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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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cobrajet said:
I agree with you, I just read it and it may be coverfire to fire Rosenstien. I also think this memo may end up backfiring on the Republicans.
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The memo clearly states that the FISA warrant was obtained thru the Fusion GPS document which were full of lies and full of unproven allegations and this was paid for by the DNC with a papertrail. The FISA judge was completely lied to about how this document was attained. He wasn't told about the DNC payments or GPS fusion but the work was strictly done by the FBI. Read the 4th amendment. A clear violation. The DNC.FBI and DOJ tried to alter the outcome of the election by trying to link Trump to Russia falsely. This should be extremely alarming to anybody that the DOJ and FBI were working strictly for political purposes. I could look at it as coup attempt. Did you read any of the text between Strozk and his girlfriend. He was the one involved in the Flynn investigation and was with the Mueller team and obviously hates Trump. Or how about Bruce Ohr a top FBI agent who's wife worked for Fusion GPS and he had secret meetings with Steele the British agent. Mueller's investigation could all be based on lies. What do they got?? Its been how long now?? Its not coverfire to fire Rosenstein. This is gonna be a fish fry.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/read-the-full-text-of-the-nunes-memo/552191/
 
rossihunter2 said:
ive seen some analysis of the language and the way the memo moves through points and allegations and at most they are insinuating things by making some leaps of logic that dont necessarily scan and it makes you wonder what's missing - this memo release really makes Nunes look like an absolute idiot

there was a time 2-3 days ago where i was worried about this memo but this is laughable - all this buildup for something that is more self-harming than harmful for the democrats at this point

it's so useless and unworthy that it's almost not worth the other facts being "leaked"...
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Yet Democrats fought tooth and nail and knew what was in this memo but go ahead and keep thinking what you thinking.
 
Willbacker said:
Yet Democrats fought tooth and nail and knew what was in this memo but go ahead and keep thinking what you thinking.
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they fought tooth and nail, by both their own accounts and the fbi to get the whole story out rather than 4 cherry picked (and let's be honest fairly sketchy) pages out of 50
 
rossihunter2 said:
they fought tooth and nail, by both their own accounts and the fbi to get the whole story out rather than 4 cherry picked (and let's be honest fairly sketchy) pages out of 50
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Then lets put the whole thing out there then. Did you disagree with anything I told Cobrajet cuz all that is documented?
 
Willbacker said:
The memo clearly states that the FISA warrant was obtained thru the Fusion GPS document which were full of lies and full of unproven allegations and this was paid for by the DNC with a papertrail. The FISA judge was completely lied to about how this document was attained. He wasn't told about the DNC payments or GPS fusion but the work was strictly done by the FBI. Read the 4th amendment. A clear violation. The DNC.FBI and DOJ tried to alter the outcome of the election by trying to link Trump to Russia falsely. This should be extremely alarming to anybody that the DOJ and FBI were working strictly for political purposes. I could look at it as coup attempt. Did you read any of the text between Strozk and his girlfriend. He was the one involved in the Flynn investigation and was with the Mueller team and obviously hates Trump. Or how about Bruce Ohr a top FBI agent who's wife worked for Fusion GPS and he had secret meetings with Steele the British agent. Mueller's investigation could all be based on lies. What do they got?? Its been how long now?? Its not coverfire to fire Rosenstein. This is gonna be a fish fry.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/02/read-the-full-text-of-the-nunes-memo/552191/
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I don’t think that Trump is going to be sitting in a courtroom in front of a Judge facing a jail sentence, so I don’t know if “the fruit from the poisonous tree” applies. If Trump was facing a jury trial then yes, if the source of the evidence is tainted then anything gained from it is also tainted. I have not read the text messages, so I can’t speak to whether he hates Trump, but you can’t just stack an investigation with people who like the suspect. If that were the case, I would never have been allowed to conduct investigations and write warrants on drug dealers, rapists, robbers, and murderers. I have serious issue with the FBI withholding key facts to the Judge who signed the FISA warrant and I think it does hurt the FBI, but I am hearing that Carter Page was under investigation since 2013, so I need to have more information and facts before I can make a judgement.
 
