DC: Mike Macdonald

[UPennChem]

Just wanted to have this thread in case we want to discuss MM, our defensive schemes/style, or just the defense as a whole.

I'll be the first to say I was incredibly uninspired by what the defense was doing the first 6 weeks of the season. At my lowest point I said if MM can't turn this defense around by the end of the season we have to consider moving on.

If we look a little deeper into what may have been happening with the luxury of more data and hindsight, I think we can point to a few things.

1) This was a first time NFL DC implementing a new system. That means for everyone, including the coordinator, they were in their rookie year of this system and way of practicing and playing. I don't think it's too extreme because MM isn't doing things radically different, but this feels like a more modern defense.

2) We really relied on rookies immediately due to injuries. The combination of JAD, Pepe, Hamilton, and a first year Brandon Stephens, plus a coming off an ACL Peters was just really not great. This was an incredibly inexperienced secondary that was making tons of mistakes. So while it was embarrassing to see your defense blow 3 double digit leads in 6 games, there were a lot of player issues at play.

3) Addition of new players like Williams, Fuller, and Pierce also need time to adjust and learn a totally new system. Feel bad that Fuller and Pierce were lost for the year. I think Fuller would have thrived in that CB3 role and Pierce was playing really well.

4) There was literally no one playing OLB and Oweh has still yet to come on. This was a dumpster fire no DC should deal with.

5) Bynes was simply not good and PQ hadn't turned it on yet. It's also not so crazy to think that PQ playing better also coincides with adding JPP, getting Houston and Bowser back, and having the secondary tighten up. Then you bring in RS to replace Bynes and PQ is really going nuts.

So we were hard on him for sure and honestly rightfully so. But when he was able to put his rookies in the best spots, when EDC actually gave him pass rushers, when RS was folded in, everyone started playing at a higher level and the defense looks like a Baltimore Ravens defense of old.

Let's see how far he can take us. Can't wait to reintroduce Williams and bring in Ojabo.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Yeah my thoughts were that if the trend continues then there’s a big problem that needs fixing in MM’s defense, and I fully acknowledged peters, hamilton, and I believe Clark blowing a lot of plays.

Now, different story. We have a defense that lets players talents shine all over the field, and a lot of these talents weren’t there early on, guys were injured or playing like shit for various reasons. I felt hamilton, Ro, and queen were gonna be curtains across the field, and I feel that is gonna make bowser really dangerous when he begins to get up to speed. I could NOT have predicted how good Houston and JPP and Calais were gonna be though. These senior citizens ass mfs are out here living their best lives, they tryna retire with a ring and a GOAT tier defense and go play shuffleboard on a cruise ship for 2 weeks, I salute these kings.

 

[RavensMania]

For me it was at a point of no return and it's amazing how that has turned around to this extreme. Giving up 2 double digit leads was too much to take for my health! I don't count the 3rd double digit lead on the defense. That was purely on the offense and I blame Lamar for that loss against the Giants.

MM has turned this defense around and yes health has played a role in it, but it's much more than that. I agree with UPennChem that being a rookie DC played a role, but I also believe he has learned how to use the players to their skill set.

 

[RL52TheGreatest]

Looking back, I think the blown leads were the best thing that could have happened to this defense and Mike. It was his "Welcome to the NFL" moment as a DC and, so far, he's responded accordingly. The defense seems to be communicating better, tackling has improved greatly across the board, we're forcing turnovers left and right, etc. This defense is starting to look DOMINANT and I really love what I've been seeing on the field in recent weeks.

 

[gtalk12]

Looking back, I think the blown leads were the best thing that could have happened to this defense and Mike. It was his "Welcome to the NFL" moment as a DC and, so far, he's responded accordingly. The defense seems to be communicating better, tackling has improved greatly across the board, we're forcing turnovers left and right, etc. This defense is starting to look DOMINANT and I really love what I've been seeing on the field in recent weeks.

I think the blown leads had alot to do with the fact that the offense was not sustaining drives to give some of these guys a breather given the fact we had alot of guys go down. Miami game

 

[UPennChem]

Spent all this time rationalizing the early season collapses. Thought they'd be largely behind us outside of maybe a tough divisional game. Then this week we lose ONLY Kyle Hamilton and the whole thing goes to shit? That doesn't make sense.

 

[RavensMania]

no it doesn't, but the defense is vastly improved from the beginning of the season. That being said, this let down was bad. Lets see how the team responds.

