a bunch of nerds who never played a lick of football in your whole life," but it's a similar sentiment. It should be noted that the underlying critique of the usage of the grades is at least partly understandable. When an innately subjective product is being used in contract negotiations, it's bound to draw immediate heat from the ones being evaluated, which is sensible. That said, its merits are far from being universally panned from within. The Bengals OL coach, Paul Alexander, the longest tenured at 23 years of experience, reviewed 600 plays where his linemen were downgraded and he disagreed with only 12. It's not overly surprising given that they're taught to not downgrade when there's any ambiguity. But none of that is relevant if the above logic holds true. Because if it is accurate, then my opinions about the OL are automatically questionable and/or are invalidated based entirely on my playing history. Frankly, I'd have no business posting in this thread or anywhere outside of the DB thread, and that would apply to most of the members on this forum. I did practice at RB and WR so I can at least chaperone those haven't. It sounds silly and contrived, and that's because it mostly is, especially since all of our opinions are also subjective. I fully understand the hesitation about the grades on the merits of inescapable subjectivity and the underlined lack of insider information. While I do feel that the grades have mostly been accurate, they haven't always been perfect, nor will they be. I also understand why one would lean on other sources that have more personal knowledge in comparison. But I outright reject any notion predicated upon deciding merits exclusively based on playing history. Me playing DB by no means means that I'm more aware of the exact calls being made, or where the players are asked to line up by their respective coaching staffs. In that respect, I'm at just as big of a disadvantage as somebody who's never played the sport, and if that's the missing piece, then we're all missing it.

Conversely, their statistics are certainly useful and the metrics behind the premium stats such as pass rushing productivity and defensive stops are conceptually sound. That being said, not only are they equally as subjective on their own, they are significantly more error prone. Of the countless examples to name, Brandon Carr's allowed QB rating of 20 was the lowest number allowed through the first 4 weeks. He didn't allow a single touchdown, had two interceptions, and was in the Top 10 in almost every other metric. Was he the best CB in the league? No. In fact, tape wise he was arguably our third best corner. Why the disparity? Andy Dalton botches the pass to a wide open Cody Core for what would've been a 59 yard TD. Martavis Bryant has several yards of separation on a sailed throw for what would've been a 41 yard TD. Those two plays alone would've literally accounted for more than Carr's entire yardage allowed in those 4 games. It would've also almost quadrupled his allowed passer rating. On paper, they're two incompletions that aid his performance on those plays. That's not even mentioning the fact that assessing coverage numbers requires a detailed understanding of coverage concepts, audibles, and natures of miscommunications; so if we're questioning their ability to break down plays but then utilizing their numbers that are derived from those breakdowns, it's the epitome of counterintuitive. Another recent example is of Austin Howard, who didn't allow a pressure on 26 pass attempts against a Khalil Mack-led pass rush, who had 17 attempts from the same side. On paper, it presents itself as a brilliant performance. It doesn't show that we kept in a TE to chip on at least a handful of snaps or account for the doubles, nor the times Mack stunted inside. He still obviously held his own, but statistically, it has the same weight as an OT who went one on one with an elite pass rusher and shut them down on the same number of snaps since the pass blocking efficiency numbers would spike up at an identical rate in both scenarios. My write up on Zach Orr portrayed a putrid performance against Pittsburgh. Technically, he was among the top LBs in the league in run stops that week. Every statistical number pointed to a rock solid performance. The tape, however, portrayed an entirely different story. This also wasn't a single occurrence. He finished with the 4th most stops of any ILB for the entire season. Orr was a poster child for performances defying numbers, even ones with high-end formulas that are generally solid reflections. It definitely seems that you and I are in full agreement that the innate subjectivity of the grades will always raise questions, as it should. That aside, if I were forced to trust one over the one, with as familiar as I've been with the product, I would have a significantly difficult time siding with the statistics. The part best, however, is that nobody has to. In fact, choosing a single rubric is perhaps the least ideal method.

