Lamar Jackson

[rossihunter2]

Yeah...that's just not logical. You can't just crystallize the truth in such reductionist methods.

Stafford is pretty inconsistent with poor decision making. Idk why you are so high on him. I think you're missing some of the nuance of the way passing works, it takes more than just accurate throwing : timing, route running, chemistry and balance on the offensive side of the ball. It seems like you and everyone on this board has decided that because we are losing games, and Joe misses some throws, therefore Joe sucks. On a play by play basis you have to examine what's going on, and some misses passes are Joe's fault, some are the receivers fault, some are wind, etc. For example I'm pretty sure one of Joe's misses passes early on in the Steelers game was a miscue between Crabtree and Joe where Joe thought he'd break his route at the 1st down marker and Crabtree went like a yard or so further - Joe was trying to do what people here want him to , which is throw the ball before the receiver is open. Thing is, that's not as easy as it sounds especially with receivers you don't have tons of experience playing with. Of course there are other instances where Joe throws a bad ball or just misses a little bit because he isn't the most accurate quarterback in the league. There's also the factor that without a decent running game defenses have adjusted and have been playing the pass, knowing our line is a weakness as well. I agree that Lamar can do things with the quality of offensive line we have that Joe can't. But Lamar has his own limitations.

but why are you assuming that we arent taking all those things into account - look around this forum and you'll find tons of nuanced analysis on joe
in fact @Edgar did a great analysis of joe vs the steelers on his youtube channel (as well as numerous other analyses of joe throughout the season looking at both positive and negative plays:

here's the channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0TA7ws9votpsfEshRfHqjQ/videos

if you go back and look around the flacco threads at various points last season you'll see fairly detailed discussions of joe's mechanics and footwork as well as field-reading - in tandem with discussions about the culpability of marty and the other coaches among various other things

it's a bit insulting that you assume we aren't taking into account timing, route running, chemistry, balance as well as things you didnt mention like mechanics, footwork, ball placement, reading the field, playcalling

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Yeah...that's just not logical. You can't just crystallize the truth in such reductionist methods.

Stafford is pretty inconsistent with poor decision making. Idk why you are so high on him. I think you're missing some of the nuance of the way passing works, it takes more than just accurate throwing : timing, route running, chemistry and balance on the offensive side of the ball. It seems like you and everyone on this board has decided that because we are losing games, and Joe misses some throws, therefore Joe sucks. On a play by play basis you have to examine what's going on, and some misses passes are Joe's fault, some are the receivers fault, some are wind, etc. For example I'm pretty sure one of Joe's misses passes early on in the Steelers game was a miscue between Crabtree and Joe where Joe thought he'd break his route at the 1st down marker and Crabtree went like a yard or so further - Joe was trying to do what people here want him to , which is throw the ball before the receiver is open. Thing is, that's not as easy as it sounds especially with receivers you don't have tons of experience playing with. Of course there are other instances where Joe throws a bad ball or just misses a little bit because he isn't the most accurate quarterback in the league. There's also the factor that without a decent running game defenses have adjusted and have been playing the pass, knowing our line is a weakness as well. I agree that Lamar can do things with the quality of offensive line we have that Joe can't. But Lamar has his own limitations.

This isn’t because we lost some games, this is because joe has been doing this since 2013, consistently, no matter how many WRs we add or coordinators we change, nothing changes with joe, he doesn’t get better, he doesn’t make good decisions, he doesn’t play sharp.

So you point out all these “finer points” beyond the arm(btw I haven’t complained about joes arm once) and use that to explain why joe is better than stafford... so tell me why stafford has been able to lead far superior passing offenses and make the playoffs more than joe the past 5 years?

 

[JAAM]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but this is great...

 

[Militant X 1]

But what I’m saying is that lamar didn’t show anything to suggest he won’t be a decent passer. Sidearm passes aren’t some mechanical flaw, it’s an adlib to hit a passing lane that he wouldn’t be able to without adjusting the release point, it’s how you avoid balls getting batted by the front seven, hitting lewis’ helmet was a coincidence and I’m really tired of seeing it brought up, I get it, it was funny, but it’s far from a reason to bash him or downgrade him. And he chose the run so much because the bengals gave him the run for some inexplicable reason, he took what the defense gave him and made exceptional plays and he and Gus carried this team on their legs and lamar made the passes that had to be made in key moments. His decision making was fine aside from maybe 4 plays, the int, the one that was almost picked by the LB, the one where he took the read while the nickel corner was blitzing, and the one where he cut upfield in the red zone instead of scrambling a little wider and got tripped up by geno. I legitimately cannot think of another poor decision made by him.

