Offense for Remainder of Season

[3-4ravdef509]

So let’s keep this thread focused more on the offense holistically and less about what quarterback we prefer, quarterback break down development etc.

After listening to Harbaugh’s press conference today, it seems that Joe will be ready to dress for games going forward. Harbaugh said that Joe is, and I’m quoting, too good of a player to not play. Might mean something, might mean nothing other than that Joe will be the back up.

Those who have seen me posting over the past couple weeks know that I am skeptical and critical of Jackson and more of a Flacco fan. That said Jackson is electrifying and fun to watch, and I can’t argue that the offense seems to move the chains more consistently and hold onto the ball longer with Jackson in at quarterback.

But to give our team the best chance to win, what should we do moving forward? Jackson is easily the most dynamic offense of player we have and I’m not a fan of keeping him off the field to be honest. Even if Joe becomes the starter again, I would be disappointed if I didn’t see Jackson on the field at least 30% of the time.

Jackson is dynamic, electrifying but he’s raw and inexperienced. Joe has seen everything in this league and is the better thrower But the offense wasn’t doing as good when he was playing because of issues on the offensive line and the running game which Jackson helps to mask or elevate.

I think we should play both 50/50 going forward, maybe a slight lean towards Jackson. I think playing Jackson for maybe 60%-ish of snaps/drives provide some consistency while mixing Joe in provides a bit of a change up and ability to move down the field quickly if need be. And of course both can play on the field at once but I’d like to see Joe not just stand there, even if it’s just a good show or something.

I completely understand anyone having the view that Jackson should remain the starter and take most of or all the snaps but I’m curious to see if anyone thinks similar to me either right out the back or after listening to what I have to say and thinking about it. Vote for what you think and let’s be respectful and again keep the dialogue and chat focused on the offense as a whole and not get too nit picky into the quarterback comparison from a preferential perspective.

 

[RavensMania]

I voted for Joe to back up Lamar and take him out in case of injury, because i feel these games are important for Lamar moving forward and as we develop lamar our team is still playing well and keeping the defense fresh. As you said we move the ball better with LJ behind center. I just feel our running game will stall with Flacco under center even with a different RB crew due to the offensive line.

 

[DeVito52]

Excuse me? Where’s the “start RG3 he’s the best qb on the roster” option?

 

[3-4ravdef509]

I voted for Joe to back up Lamar and take him out in case of injury, because i feel these games are important for Lamar moving forward and as we develop lamar our team is still playing well and keeping the defense fresh. As you said we move the ball better with LJ behind center. I just feel our running game will stall with Flacco under center even with a different RB crew due to the offensive line.

I don’t understand why you are so sure it would stall, respectfully. I’m not sure it would last the whole game with Joe and be as effective but I think the line is also playing better, Brown is now in at tackle and the threat of the pass makes the run game better too. I think if Lamar is in and then Flacco comes in and the defense thinks it’s pass, you read the defense and catch them sleeping by switching to a run play, because they think Flacco is likely only being sent in to pass

 

[3-4ravdef509]

Excuse me? Where’s the “start RG3 he’s the best qb on the roster” option?

I almost added it... lol

 

[DeVito52]

I almost added it... lol

Deadass that will be my vote

 

[rossihunter2]

for me you play Lamar and you dont worry about bringing joe in - the ball control offence that we run with him schematically does a number of things:

1. The zone-reads and threat of the Lamar keeper creates space for our inside runners by creating mismatches inside - hence Dixon and Edwards going off (it's true that their style of running is probably more effective than Collins in the Flacco offence too but with Lamar, the zone read and RPO offence it's on steroids)
2. The increased running capabilities shortens the game which itself does 2 very specific things: 1) It reduces the possessions in the game which reduces the impact of any high-powered offences that we play against and 2) It keeps our defence rested and the impact of that rest has been self-evident in the improving defensive performances - they look fresher, they're creating more pressure, the coverage has been (generally) better in both man and zone
3. It slows the outside pass rush on every down: with the option offence threat it forces the edge defenders to attack the OL differently which holds them outside so they cant crash in towards the qb or it leaves them out of position in pursuit in the running game - and all that mental energy is tiring as well as the extra physical energy placed on the defenders by having to adjust mid-rush/edge-setting... Justin Houston is actually great as both a pass rusher and run defender but he was nowhere really in that game - and we took advantage of Dee Ford as a non-high-level edge defender vs the run
4. The option value gives us more options on first down for positive plays based on what the defence gives us - as long as we continue to trust Lamar to make the right read then we're very rarely gonna be in worse than 1st and 10
5. The keying on the run game creates even bigger holes off play-action or a moved pocket for lamar to exploit