Willbacker said:
Chrissakes its in the memo!!
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the memo literally proves nothing illegal happened... it alleges stuff happened but doesnt prove anything at all...
the memo doesnt really add anything to the discussion of whether the FBI had the right amount of evidence to support the underlying FISA application - all the FBI had to do was prove that Page was an agent for a foreign entity (and he's been on their radar since 2013 for approaches by russian agents far pre-dating the trump campaign) - that's literally all the legal justification they needed (i mean technically its not actually illegal for them to rely on partisan sources either but there's no actual evidence that the steele dossier was the basis for them getting the FISA)

beyond that much of the arguments made are contrary to each other - there is the idea that the surveillance of carter page is a direct assault on the trump campaign which means steele's anti-trump leanings were inappropriate evidence (if they were key evidence at all) yet the trump campaign has repeatedly distanced itself from Page - also important to note that some of the allegations in the dossier have turned out to be correct

the FBI relies on sources with axes to grind all the time - people typically don’t go to the authorities with damaging information about people they like - the key question in an application like this isn’t whether the source liked the target; it’s whether the specific claims they’re making are credible. The memo doesn’t address this at all...

the memo doesn’t ever substantiate core assertions about political bias on the FBI’s part. The memo’s overall method of argument is to imply something suspicious without asserting malfeasance outright.

For example, the memo repeatedly notes that the DOJ knew that “political actors” were involved in the financing the Steele dossier. It implies that the FBI knew they were Democrats and chose to ignore it.

But that’s never clearly stated, and for good reason. The firm that employed Steele was initially contracted by a conservative publication...

And the memo's only real aim, it seems, is to try and link this faulty evidence to the Mueller investigation and yet the end of the memo itself undermines all of that... the memo admits, crucially, that the Trump-Russia investigation originated with Papadopoulos’s misbehavior, not Page’s. “The Papadopoulos information,” the memo says, “triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016.”

so to suggest that the Russia investigation is potentially based on lies is pretty fallacious - the only thing in the memo that seems to criticise the FBI here is the Strzok texts but we already know the information on papadopolous is true because he's admitted to lying (probably to get off with a lighter charge - i still think he was probably wearing a wire that helped get flynn)

anyway the TL;DR is that i stand by my statement that the memo is a whole lot of unsubstantiated conjecture or worse its complete partisan trash
 
The Nunes Memo is one of the biggest political nothing burgers in recent memory. It's incredible how incompetent the GOP is. All they did by picking this fight is make themselves look worse.
 
The Raven said:
The Nunes Memo is one of the biggest political nothing burgers in recent memory. It's incredible how incompetent the GOP is. All they did by picking this fight is make themselves look worse.
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I find it funny though how the Democrats and Comey have said that exact same (nothing burger) thing yet all I have heard all night long on CNN and MSNBC is how this Memo exposed sources and put people at risk. There is nothing in that Memo that exposed sources and puts anyone in jeopardy. I don’t think that narrative is fair to scream about. I am sure Carter Page already knew he was being investigated. I guess everyone has to make their own judgement on whether the FBI using the Steele Dossier to continue their investigation on Page was really a ruse to spy on Trump. Not revealing all the details and background of the Steele Dossier to the FISC to continue the warrant for surveillance, when we all know the Dossier was put together for political reasons is a big deal. It does hurt the image of the FBI. We also don’t know yet whether the FBI expanded the scope of their surveillance, when the warrant never really gave them the authority to conduct.uI can make arguments for not releasing the Memo and arguments for releasing it. Everyone on both sides of the fence is going to have their opinions on whether releasing the Memo was right or wrong. Until I know the full details on Carter Page and his compete dealings with Trump, and if the FBI went beyond their scope of authority the FISA warrant gave them, I want to hold off on my judgement of the release of the Memo. Until this investigation is complete we do not know if they are going to find that there is enough evidence that Trump is involved in any wrongdoing. I can’t say whether the investigation is being dragged out for political reasons or whether they are just being methodical. I don’t know whether Trump is just fighting the FBI because he knows he is innocent of the charges and he is tired of his name being dragged in the mud everyday in the Media, this just being an attempt to delegitimize him winning this past election, or whether he is trying to obstruct justice. I don’t personally believe just asking someone “whose side are you on?” is enough for an obstruction of justice charge but that is my personal opinion and I suspect if they try to take down Trump on just that alone, it is going to set off a serious firestorm in this country. Even most liberal analysts on CNN admit they can’t make a good case that putting out this Memo is an attempt to obstruct justice.
 
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Sledge Hammer said:
Similar to trump Russia allegations
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Do you even pay attention? Let me break it down.

- Appointed Tillerson, an oil tycoon with extensive ties to Russian business, as secretary of state.
- Trump ally Sessions met twice with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. and lied about it. (Why?)
- Trump appointed as Nnational security adviser Mike Flynn, who has appeared on and paid by Russian propaganda TV and has lied about contacts with Russian ambassador.
- Trump himself gave classified information to the same ambassador.
- Like Tillerson, Trump has extensive business dealings in Russia, including a new Trump Tower in Moscow that he sought during the campaign, and
- Paul Manafort, a campaign adviser to Trump, has made a lot of business deals with Russian officials and Ukrainian businessmen close to Putin,
- Jared Kushner has also met with Russian ambassador.
- Kushner and Don Jr corresponded and met with a Russian who said they had dirt on Hillary, then they lied about it, then Trump himself wrote the statement when they got caught.
- Steve Bannon himself has said that all the ties relate to money laundering

That's just the tip of the iceberg and all I have time for before I go to work. Here's a link for more: https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...ies-chart-flynn-page-manafort-sessions-214868.