I have NEVER said that Lamar wouldn't be a decent passer.

 

[Militant X 1]

Yeah...that's just not logical. You can't just crystallize the truth in such reductionist methods.

Stafford is pretty inconsistent with poor decision making. Idk why you are so high on him. I think you're missing some of the nuance of the way passing works, it takes more than just accurate throwing : timing, route running, chemistry and balance on the offensive side of the ball. It seems like you and everyone on this board has decided that because we are losing games, and Joe misses some throws, therefore Joe sucks. On a play by play basis you have to examine what's going on, and some misses passes are Joe's fault, some are the receivers fault, some are wind, etc. For example I'm pretty sure one of Joe's misses passes early on in the Steelers game was a miscue between Crabtree and Joe where Joe thought he'd break his route at the 1st down marker and Crabtree went like a yard or so further - Joe was trying to do what people here want him to , which is throw the ball before the receiver is open. Thing is, that's not as easy as it sounds especially with receivers you don't have tons of experience playing with. Of course there are other instances where Joe throws a bad ball or just misses a little bit because he isn't the most accurate quarterback in the league. There's also the factor that without a decent running game defenses have adjusted and have been playing the pass, knowing our line is a weakness as well. I agree that Lamar can do things with the quality of offensive line we have that Joe can't. But Lamar has his own limitations.

It's not everyone on this board that thinks that Joe sucks. It's a few of us! And, speaking for myself; that was determined for me years ago not just this season. What we're seeing from Joe is what we have seen from Joe for the past few seasons. Nothing upward but a constant downward trend. So, when will all of the excuses being made for Flacco's lack of production begin and end with him?

This cat has had multiple coordinators, QB coaches, new receivers, running backs and tight ends or "weapons" (as many here love to say) and his production has constantly declined. At some point, you have to look at the common denominator-JOE FLACCO!

Everything around him has changed but him!

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I have NEVER said that Lamar wouldn't be a decent passer.

It felt implied, maybe I read it wrong

 

[Militant X 1]

It felt implied, maybe I read it wrong

I never implied that either. You read it wrong.

To say that someone needs to work on their mechanics or to improve as a passer from the pocket doesn't mean that they can't throw. Of course he can throw but that can be further improved on.

 

[allblackraven]

I never implied that either. You read it wrong.

To say that someone needs to work on their mechanics or to improve as a passer from the pocket doesn't mean that they can't throw. Of course he can throw but that can be further improved on.

The real question is - who is really your boy, Lamar or Tyrod?

 

[Militant X 1]

The real question is - who is really your boy, Lamar or Tyrod?

LOL!!!

Well, like Michael and his brother Marcus Vick who are also from my area here in VA, Tyrod also went to and became the starting QB at Virginia Tech, so he will always be my dude. I'll continue to root for Tyrod until he finally decides to hang'em up. But, I like Lamar cause I personally like "dual-threat" QB's and I feel that he will be a good one.

Personally, I don't feel that Tyrod got the massive support that Lamar is getting as a "dual-threat" QB during his time in Baltimore. Of course, Tyrod wasn't drafted #1 overall by the Ravens either so that makes a huge difference. I just don't really think that the Ravens brass or the fanbase was truly open to having that type of QB back then as they are now with Lamar.

It's so ironic for me to see all of this love for Lamar when we already had a "similar" (i.e. running abilities etc.) QB in Tyrod on the roster that received major backlash for all of his deciding to run first while Lamar is being praised for it.

Interesting how things change!

 

[allblackraven]

LOL!!!