on top of all that, and despite the loss to KC, this team has momentum and a lot of belief and it would feel a lot like the rug being pulled out from beneath them to change the qb after being 3-1 since lamar took over

and on top of those above reasons you have the extra benefit of lamar getting more and more live reps in high pressure situations in big games in the cold weather when its a big deal - that's going to exponentially accelerate his development relative to what we would have been expecting before the season started

joe's clearly not a bad player but im not sure what value he has coming in for parts of a game when lamar is healthy - i mean the only real situation id see joe potentially coming in is in a passing only situation in a critical 2 minute drill to win or tie a game at the end

but for the most part i think on a purely situational basis this offence is way more effective with lamar behind centre and creates more matchup problems

 

[DeVito52]

Tbh I don’t think the run game would be bad now with joe - a huge part of the run game sucking was on Collins. With Dixon healthy, he should see the majority of the snaps and I think our run game would be fine with him and joe. Not as good as with Lamar, but still.

 

[RavensMania]

I don’t understand why you are so sure it would stall, respectfully. I’m not sure it would last the whole game with Joe and be as effective but I think the line is also playing better, Brown is now in at tackle and the threat of the pass makes the run game better too. I think if Lamar is in and then Flacco comes in and the defense thinks it’s pass, you read the defense and catch them sleeping by switching to a run play, because they think Flacco is likely only being sent in to pass

Just my take on the games that have been played. Yes there are different players, but the players change every year. Flacco under the helm and he passes the ball 45 times, although we probably win no matter who is playing next week.

A big part of the running game is the defense having to take into account where Lamar Jackson is on every given play. This won't be the case if Flacco is playing. I like Flacco, but feel LJ gives us a better chance to win.

 

[rossihunter2]

I don’t understand why you are so sure it would stall, respectfully. I’m not sure it would last the whole game with Joe and be as effective but I think the line is also playing better, Brown is now in at tackle and the threat of the pass makes the run game better too. I think if Lamar is in and then Flacco comes in and the defense thinks it’s pass, you read the defense and catch them sleeping by switching to a run play, because they think Flacco is likely only being sent in to pass

it's the option value of the zone-read that creates so much space inside - we get an interior overload because defenders pursue to the outside to cut off lamar's keeper and when they overload to stop the run the edge guy has squeeze inside otherwise there's still a gap between the tackle and guard for the rb to fit through and if that defender squeezes then lamar has a huge hole on the outside if he can get around the edge defender - and if you get any blocking outside from tight ends pulling or receivers and any OL who get into L2 then you've got a big gainer

none of those running options are available with joe - the holes are smaller and the tackles are more direct - lamar jackson creates arm tackles for rbs because he splits the attention and changes the way LBs have their weight with Joe he's no threat so you've got all 11 defenders acting as missiles to the rb and the football

the running game might improve from before Joe went out but it's not going to be even remotely close to as effective as it is with Lamar in

 

[RavensMania]

Tbh I don’t think the run game would be bad now with joe - a huge part of the run game sucking was on Collins. With Dixon healthy, he should see the majority of the snaps and I think our run game would be fine with him and joe. Not as good as with Lamar, but still.

No question, it will be a little better with Orlando Brown at right tackle and Dixon and Edwards in the game, but remember the defense won't have to take into account LJ's whereabouts.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

for me you play Lamar and you dont worry about bringing joe in - the ball control offence that we run with him schematically does a number of things:

1. The zone-reads and threat of the Lamar keeper creates space for our inside runners by creating mismatches inside - hence Dixon and Edwards going off (it's true that their style of running is probably more effective than Collins in the Flacco offence too but with Lamar, the zone read and RPO offence it's on steroids)
2. The increased running capabilities shortens the game which itself does 2 very specific things: 1) It reduces the possessions in the game which reduces the impact of any high-powered offences that we play against and 2) It keeps our defence rested and the impact of that rest has been self-evident in the improving defensive performances - they look fresher, they're creating more pressure, the coverage has been (generally) better in both man and zone
3. It slows the outside pass rush on every down: with the option offence threat it forces the edge defenders to attack the OL differently which holds them outside so they cant crash in towards the qb or it leaves them out of position in pursuit in the running game - and all that mental energy is tiring as well as the extra physical energy placed on the defenders by having to adjust mid-rush/edge-setting... Justin Houston is actually great as both a pass rusher and run defender but he was nowhere really in that game - and we took advantage of Dee Ford as a non-high-level edge defender vs the run
4. The option value gives us more options on first down for positive plays based on what the defence gives us - as long as we continue to trust Lamar to make the right read then we're very rarely gonna be in worse than 1st and 10