Ironically, the best aspect of the grades is that they provide no context for the variables. That's because doing so would double down on the subjectivity. It'd be essentially basing grades on grades. This is where I as a user am meant to do my own bidding and judge using deductive reasoning. For example, there are multiple CBs graded in the Top 15 whom have mostly played in the slot. One of the Top 4 graded CBs has played a mere 73 snaps in coverage. The grades don't account for the quality of safeties, the consistency of the pressure, the defensive schemes or the strength of schedule. Fortunately, all of those facets are available for us to decipher. Take the comparison between Nickell Robey-Coleman and Jimmy Smith. The former is graded higher by .3. The best player he's faced in the slot this season was Doug Baldwin. Smith, on the other hand, has been on the outside facing the likes of Antonio Brown and A.J. Green. Overall, Smith's grade is arguably more impressive in comparison. Truthfully, the argument could be made in favor of Smith over several other CBs above him. And such arguments are able to hold water because that's the benefit of the fact that grades are given out solely based on a player's performance within their role. All of the information on hand, including the premium statistics, is free to be used in conjunction together for clarity, so using the grades as a hardline ranking at purely their face value isn't a necessity. It's no different than how players are evaluated in other methods, i.e. explaining DeAndre Hopkins' low receiving numbers from last season by mentioning the ineptitude of the QB situation. Obviously tape rules over everything. But I would wager that almost none of us have the time to hold down our part/full-time jobs, classes, and personal lives and have the means to evaluate most of the plays in league while giving each of them a fair shake attention wise. In that respect, it's helpful to have a source that be at least be used as a reference point. If somebody chooses to go a different route, I'd personally understand. But I'll always take issue with any notion that screams at me or anyone else here not to trust their own judgement.

I dont know what you wrote in that crushing wall of text but I am impressed. Here, have a medal.
 
With the success of Jensen so far this season Im wondering if our front office should just get oxygen machines for everyone over 300 lb, I know most teams send out expensive mattresses to their players.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Just thought I’d post this final paragraph from an article I read today regarding the Ravens Oline.

There are sure to be rough patches ahead. However, fans should look at this incarnation of this Ravens team as a two-year plan. Do not despair, the future is perhaps not as murky as originally thought.

Could this author be reading PurpleFlock or could the author actually be @Lost_In_Translation. Hmmmm
 
Last edited:

Sledge Hammer

Pro Bowler
I agree Jensen can only improve from here. Stanley has spent oodles of time in the weight room gaining muscle, so he definitely hasn’t lost any muscle. He most likely started a little off this season due to a change in scheme, having an injury in the preseason, and having Hurst as opposed to Yanda next to him. He’s on his way back to his elite numbers.

I feel Eleumenor has some serious potential, but we have to bring him on slowly. Unfortunately do to injuries he has to be the starting rg. I certainly hope we have the money under the cap to pay him next season.

And let's acknowledge Jensen isn't a Kevin Gogan type mauler that mauls to compensate for athletic deficiencies. He is very very athletic for a 330lb interior lineman. His combine numbers were really good. And some believed he could be a RT!! His brother was a highly touted player with round2 hype if I remember correctly. He got some type of injury.

Jensen didn't bring the hype of his brother but was actually a bigger stronger player with as much athleticism. Maybe it was due to his ADD or similar type problem. Having trouble sleeping or something like that. Maybe that was what bumped him down. But his physical attributes is top shelf. If Eluemunor can get up to speed and consistent?? I really like this OLine. And Eluemunor really wants it. The dude wants to be great!!

Not that I want to count on him next year. I think Alex Lewis has good potential. He never is gonna be a leverage player on the interior. But he could maybe be a mauler through long arms and big strong hands to grip and control. He did look bigger and stronger this year. And his leverage should improve some as he adjusts to the interior play. I wouldn't count on him or Hurst next season. I would really prefer the guard from Notre Dame to fill out the interior with Jensen and Eluemunor going into the future. And Yanda Jensen next season. Really has to do with Yanda returning to form and or Eluemunor fulfilling potential
 
To me Jensens footwork and footspeed is around average or below average, hes stronger than most centers and pretty nasty and thats why hes doing well. Also theres no way he could play RT imo, not at this level.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
And let's acknowledge Jensen isn't a Kevin Gogan type mauler that mauls to compensate for athletic deficiencies. He is very very athletic for a 330lb interior lineman. His combine numbers were really good. And some believed he could be a RT!! His brother was a highly touted player with round2 hype if I remember correctly. He got some type of injury.

Jensen didn't bring the hype of his brother but was actually a bigger stronger player with as much athleticism. Maybe it was due to his ADD or similar type problem. Having trouble sleeping or something like that. Maybe that was what bumped him down. But his physical attributes is top shelf. If Eluemunor can get up to speed and consistent?? I really like this OLine. And Eluemunor really wants it. The dude wants to be great!!

