The Offensive Line Thread

[rossihunter2]

I'm really going to miss Hurst, I've fricken loved this guy going into his final year in college. He was being talked about as an early 1st pick but broke his leg and went undrafted. He got so much hate for not succeeding but what do you expect from a guy who was forced to play LT as an undrafted rookie coming off an awful injury, learning guard and RT all camp. Played 4 positions in 3 years, and has excelled now that he finally has been allowed to settle. Can we also mention that (this isn't a fact but I'm fairly certain) He is the only player who hasn't been hurt in the last 4 years on this team.

well now you've jinxed it

 

[Ravenbran]

im not sure i know what you've been watching all year - barring 2 bad games (1 against jax where everyone was awful and the other against tennessee) stanley has been efficient, strong - has graded out as one of the very top run blocking tackles in the league and has demonstrated strong pass blocking all year - he controls rushers so well with his long arms - and this idea that he is soft is utterly devoid of any reason - he's missed 1 game all year when he got a concussion and wasnt cleared to play (not on him) and the only other snaps he's missed were when he got rolled up on - he came back in a series later... that doesnt sound "soft" to me - he's even blocking well in space on the perimeter (watch the lions game if you dont believe me and see how much ground he covers and then blocks on collins td run left - and i dont know what help you are referring to - if anything stanley has been at his best when we've left him on an island - we fixed our pass blocking problems vs the texans by leaving stanley on an island vs clowney and he stone-walled him in the passing game

and im not sure what the rest of your comment has to do with what i wrote but here's a couple of points:

• Lewis was fine in pass blocking but not in run blocking but he's definitely a better tackle prospect than guard
• Hurst is not a physical guard - he's a guy who pulls extremely well and prolifically which is his niche and a team will have to bring him in to do that role elsewhere - but i agree that he's gonna get paid somewhere else and probably earn us a comp pick
• Jensen is absolutely showing that he's worth staying around given the dearth of centers around the league

Yea you were so very right when you made the statement “given the dearth” of centers around the league. Jensen is average or below and almost everyone is worse than him!

 

[rossihunter2]

Yea you were so very right when you made the statement “given the dearth” of centers around the league. Jensen is average or below and almost everyone is worse than him!

that by its very definition is incorrect:
if he is average or below then most centers cant be worse than him - those 2 statements are mutually exclusive - he's been one of the top 5 centers in the league this year and has been an absolute mauler at times

 

[The Raven]

Yea you were so very right when you made the statement “given the dearth” of centers around the league. Jensen is average or below and almost everyone is worse than him!

By rule of logic, these statements cannot both be true.

I'd say he's above average and would be even better if he had Yanda on his right and Lewis on his left.

Ya know, the more I read message boards and comment threads, the more I think that the average fan holds their team's offensive line to impossible standards. There's no question that offensive lines took a step back in the last five years, but some fans really have ridiculous standards. I remember back in 2014 we gave up under 25 sacks and some people were saying we were shit at pass protection.

 

[The Raven]

Oh, and our patchwork offensive line continues to impress me, and I still feel it has everything to do with the scheme. When you let big guys be big guys and pound defenders, you're going to be okay. Zone is a gamble in pro's. Hurst and what's his name are both downgrades over last year's guards, yet we're running the ball better. Two things can account for this: Hurst and what's his name are far better than we think, or gap scheme is far more effective and overall better than zone.

 

[Ravens20002012]

O line limiting penalties has made a big difference

 

[Oldfaithful]

Oh, and our patchwork offensive line continues to impress me, and I still feel it has everything to do with the scheme. When you let big guys be big guys and pound defenders, you're going to be okay. Zone is a gamble in pro's. Hurst and what's his name are both downgrades over last year's guards, yet we're running the ball better. Two things can account for this: Hurst and what's his name are far better than we think, or gap scheme is far more effective and overall better than zone.

The moment we get Yanda back and we get a legit upgrade at LG(sorry but Hurst is gone and I don't trust Lewis at all) is the moment where Alex Collins becomes one of the leading rushers in the NFL next season.

 

[Ravens20002012]

I’m high on Jensen Stanley a top LT and Skura has potential and will keep improving

 

[Oldfaithful]

By rule of logic, these statements cannot both be true.

I'd say he's above average and would be even better if he had Yanda on his right and Lewis on his left.

Ya know, the more I read message boards and comment threads, the more I think that the average fan holds their team's offensive line to impossible standards. There's no question that offensive lines took a step back in the last five years, but some fans really have ridiculous standards. I remember back in 2014 we gave up under 25 sacks and some people were saying we were shit at pass protection.

Yeah. Why didn't we give up 0! They suck

 

[Cville-Raven]

Pretty amazing what an offensive line with only one remaining de facto starter from training camp and a bunch of depth guys has done this season.