Well, like Michael and his brother Marcus Vick who also were the starting QB's for Virginia Tech; Tyrod is from my local area here in VA as well so he will always be my dude. Followed all of those guys since they were in high school. I'll continue to root for Tyrod until he finally decides to hang'em up. But, I like Lamar cause I really like the "dual-threat" QB's. As a Virginia Tech fan, I'm used to seeing those types of QB's (i.e. Michael Vick, Marcus Vick and then Tyrod Taylor-all from my area here in VA).

Personally, I don't feel that Tyrod got the massive support that Lamar is getting as a "dual-threat" QB during his time in Baltimore. Of course, Tyrod wasn't drafted #1 overall by the Ravens either so that makes a huge difference. I just don't really think that the Ravens brass or the fanbase was truly open to having that type of QB back then as they are now with Lamar.

It's so ironic for me to see all of this love for Lamar (and I'm kool with that cause I like the kid as well) when we already had a "similar" (i.e. running abilities etc.) QB in Tyrod on the roster that received major backlash for all of his deciding to run first while Lamar is being praised for it.

Interesting how things change!

Tyrod entered the league 7-8 years too early. You couldn't play like that back when he was rookie.

 

[Tru11]

Luck might be a top 5 one day.

No I wouldn’t take either over Joe. Stafford is garbage. I like Newton, overall maybe he’d edge Joe out but as a pure passer Joe is better.

Luck was top 5 in 2014 and in the MVP discussion.
He is top 5 right now and probably will garner MVP talk and is a lock for comeback player of the year.

Joe flacco best season wont even enter stafford top 5 of best seasons , so if stafford is garbage what exactly is flacco then?

Cam Newton MVP season speaks for itself.
What makes it more impressive is that the players on offense he had that season where a worse group that anything flacco had beside perhaps 2013.
There is also nothing that would suggest that flacco is a better pure passer, so not sure where you base this on.

So who burner account is this or what was your previous account?
Its either a troll account or you are just like tank a flacco fan first ravens fan second.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

He’s had different coordinators and coaching and teams around him and we always struggle. The fallacy everyone here is committing is called confirmation bias. “There’s a problem, and we’ve tried everything else but a different quarterback so that’s the problem”. Except it’s really just the case that yes, every year since the Super Bowl the team especially the offense has been fatally flawed in usually multiple aspects. Joe isn’t Aaron Rodgers and plays in a super tough division so therefore we struggle.

If the goal is we want a Rodgers level qb, awesome I’m all for it. But just because there’s a marginal increase in the pool of competent qb play doesn’t mean that finding a quarterback who will rise to the top among the rest is an easy task. A dynamic we like Lamar can do more with less than Joe can in a lot of ways but I think isn’t much rather emulate the Steelers offense than just build defense and let Lamar basically be Wilson and try and do enough each weak to win. And if the answer is “well let’s buold a good offense around Lamar” well fucking shit what the fuck have we been doing for 5 years wasting time and not trying to build a good offense around Joe? And I mean really try. That’s is my point. If Joe Flacco ends up on a team that builds around him I guarantee he’s going to play well.

Although even with the limited efforts on offense we don’t always struggle. Actually last year when Joe got healthy the offense started clicking.

Never been top 5?

In 2010 after two rough games to start the season Flacco was the second highest ranked quarterback the rest of the season behind Brady.

In 2012 and 2014 Joe was maybe not top 5 but considered top 10.

Btw, Rivers is better than Joe but my point of comparison was Joe could have he success Ben has had and Rivers is having this year if put in similar circumstances.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

Luck was top 5 in 2014 and in the MVP discussion.
He is top 5 right now and probably will garner MVP talk and is a lock for comeback player of the year.

Joe flacco best season wont even enter stafford top 5 of best seasons , so if stafford is garbage what exactly is flacco then?

Cam Newton MVP season speaks for itself.
What makes it more impressive is that the players on offense he had that season where a worse group that anything flacco had beside perhaps 2013.
There is also nothing that would suggest that flacco is a better pure passer, so not sure where you base this on.

So who burner account is this or what was your previous account?
Its either a troll account or you are just like tank a flacco fan first ravens fan second.

*triggered* muh people who disagree with me are scary and trolls


Newton had a year where he played out of his mind. I doubt he’ll have a season like that again. Newton is worse in accuracy than Joe but his mobility is a huge asset in the passing game that Joe doesn’t have. I just don’t like running qbs because history has shown them to fail when it comes to delivering championships. But blah blah new era of football...