Not that I want to count on him next year. I think Alex Lewis has good potential. He never is gonna be a leverage player on the interior. But he could maybe be a mauler through long arms and big strong hands to grip and control. He did look bigger and stronger this year. And his leverage should improve some as he adjusts to the interior play. I wouldn't count on him or Hurst next season. I would really prefer the guard from Notre Dame to fill out the interior with Jensen and Eluemunor going into the future. And Yanda Jensen next season. Really has to do with Yanda returning to form and or Eluemunor fulfilling potential
Yeah, this line could be really stout next year, especially if we are able to land Quenton Nelson. He has also played with Stanley a year or two. I haven’t watched much tape, but Nelson is one of the players I have watched. He moves defenders in the ground game at the point of attack and is also very good in the passing game. He could probably play all along the line in the pinch and as I’ve said, Be Yandas replacement (Yanda can’t be replaced) when he decides to hang up his kleets.
Drafting Nelson and resigning Jensen and Hurst not only improves our interior line play, but improves our depth tremendously,
 
Last edited:

jboy19

Pro Bowler
Quenton Nelson gifs from the VT game.

Two things stand out about Nelson immediately:

1.) This kid is very powerful and he's a ferocious blocker:


giphy.gif



2.) He's a really smart player:


giphy.gif



Another snap where he lays his initial block and then adjusts to the blitzer/interior rusher and plants him:


giphy.gif



You can tell this kid is super well coached and he's got a killer instinct. He finishes blocks like an animal but he's a clean player. Doesn't get grabby, and never takes it too far. Here's another good example:


giphy.gif



Nelson is absolutely brilliant in pass protection. He plays with perfect technique. Great knee bend, back straight, head up, arms extended. He doesn't get tired and let his technique slip. He keeps his head on a swivel and is always feeling out the pocket and making adjustments. He is consistent all of the way through the fourth quarter and the result is that he never misses assignments or give up pressure. The only pressure from his area I saw were two bad play designs, one where he was stuck with two rushers and the other where he was supposed to trap but the rusher jumped the snap and got through immediately.


He's physically gifted. Flexible and moves his feet very well to maintain a wide base and good balance. Vines for arms and good quick twitch musculature for his size--usually the first one off the line of scrimmage and has a very sudden first few steps. He carries his weight well, huge trunk and wide, columnar body. He's just a massive player, 330 is his natural weight. He pretty much always generates push when he drives and has an absolutely immovable anchor. He's a true power blocker who's got an NFL ready body and could step onto the field as a rookie and be a high end starter.


As far as weaknesses, he doesn't have any major ones. Such a smart and disciplined and well coached player. The footspeed when he gets out into the second level is really good. And he's good at adjusting to moving targets. He is definitely a strong pull blocker and he is very good on reaches because those first steps are explosive and he keeps his head up and lands a good punch. Really excels at turning and sealing to open lanes. He's a very good run blocker period.


He's also gotten better this year than he was last year. His second level blocking in the BC game cutups was noticeably better than it was in the VT game I pulled these gifs from.


My projection for Nelson is that he's got All-Pro potential at LG with the size and balance and lateral fluidity to play OT too. If we had him at LG today, we'd have a top 5 to 10 line in the league, without Yanda. He'd fit anywhere, but he's a particularly great fit for our offense because of the multiple nature of our blocking schemes and the degree of difficulty required for the blocks in our run game.

Put this kid on my wish list. Nelson is number 1 on my wish list. He's a blue chipper who is probably going to get picked really high.

Love the write up. I'd be stoked to have Nelson in Baltimore. I love the way he finishes blocks (very evident in your gifs). The way things look right now, (assuming Jensen is retained and Howard's option is picked up) an OL of Stanley-Nelson-Jensen-Yanda-Howard could actually be the best in the league next year. The depth (Lewis, Siragusa, Eluemunor) would be pretty astounding as well.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Love the write up. I'd be stoked to have Nelson in Baltimore. I love the way he finishes blocks (very evident in your gifs). The way things look right now, (assuming Jensen is retained and Howard's option is picked up) an OL of Stanley-Nelson-Jensen-Yanda-Howard could actually be the best in the league next year. The depth (Lewis, Siragusa, Eluemunor) would be pretty astounding as well.
No question, our oline would look really good. I’d also like to draft a mid round right tackle. Btw, Hurst if resigned could be swing Tackle depth as well.
 