 

[RavensMania]

Am I missing something in the statement about Stanley? He’s soft as hell and stays hurt constantly (proof is in the pudding), not worth a dime against speed rushers and has to have help from someone to stop them be it a back or a tight end and I have even seen Hurst having to give him a hand and on top of that wasn’t even in the top 25 tackles in the NFL according to PFF. He definitely has potential though and at least you can see that. Ravens have got guards out the wizoo coming back next year and it’s too bad that the only one coming back worth a dime is Yanda who is getting older and going to be rehabbing all next spring. Lewis was horrible at left guard last year. He was an open gate for pass rushers and he too may not ever be the same. Center? If you want to think old carrot top is the answer then I say go ahead and offer him the moon to stay. If you think Hurst is average then you got your head in a hole if you think Jensen isn’t. As for Hurst I say let him go. Others will offer him more money ( even if a lot of you don’t think he is worth it) but every time the Ravens got in a pickle he stepped up to the plate just like when Lewis decided to have surgery he was given 10 days to get acclimated to a position he has never played in his football career. Hurst will definitely wind up on one the other 31 teams in the NFL who in the future will have a chance of going past the first playoff game!

You can’t really go by the top 25 tackles, because many of those are right tackles. So if he’s graded 28th, he’s not 28th for left tackles. He’s one of the better left tackles I’m the game and improving. Soft, that is really funny. He missed one game this season, due to concussion, and four last year. He also never missed a game in college.

 

[RavensMania]

Pretty amazing what an offensive line with only one remaining de facto starter from training camp and a bunch of depth guys has done this season.

Says a lot about what Greg Roman and Joe D'Alessandris have done with this unit.

 

[arnie_uk]

Oh, and our patchwork offensive line continues to impress me, and I still feel it has everything to do with the scheme. When you let big guys be big guys and pound defenders, you're going to be okay. Zone is a gamble in pro's. Hurst and what's his name are both downgrades over last year's guards, yet we're running the ball better. Two things can account for this: Hurst and what's his name are far better than we think, or gap scheme is far more effective and overall better than zone.

Just curious. Im pretty sure you were probably the loan person dedending castillo and his scheme. Now you say it's the new scheme that helps them out?

Would you care to admit you were wrong on castillo if it indeed was you?

 

[Sledge Hammer]

Am I missing something in the statement about Stanley? He’s soft as hell and stays hurt constantly (proof is in the pudding), not worth a dime against speed rushers and has to have help from someone to stop them be it a back or a tight end and I have even seen Hurst having to give him a hand and on top of that wasn’t even in the top 25 tackles in the NFL according to PFF. He definitely has potential though and at least you can see that. Ravens have got guards out the wizoo coming back next year and it’s too bad that the only one coming back worth a dime is Yanda who is getting older and going to be rehabbing all next spring. Lewis was horrible at left guard last year. He was an open gate for pass rushers and he too may not ever be the same. Center? If you want to think old carrot top is the answer then I say go ahead and offer him the moon to stay. If you think Hurst is average then you got your head in a hole if you think Jensen isn’t. As for Hurst I say let him go. Others will offer him more money ( even if a lot of you don’t think he is worth it) but every time the Ravens got in a pickle he stepped up to the plate just like when Lewis decided to have surgery he was given 10 days to get acclimated to a position he has never played in his football career. Hurst will definitely wind up on one the other 31 teams in the NFL who in the future will have a chance of going past the first playoff game!

Ronnie Stanley I heard is a leader in needing help. I agree that isn't what you want to see out of your franchise left tackle. He is very disappointing vs speed rushers when that was supposed to be his forte. However his problem isn't that he is not fast and athletic enough. The prob is his punch.

He is getting hands on speed rushers but he isn't slowing them down or knocking them off balance. His punch was criticized coming out of college. He bulked up over his last 5 games or so his rookie season. And was one of the best left tackles as a rookie. And this year he seems skinny like in college. And as a result his punch isn't slowing down and knocking off balance the speed rushers with some stout to them.

 

[The Greek]

o-line coach joe d'allesandris deserves some serious kudos along with roman. they have done a great job patching up the o-line with all the injuries

 

[The Raven]

Just curious. Im pretty sure you were probably the loan person dedending castillo and his scheme. Now you say it's the new scheme that helps them out?

Would you care to admit you were wrong on castillo if it indeed was you?

Yeah, I can explain that. I did defend Castillo. And no, I don't think I was wrong, per se. Here's why.

1. Poor personnel. While I've always been a proponent of gap schemes and I've always been weary of zone, I was hesitant to lay any blame at Castillo's feet exclusively for the simple reason that, for much of his time here, we were hamstrung by poor play on the interior and yes, even at right tackle. We had clear weaknesses at LG, C, and RT for most of Castillo's time with the team, and it's impossible to run inside zone with a bad center. The biggest problem was starting Jeremy Zuttah in an inside zone for two years. Wagner was and continues to be a shit run blocker. That's on John and Ozzie. Now you may ask why I don't blame Castillo for running inside zone when the personnel didn't fit that. I don't think it was Castillo's call. I think it was Marty's and Harbaugh's. It's been clear to me that, under Harbaugh, position coaches focus on technique and coordinators set the overall scheme. By extension, I blame Ozzie, too, for never getting linemen that fit our identity.