 

[3-4ravdef509]

but why are you assuming that we arent taking all those things into account - look around this forum and you'll find tons of nuanced analysis on joe
in fact @Edgar did a great analysis of joe vs the steelers on his youtube channel (as well as numerous other analyses of joe throughout the season looking at both positive and negative plays:

here's the channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC0TA7ws9votpsfEshRfHqjQ/videos

if you go back and look around the flacco threads at various points last season you'll see fairly detailed discussions of joe's mechanics and footwork as well as field-reading - in tandem with discussions about the culpability of marty and the other coaches among various other things

it's a bit insulting that you assume we aren't taking into account timing, route running, chemistry, balance as well as things you didnt mention like mechanics, footwork, ball placement, reading the field, playcalling

Your boys breakdown is garbage. Playing things in super slow motion and only analyzed a couple factors. Mediocre garbage

 

[3-4ravdef509]

Bad throw to Andrews I agree. It sucks Joe missed two wide open guys in the Steelers, that happens in the NFL though. And as injured as Joe happens to be he probably shouldn’t have been playing vs the Steelers.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I never implied that either. You read it wrong.

To say that someone needs to work on their mechanics or to improve as a passer from the pocket doesn't mean that they can't throw. Of course he can throw but that can be further improved on.

Ok then what mechanically does he still need to improve on? I know he needs to come along further but I thought he was a lot further along than I expected and mechanics weren’t part of the issue at all to me. That’s what I was trying to ask instead of saying you implied he can’t throw, i definitely read and responded wrong lol

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Bad throw to Andrews I agree. It sucks Joe missed two wide open guys in the Steelers, that happens in the NFL though. And as injured as Joe happens to be he probably shouldn’t have been playing vs the Steelers.

“That happens in the nfl” but it has happened far too often for far too long with joe.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

“That happens in the nfl” but it has happened far too often for far too long with joe.

Idk, I’ve noticed more dropped passes, lazy routes and shitty line play than Joe not seeing open receivers.

 

[RavensMania]

He’s had different coordinators and coaching and teams around him and we always struggle. The fallacy everyone here is committing is called confirmation bias. “There’s a problem, and we’ve tried everything else but a different quarterback so that’s the problem”. Except it’s really just the case that yes, every year since the Super Bowl the team especially the offense has been fatally flawed in usually multiple aspects. Joe isn’t Aaron Rodgers and plays in a super tough division so therefore we struggle.

If the goal is we want a Rodgers level qb, awesome I’m all for it. But just because there’s a marginal increase in the pool of competent qb play doesn’t mean that finding a quarterback who will rise to the top among the rest is an easy task. A dynamic we like Lamar can do more with less than Joe can in a lot of ways but I think isn’t much rather emulate the Steelers offense than just build defense and let Lamar basically be Wilson and try and do enough each weak to win. And if the answer is “well let’s buold a good offense around Lamar” well fucking shit what the fuck have we been doing for 5 years wasting time and not trying to build a good offense around Joe? And I mean really try. That’s is my point. If Joe Flacco ends up on a team that builds around him I guarantee he’s going to play well.

Although even with the limited efforts on offense we don’t always struggle. Actually last year when Joe got healthy the offense started clicking.

Never been top 5?

In 2010 after two rough games to start the season Flacco was the second highest ranked quarterback the rest of the season behind Brady.

In 2012 and 2014 Joe was maybe not top 5 but considered top 10.

Btw, Rivers is better than Joe but my point of comparison was Joe could have he success Ben has had and Rivers is having this year if put in similar circumstances.

Lol, go back and check the teams we played at the end of last season, when we started winning games.

 

[Tru11]

*triggered* muh people who disagree with me are scary and trolls


Newton had a year where he played out of his mind. I doubt he’ll have a season like that again. Newton is worse in accuracy than Joe but his mobility is a huge asset in the passing game that Joe doesn’t have. I just don’t like running qbs because history has shown them to fail when it comes to delivering championships. But blah blah new era of football...

Flacco has never had a year where he played out of his mind.