 

[Dom McRaven]

@29BmoreBird22 , what do you think are the reason or reasons why this defense collapse the way they do. It's not like we have an overhaul of new players. Is it his zone scheme in the 4th? Is it mental?

No joke, I actually didn't think we were gonna blow it on Sunday after we got the strip sack that they luckily recovered. However, once they got past midfield, I started getting hella nervous.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

@29BmoreBird22 , what do you think are the reason or reasons why this defense collapse the way they do. It's not like we have an overhaul of new players. Is it his zone scheme in the 4th? Is it mental?

No joke, I actually didn't think we were gonna blow it on Sunday after we got the strip sack that they luckily recovered. However, once they got past midfield, I started getting hella nervous.

Marcus peters isn’t closing out games like he used to

Humphrey was injured

Hamilton is a very key player

However… we seem to just suck right now

 

[RavensMania]

Marcus peters isn’t closing out games like he used to

Humphrey was injured

Hamilton is a very key player

However… we seem to just suck right now

Peters has been second guessing himself and it's noticeable. If he can come back on a cheap contract or cheaper contract I'd extend him.

Defensively we have been playing much better as of late outside of the 4th quarter vs the Jags. I'm hoping that is an anomaly.

 

[UPennChem]

Peters has been second guessing himself and it's noticeable. If he can come back on a cheap contract or cheaper contract I'd extend him.

Defensively we have been playing much better as of late outside of the 4th quarter vs the Jags. I'm hoping that is an anomaly.

I think Peters is one of those guys that will probably only be back to 100% following 2 whole years. Hopefully by next season he can be much stronger

 

[Dom McRaven]

Speaking of MP, I always thought the heated exchange between him and Harbaugh was overhyped. Here's MP talking about this in this quote.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Spent all this time rationalizing the early season collapses. Thought they'd be largely behind us outside of maybe a tough divisional game. Then this week we lose ONLY Kyle Hamilton and the whole thing goes to shit? That doesn't make sense.

I mean I kind of look at it similar to Miami, which is that the defense wasn't total shit for the whole game. A couple mistakes, BUT...

First three quarters of that game... defense gave up 10 points and 168 yards of total offense. That's really, really, really good against a top 10 offense. Had 7 drives in that period, and we had four drives that went 3 and out, and one drive that allowed only 25 yards. So that's 5 of 7 drives keeping your opponent out of scoring range.

Just collapsed in the 4th quarter (again). That's sort of the "legacy" so far. Can look at pretty much every single game this year and the defense looks very strong in the first three quarters (maybe Buffalo being the exception).

There's a couple generic things that concern me a bit:
1. I think MM is a little too quick to drop into these shell coverages with a lead and give up a bunch of yardage. I expected the "bend but don't break" technique to be utilized more, as pretty much every team does it now, but we're breaking and breaking a lot. So if you're going to allow the team to get yardage in front of you, you better be damn good in the RZ, and we haven't been.
So either we need to clamp down in the RZ, or need to be slightly more aggressive with a lead and put your foot on their throat.
2. I'm trying to decide who we "really are". I expected our defense to improve, because there's a window in the middle of the season where we're playing inferior offenses and, mostly, inferior QBs. Had a 4/5 game stretch where you're playing Jones, Brissett, Dalton and Baker. It shouldn't be super difficult to look good against those teams.
The good news is I loved the way our D played against Cincy, and I generally liked the way it played against TB.

I just find myself being far less concerned with the D because a) I think they've got the personnel to be top 10 and b) they're getting healthier. And I like the schematic approaches from this team better than I liked Wink's. In modern NFL, you need DC's who can be multiple in coverage schemes, not just in blitz packages.

 

[UPennChem]

I mean I kind of look at it similar to Miami, which is that the defense wasn't total shit for the whole game. A couple mistakes, BUT...

First three quarters of that game... defense gave up 10 points and 168 yards of total offense. That's really, really, really good against a top 10 offense. Had 7 drives in that period, and we had four drives that went 3 and out, and one drive that allowed only 25 yards. So that's 5 of 7 drives keeping your opponent out of scoring range.

Just collapsed in the 4th quarter (again). That's sort of the "legacy" so far. Can look at pretty much every single game this year and the defense looks very strong in the first three quarters (maybe Buffalo being the exception).