on top of all that, and despite the loss to KC, this team has momentum and a lot of belief and it would feel a lot like the rug being pulled out from beneath them to change the qb after being 3-1 since lamar took over

and on top of those above reasons you have the extra benefit of lamar getting more and more live reps in high pressure situations in big games in the cold weather when its a big deal - that's going to exponentially accelerate his development relative to what we would have been expecting before the season started

joe's clearly not a bad player but im not sure what value he has coming in for parts of a game when lamar is healthy - i mean the only real situation id see joe potentially coming in is in a passing only situation in a critical 2 minute drill to win or tie a game at the end

but for the most part i think on a purely situational basis this offence is way more effective with lamar behind centre and creates more matchup problems

Well for one, controlling the pace and slowing the game down is great but sometimes you want orneed to score quick. I’m just saying, here’s one example of a game plan - start Joe and play no huddle for first two or three drives , maybe bringing in Lamar on 3rd down and medium/short. Getting a quick lead puts pressure on the other team and that also helps the defense - then switch to the Lamar led offense to maintain the lead only bringing Joe back for situational plays in the game plan and maybe in two minute drills at the end of the half or game if need be.

 

[RavensMania]

it's the option value of the zone-read that creates so much space inside - we get an interior overload because defenders pursue to the outside to cut off lamar's keeper and when they overload to stop the run the edge guy has squeeze inside otherwise there's still a gap between the tackle and guard for the rb to fit through and if that defender squeezes then lamar has a huge hole on the outside if he can get around the edge defender - and if you get any blocking outside from tight ends pulling or receivers and any OL who get into L2 then you've got a big gainer

none of those running options are available with joe - the holes are smaller and the tackles are more direct - lamar jackson creates arm tackles for rbs because he splits the attention and changes the way LBs have their weight with Joe he's no threat so you've got all 11 defenders acting as missiles to the rb and the football

the running game might improve from before Joe went out but it's not going to be even remotely close to as effective as it is with Lamar in

In 3rd and 4 or 5, I am so confident we will be getting a first down. It's an amazing feeling to have.

 

[DeVito52]

No question, it will be a little better with Orlando Brown at right tackle and Dixon and Edwards in the game, but remember the defense won't have to take into account LJ's whereabouts.

Which is why I said still not as good with Lamar

 

[3-4ravdef509]

No question, it will be a little better with Orlando Brown at right tackle and Dixon and Edwards in the game, but remember the defense won't have to take into account LJ's whereabouts.

True but they will have to account for play action and Joe’s increased threat to pass and go deep

 

[RavensMania]

Which is why I said still not as good with Lamar

sorry, I missed that

 

[3-4ravdef509]

In 3rd and 4 or 5, I am so confident we will be getting a first down. It's an amazing feeling to have.

I agree with this, which is actually something I’d like to continue even if Joe comes in for drives, putting Lamar in on 3rd down.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

Which is why I said still not as good with Lamar

Right, we all agree the running game is better wih Lamar but I don’t think it’s a situation where the running game would just flat out suck with Joe in.

 

[RavensMania]

Right, we all agree the running game is better wih Lamar but I don’t think it’s a situation where the running game would just flat out suck with Joe in.

this is yet to be seen, but it's quite possible it could improve with Dixon, Edwards and Montgomery, vs. Collins and Buck. The key is getting Skura and Hurst to run block and they are awful run blockers.

Lamar for the most part has disguised a huge weakness on the team.

 

[rossihunter2]

True but they will have to account for play action and Joe’s increased threat to pass and go deep

except teams have shown they dont really fear that - they double john brown and take away a significant deep fear by sending safety help towards Brown

and because of the better running game with lamar the play action is more effective albeit there is something to be said for the playaction coming out of under centre rather than shotgun

i think more likely our improved running game makes play action more effective for both qbs but im not sure the running game significantly threatens defences with joe on the field and without that threat i dont think defences worry about it in the same way they do with lamar