Do you think they would extend Yanda or ask him to take a salary reduction?
I think they will just take the cap hit down, he's not that far removed from his last deal
I'm unsure if my lengthy response answered anything in part. I remember the Packers and Chiefs game, and I don't believe that score was intended to be changed based on how they grade. They are notoriously harsh on turnovers and turnover worthy plays, so the lost fumble and dropped potential pick-six took him down some. That does appear unfair, and it's why their QB and RB rankings are sometimes a bit rough around the edges. I agree, it's absolutely important to know the assignments, I agree there. That said, we're all at the same disadvantage and that doesn't prevent us from attempting to break down performances. I'm unsure that they've been known to specifically give negative grades as their guidelines have always stated that they don't neg the inconclusive ones, although that obviously doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It's a virtual certainty in fact that it has to occur at some point. The point I provided above about the Bengals OL coach is arguably a solid example of such. I concur with the example of chipping against Mack. I coincidentally mentioned the same point just a bit ago. That said, I don't know that I can agree with the TEs being the biggest difference in our OTs being better on the edges. It appears that they've updated the grades since the article was posted. We are collectively at a 69.4 if we include Skura, the highest rated OG. We're at a 66.9 with Eluemenor. Those would placed us at 10th and 12th. I do have to disagree about the changes. They don't update their articles, but the changes have significant for a few seasons now. I've seen players shoot up and or shoot down a considerable amount. I hope I've responded to everything.

You did address everything and even though that's unfortunate in the fact that they don't have all of that information immediately, I do believe that there could still be more evaluation done before putting the grades out. I recall that they used to put out their grades a day later but now it's like they put them in 40 mins after the game ends, I just don't think that's enough time for a evaluation and while their grades are subject to change I just don't know how often they are.

In terms of our TEs being a difference, I think PFF has recognized it in the fact that Watson and Boyle have combined for 248 yards through five games, yet have a grade of 70.1 and 71.7 respectively. I think they've done a tremendous job in maintaining their blocks and chipping defenders and it's helped tremendously, I saw Ben Watson pancake one of the Raiders linebackers, Adams I believe on a run play, that's something that should never happen, it's almost line having an extra linemen there and while they are not going to impact the game much in pass catching, they certainly do run blocking, Pitta was one of our biggest liabilities in this aspect IMO. I think a lot of credit should be given to Stanley and Howard, and I think the unit did fantastic against Oakland and where helped a ton by Watson and Boyle.
 

Sledge Hammer

Pro Bowler
Quenton Nelson gifs from the VT game.

Two things stand out about Nelson immediately:

1.) This kid is very powerful and he's a ferocious blocker:


giphy.gif



2.) He's a really smart player:


giphy.gif



Another snap where he lays his initial block and then adjusts to the blitzer/interior rusher and plants him:


giphy.gif



You can tell this kid is super well coached and he's got a killer instinct. He finishes blocks like an animal but he's a clean player. Doesn't get grabby, and never takes it too far. Here's another good example:


giphy.gif



Nelson is absolutely brilliant in pass protection. He plays with perfect technique. Great knee bend, back straight, head up, arms extended. He doesn't get tired and let his technique slip. He keeps his head on a swivel and is always feeling out the pocket and making adjustments. He is consistent all of the way through the fourth quarter and the result is that he never misses assignments or give up pressure. The only pressure from his area I saw were two bad play designs, one where he was stuck with two rushers and the other where he was supposed to trap but the rusher jumped the snap and got through immediately.


He's physically gifted. Flexible and moves his feet very well to maintain a wide base and good balance. Vines for arms and good quick twitch musculature for his size--usually the first one off the line of scrimmage and has a very sudden first few steps. He carries his weight well, huge trunk and wide, columnar body. He's just a massive player, 330 is his natural weight. He pretty much always generates push when he drives and has an absolutely immovable anchor. He's a true power blocker who's got an NFL ready body and could step onto the field as a rookie and be a high end starter.


As far as weaknesses, he doesn't have any major ones. Such a smart and disciplined and well coached player. The footspeed when he gets out into the second level is really good. And he's good at adjusting to moving targets. He is definitely a strong pull blocker and he is very good on reaches because those first steps are explosive and he keeps his head up and lands a good punch. Really excels at turning and sealing to open lanes. He's a very good run blocker period.


He's also gotten better this year than he was last year. His second level blocking in the BC game cutups was noticeably better than it was in the VT game I pulled these gifs from.


My projection for Nelson is that he's got All-Pro potential at LG with the size and balance and lateral fluidity to play OT too. If we had him at LG today, we'd have a top 5 to 10 line in the league, without Yanda. He'd fit anywhere, but he's a particularly great fit for our offense because of the multiple nature of our blocking schemes and the degree of difficulty required for the blocks in our run game.

Put this kid on my wish list. Nelson is number 1 on my wish list. He's a blue chipper who is probably going to get picked really high.