2. Every team in the NFL runs the inside zone. Every damn team. A lot of teams run it well. Most of them ran it better than us. I will never blame an OL coach for a run game not working when the scheme is proven to work with nearly every other team. Again, this points to personnel being the issue. To blame Castillo for a scheme not working when that scheme works EVERYWHERE ELSE is fucking stupid.

3. We averaged 4 yards a carry last year. That's not bad. By comparison, we average 4.1 now. Based on the numbers, I'm not sure it's mathematically logical to continue to blame Castillo.

4. Castillo is highly regarded by NFL coaching circles. He's always been considered a top OL coach. Castillo is currently offensive line coach for the Buffalo Bills, who average 129 rush yards a game, good for 6th in the league. McCoy is averaging 4.1 yards per carry and hit 1,000. While with the Eagles, Castillo had a good run game there, too. Castillo's record before and after being with us indicates that he wasn't the problem here.

5. The issues last year, in my opinion, were a lack of runs, an inability to run in short yardage, and an inability to break big runs. These issues can be respectively explained by a pass happy OC; a shitty center, left guard, and right tackle; and the scheme -- inside zone isn't meant to break big runs, and it usually doesn't, unless you have Travis Frederick and Zack Martin.

 

[BloodRaven]

Castillo is good at getting the most out of our guys, we just lack physical talent for short yardage especially Hurst and Skura. Im not holding out for Yanda, Lewis or Urschel to solve those issues either, I think Yanda will retire.

 

[arnie_uk]

Yeah, I can explain that. I did defend Castillo. And no, I don't think I was wrong, per se. Here's why.

1. Poor personnel. While I've always been a proponent of gap schemes and I've always been weary of zone, I was hesitant to lay any blame at Castillo's feet exclusively for the simple reason that, for much of his time here, we were hamstrung by poor play on the interior and yes, even at right tackle. We had clear weaknesses at LG, C, and RT for most of Castillo's time with the team, and it's impossible to run inside zone with a bad center. The biggest problem was starting Jeremy Zuttah in an inside zone for two years. Wagner was and continues to be a shit run blocker. That's on John and Ozzie. Now you may ask why I don't blame Castillo for running inside zone when the personnel didn't fit that. I don't think it was Castillo's call. I think it was Marty's and Harbaugh's. It's been clear to me that, under Harbaugh, position coaches focus on technique and coordinators set the overall scheme. By extension, I blame Ozzie, too, for never getting linemen that fit our identity.

2. Every team in the NFL runs the inside zone. Every damn team. A lot of teams run it well. Most of them ran it better than us. I will never blame an OL coach for a run game not working when the scheme is proven to work with nearly every other team. Again, this points to personnel being the issue. To blame Castillo for a scheme not working when that scheme works EVERYWHERE ELSE is fucking stupid.

3. We averaged 4 yards a carry last year. That's not bad. By comparison, we average 4.1 now. Based on the numbers, I'm not sure it's mathematically logical to continue to blame Castillo.

4. Castillo is highly regarded by NFL coaching circles. He's always been considered a top OL coach. Castillo is currently offensive line coach for the Buffalo Bills, who average 129 rush yards a game, good for 6th in the league. McCoy is averaging 4.1 yards per carry and hit 1,000. While with the Eagles, Castillo had a good run game there, too. Castillo's record before and after being with us indicates that he wasn't the problem here.

5. The issues last year, in my opinion, were a lack of runs, an inability to run in short yardage, and an inability to break big runs. These issues can be respectively explained by a pass happy OC; a shitty center, left guard, and right tackle; and the scheme -- inside zone isn't meant to break big runs, and it usually doesn't, unless you have Travis Frederick and Zack Martin.

So whats different this year? Is the talent on the line without yanda better than last year?

I see you said we only average 0.1 more this year, surely thats not possible? Doesnt collins average like 6 himself?

Thought our average would have been one of best

 

[redrum52]

So whats different this year? Is the talent on the line without yanda better than last year?

I see you said we only average 0.1 more this year, surely thats not possible? Doesnt collins average like 6 himself?

Thought our average would have been one of best

Jensen is a better C than Zuttah and Howard is a better run blocker than Wagner. Collins looks like the real deal and Roman has definitely helped. That would be my guess as well as more of a commitment to the run.

 

[The Raven]

So whats different this year? Is the talent on the line without yanda better than last year?

I see you said we only average 0.1 more this year, surely thats not possible? Doesnt collins average like 6 himself?

Thought our average would have been one of best

As I said and as redrum said, we have better run blockers this year. Having an angry man at center makes a big difference in and of itself. Austin Howard is damn near a liability in pass protection but in the run game, and even surprisingly on outside runs, he's a lethal weapon. He probably gets more pancakes a game than Wagner had in his four years with us,

Also, our scheme fits our personnel. That matters.

It's only .1 more on the season as a whole. Collins may be averaging more than that in recent weeks. I don't really have the time or shits to give to break that down game by game.