Stick to working out and fast twitch muscle fibers kid. You're out of your element here.
 
The Raven said:
Do you even pay attention? Let me break it down.

- Appointed Tillerson, an oil tycoon with extensive ties to Russian business, as secretary of state.
- Trump ally Sessions met twice with the Russian ambassador to the U.S. and lied about it. (Why?)
- Trump appointed as Nnational security adviser Mike Flynn, who has appeared on and paid by Russian propaganda TV and has lied about contacts with Russian ambassador.
- Trump himself gave classified information to the same ambassador.
- Like Tillerson, Trump has extensive business dealings in Russia, including a new Trump Tower in Moscow that he sought during the campaign, and
- Paul Manafort, a campaign adviser to Trump, has made a lot of business deals with Russian officials and Ukrainian businessmen close to Putin,
- Jared Kushner has also met with Russian ambassador.
- Kushner and Don Jr corresponded and met with a Russian who said they had dirt on Hillary, then they lied about it, then Trump himself wrote the statement when they got caught.
- Steve Bannon himself has said that all the ties relate to money laundering

That's just the tip of the iceberg and all I have time for before I go to work. Here's a link for more: https://www.politico.com/magazine/s...ies-chart-flynn-page-manafort-sessions-214868.

Stick to working out and fast twitch muscle fibers kid. You're out of your element here.
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So what, he met with somebody that gave dirt on Hillary. Like Hillary and every candidate hasn’t tried that at some point. Russia didn’t twist anybody’s arm and force them to vote for trump.

Side note you may not wanna identify as a trump hater lol. Did u ever see every male trump protestor?? Freakin angry beta blue ball city lol. And your right I have better things to do than worry about trump and Russia conspiracies.
 
—- ‘In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.’

I’m sorry but this is what the 19th mass shooting in the US since the turn of the year and we are only halfway through February...

How can this keep happening over and over and nothing change?

Yet again this post:
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens onion.com/ScRJZR
 
rossihunter2 said:
—- ‘In retrospect Sandy Hook marked the end of the US gun control debate. Once America decided killing children was bearable, it was over.’

I’m sorry but this is what the 19th mass shooting in the US since the turn of the year and we are only halfway through February...

How can this keep happening over and over and nothing change?

Yet again this post:
‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens onion.com/ScRJZR
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You can certainly reduce the odds of a mass shooting occurring, but do you have a way to stop it from never happening again?
 
Somerset Ravens said:
You can certainly reduce the odds of a mass shooting occurring, but do you have a way to stop it from never happening again?
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The U.K. has had 1 mass shooting in the last 22 years... we’ve had other terrorist incidents since but as you’d expect they are much more infrequent because there are no guns to perpetrate attacks with

And I’m not sure why being unable to stopping another shooting from ever happening again should stop efforts to reduce them significantly - you’ve had more mass shootings in the last month and a half in the US than the U.K. has had maybe in its entire modern history...

There’s no excuse for doing nothing
 
Somerset Ravens said:
You can certainly reduce the odds of a mass shooting occurring, but do you have a way to stop it from never happening again?
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How about you ask almost every other first world country, including Australia, which I believe has had zero (ZERO) mass shootings since implementing gun laws in the 1990s.

For those offering your pathetic thoughts and prayers: keep them to yourself. Nobody wants or needs them. Frankly, they only make this epidemic worse. The belief that prayer is going to end mass shootings is outright moronic and only inhibits legitimate action. Thoughts and prayers do nothing.

We need policy and change, not thoughts and prayers.
 
Policy?
Like making murder illegal?
Maybe if murder was illegal that would change things.
 
K-Dog said:
Policy?
Like making murder illegal?
Maybe if murder was illegal that would change things.
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For starters make AR-15s illegal, add in gun controls and regulations

And you know what, despite the 2nd amendment - you eventually get rid of guns completely and make anything except single-shot hunting rifles and shotguns completely illegal and you implement heavily backgrounded licences for the guns that are allowed
 
rossihunter2 said:
For starters make AR-15s illegal, add in gun controls and regulations

And you know what, despite the 2nd amendment - you eventually get rid of guns completely and make anything except single-shot hunting rifles and shotguns completely illegal and you implement heavily backgrounded licences for the guns that are allowed
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Do some research on the AR-15.
It is a single shot rifle.

Heroin is illegal, you can still get it. If guns are made illegal you can still get them. A gun ban will only punish the law abiding.

Background checks and licensing exists in many states, but has had little to no impact.
 
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