Not a player in the draft I like better than Nelson. A very rare player. He could play left tackle at a high level if necessary. Jensen isn't the athlete Nelson is. But Jensens athleticism is underrated and far from a liability. The interior of Jensen Yanda and Nelson would have NFL defenses playing in fear. Which would open things up for running game Joe and his WRs.

If protected and allowed to set and throw. Joe could be a top 8 QB. Regardless who he is throwing the ball to.Stanley should continue to get stronger as well and keep speed rushers off joe and help maul in the run game. Howard is a adequate at RT and kinda of a surprise. He leaned out really fast and looks better than he ever did with raiders. But he is aging and it would be cool to pick up a RT within first 3 rounds.
 
I think going forward we still risk losing Jensen to UFA and Yanda to retirement next offseasons, thats a worst case scenario and one we should be prepared for but Im hopeful that we finally address the engine room. In a best case scenario we keep Jensen, Yanda returns and we pick up at least two marquee prospects in the draft.
 

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
Yanda retiring serms unlikely. Losing Jensen is possible but hopefully they get the money to resign him. Drafting Yandas replacement is obviously a high priority but the line is deeper than expected and unlikely to be a weakness going forward even if no one is brought in.
 
Why would it be unlikely? he'll be 34 next season coming off a major injury, he also hasn't had any help since KO left. This offseason when I said Yanda could start breaking down everyone said it was unlikely because he's not that injury prone.

On the bright side we do have some depth, Lewis has starting experience, Elumenor has big potential but I don't like Goose's injury, thats a possible career ender he tore up his entire knee. If we have 4 proven commodities ie Stanley, Jensen, Yanda and Austin we can afford to cover for a weaker 5th lineman preferable at LG which is probably Lewis again, or maybe Eluemenor if he breaks out. With that said I'd still like for us to bring in a swing tackle and interior lineman who are closer to starting than the practice squad.
 
Quenton Nelson gifs from the VT game.

Two things stand out about Nelson immediately:

1.) This kid is very powerful and he's a ferocious blocker:


giphy.gif



2.) He's a really smart player:


giphy.gif



Another snap where he lays his initial block and then adjusts to the blitzer/interior rusher and plants him:


giphy.gif



You can tell this kid is super well coached and he's got a killer instinct. He finishes blocks like an animal but he's a clean player. Doesn't get grabby, and never takes it too far. Here's another good example:


giphy.gif



Nelson is absolutely brilliant in pass protection. He plays with perfect technique. Great knee bend, back straight, head up, arms extended. He doesn't get tired and let his technique slip. He keeps his head on a swivel and is always feeling out the pocket and making adjustments. He is consistent all of the way through the fourth quarter and the result is that he never misses assignments or give up pressure. The only pressure from his area I saw were two bad play designs, one where he was stuck with two rushers and the other where he was supposed to trap but the rusher jumped the snap and got through immediately.


He's physically gifted. Flexible and moves his feet very well to maintain a wide base and good balance. Vines for arms and good quick twitch musculature for his size--usually the first one off the line of scrimmage and has a very sudden first few steps. He carries his weight well, huge trunk and wide, columnar body. He's just a massive player, 330 is his natural weight. He pretty much always generates push when he drives and has an absolutely immovable anchor. He's a true power blocker who's got an NFL ready body and could step onto the field as a rookie and be a high end starter.


As far as weaknesses, he doesn't have any major ones. Such a smart and disciplined and well coached player. The footspeed when he gets out into the second level is really good. And he's good at adjusting to moving targets. He is definitely a strong pull blocker and he is very good on reaches because those first steps are explosive and he keeps his head up and lands a good punch. Really excels at turning and sealing to open lanes. He's a very good run blocker period.


He's also gotten better this year than he was last year. His second level blocking in the BC game cutups was noticeably better than it was in the VT game I pulled these gifs from.


My projection for Nelson is that he's got All-Pro potential at LG with the size and balance and lateral fluidity to play OT too. If we had him at LG today, we'd have a top 5 to 10 line in the league, without Yanda. He'd fit anywhere, but he's a particularly great fit for our offense because of the multiple nature of our blocking schemes and the degree of difficulty required for the blocks in our run game.

Put this kid on my wish list. Nelson is number 1 on my wish list. He's a blue chipper who is probably going to get picked really high.
I was a big fan of Nelson in last years draft and thought that he would be our pick in the 1st round, lol. He got a first round grade I believe but still decided to return to College. Maybe he wants to build on his craft but he's a guy that I think is an impact starter day one, much in the mold of Zach Martin. I don't know if he falls to us since this is a weak class, I honestly think that if we take anyone in the 1st at the moment it would be a WR.
 
Top