There's a couple generic things that concern me a bit:
1. I think MM is a little too quick to drop into these shell coverages with a lead and give up a bunch of yardage. I expected the "bend but don't break" technique to be utilized more, as pretty much every team does it now, but we're breaking and breaking a lot. So if you're going to allow the team to get yardage in front of you, you better be damn good in the RZ, and we haven't been.
So either we need to clamp down in the RZ, or need to be slightly more aggressive with a lead and put your foot on their throat.
2. I'm trying to decide who we "really are". I expected our defense to improve, because there's a window in the middle of the season where we're playing inferior offenses and, mostly, inferior QBs. Had a 4/5 game stretch where you're playing Jones, Brissett, Dalton and Baker. It shouldn't be super difficult to look good against those teams.
The good news is I loved the way our D played against Cincy, and I generally liked the way it played against TB.

I just find myself being far less concerned with the D because a) I think they've got the personnel to be top 10 and b) they're getting healthier. And I like the schematic approaches from this team better than I liked Wink's. In modern NFL, you need DC's who can be multiple in coverage schemes, not just in blitz packages.

I do think you hit the nail on the head though. He is far too quick to play very soft D in the 4th quarter. Imo he should call the more aggressive gameplan in the 4th and if they beat you over the top at least they're scoring quickly and not doing what they've been doing which is dunking it up the field taking so much time off the clock and being the last to score.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I do think you hit the nail on the head though. He is far too quick to play very soft D in the 4th quarter. Imo he should call the more aggressive gameplan in the 4th and if they beat you over the top at least they're scoring quickly and not doing what they've been doing which is dunking it up the field taking so much time off the clock and being the last to score.

Well, to be clear, getting beat over the top is really unacceptable. Like he'll get roasted and likely fired for that. The objective isn't to give up points quickly, especially when, with this offense, that could be the end of the game, because there's no reason to think this offense can just go down the field and score at will if they have to.

I think he can just play more "normalized" coverages. Since the Miami game, we're not getting beat deep that often, and that's not just because we're dropping 20 yards off the ball every play.

 

[UPennChem]

Well, to be clear, getting beat over the top is really unacceptable. Like he'll get roasted and likely fired for that. The objective isn't to give up points quickly, especially when, with this offense, that could be the end of the game, because there's no reason to think this offense can just go down the field and score at will if they have to.

I think he can just play more "normalized" coverages. Since the Miami game, we're not getting beat deep that often, and that's not just because we're dropping 20 yards off the ball every play.

I'm not advocating for being beaten of the top. However it's much better to as you said play more normalized coverages that make it difficult on the opposing offense. Try and get them off the field. If they beat you, at least let it be fast because as you've seen in all 4 loses, if you decide in the 4th quarter to give them the entire possession for the quarter and you're giving up all those points (not been good in the redzone) you're not even giving yourself the chance to score again.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

@29BmoreBird22 , what do you think are the reason or reasons why this defense collapse the way they do. It's not like we have an overhaul of new players. Is it his zone scheme in the 4th? Is it mental?

No joke, I actually didn't think we were gonna blow it on Sunday after we got the strip sack that they luckily recovered. However, once they got past midfield, I started getting hella nervous.

I don't have access to All-22, but someone posted it somewhere on Reddit and it looks like MM tries to simulate pressure and cause confusion and has players moving a ton post snap, but this doesn't work if you've got backup level players and guys just not playing well.

You don't need to do a zone blitz with the corner dropping if he can't hit his landmark. You don't need to rotate the safeties post snap if they're struggling to hit their depth.

I think it's a situation of getting too cute and causing players to be tasked with doing too much.

 

[Cloud]

The defense is far from the problem. This offense continues to put it's defense in bad situations

 

[Dom McRaven]

The defense is far from the problem. This offense continues to put it's defense in bad situations

Yeah, I won't say "far from the problem." Dolphins game and Jags game come into mind. For 3 quarters, they played very well in both games. All of a sudden, it's like they forgot how to play. Heck, if it wasn't for Lamar's and Tucker's heroics, we would've lost to the Bengals as well since the defense gave up the go-ahead TD late.

To me, this is on MM. This defense doesn't lack talent. The pass-rush has gotten better since Bowser returned. The run defense continues to be, at worst, solid. I refer to the post directly above yours as some causes of the problem.

 

[UPennChem]

Didn't result in a loss but 5 times the opponent has had the ball last while losing. 4 times they've won. Today with a better kicker its 5.

23 seconds guys. And against literally the worst or second worst offense in the league.

Totally unacceptable