The Defence, the Turnovers, and the Tucker

[29BmoreBird22]

But it sounds like you're saying coaching is a factor in NOT committing the penalty, vs actually committing it, i.e. they're coaching them to NOT commit penalties. Which was my whole premise. They're coaching them to get a half second earlier without actually committing the penalty.

My view is that, in certain situations, you'll never know if its coaching vs execution. Ravens Oline coach can be teaching Stanley to use identical techniques that Taylor is. Maybe one is executing on it and one isn't. If that's the case, then its not a coaching failure. It's only a coaching failure if they're actually teaching them incorrectly.

Again, no coach is going to explicitly say to commit a penalty except under special circumstances like the end of the Super Bowl.

However, the coaches are absolutely going to coach players in a way that toes the line between is it a penalty or not and cannot be shocked when it gets flagged.

 

[Grim]

And maybe so, but if those start to be called, then they start being coached not to do them. Technically if they're not being called, then you can argue they're not actually penalties, which means teams still aren't coaching penalties.
Here's some good context from Spencer:

x.com

x.com

Defensively, we're kind of OK. Probably a bit too many DPIs and Holding calls, but not earth shattering. I know a lot of the roughing calls have been suspect, so I'm not putting too much into that.

Second worst team in the league in Offensive holding penalties. Averaging 2-3 per game.
14 penalties this year between Illegal formations, and Ineligible down field, both of which should practically never happen. Getting at least 1-2 of those per game.
13 false starts, which isn't great, but is actually about league average.

The procedural penalties are horrendous compared to the rest of the league, and there's clearly either massive technique or execution challenges with the Oline.

x.com

x.com

And one more... three Olineman in the top 10 in offensive holding. Mekari leads the league, Faalele and Stanley are top 10 in most holds. Obviously interior Oline is a big problem.

I’m not surprised OL is an issue since Joe D died. I’m sure he would’ve helped correct it. It’s not at all surprising the OL has struggled. If you look at it that way, we had even more coaching turnover.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

OK so a) I was referencing the Ravens specifically. I can't speak to what other coaching staffs do in regards to how they push the boundaries and b) the penalties we are getting, and I'm referencing, aren't the kind where we're getting dinged four or five times a game for being a half step off the line.
Several of our penalties are procedural one's. Illegal men down field, improper alignment on line of scrimmage, etc. Those are 100% practiced by all NFL teams, and are completely personnel driven.

We obviously know there are "technique" penalties. Olineman loses his rep and grabs to not let the lineman through. Corner loses his rep and grabs or holds to not give up a big play to a receiver. Those obviously aren't coached either, but in some cases, they're the lesser of two evils. It's the one's where the players don't execute their assignments correctly that are killers.

I feel like procedural penalties and pre snap penalties, can certainly be a coaching issue. For one, when you try to do too much cute shit, or run a play that wasn’t thoroughly practiced because it’s a niche kinda play, guys will jump because they’re unsure or overthinking trying to execute a play they’re unfamiliar with. Or if the communication from the booth to the field is poor and disorganized, guys are scrambling to get lined up and everyone’s internal clock gets sped up.

Communication has often looked bad, I mean the delay of game issue dates back to cam Cameron, and then plays like the 2 point conversion, guys were clearly unprepared there and the play was rushed. These things have long been an issue in Baltimore.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I feel like procedural penalties and pre snap penalties, can certainly be a coaching issue. For one, when you try to do too much cute shit, or run a play that wasn’t thoroughly practiced because it’s a niche kinda play, guys will jump because they’re unsure or overthinking trying to execute a play they’re unfamiliar with. Or if the communication from the booth to the field is poor and disorganized, guys are scrambling to get lined up and everyone’s internal clock gets sped up.

Communication has often looked bad, I mean the delay of game issue dates back to cam Cameron, and then plays like the 2 point conversion, guys were clearly unprepared there and the play was rushed. These things have long been an issue in Baltimore.

Situationally, its possible. Proper pre-snap alignment is heavily coached. You can see it in training camp nearly every day. This kinds of penalties I don't see as contributors to coaching.

Illegal men down field is a wildcard, because its all situational. RPOs are more susceptible to it, and at least one of the issues was on Lamar yesterday. But again, that's also being coached. It takes a lot of practice to execute those plays at a high level. And even in camp, you can see those being practiced. In my eyes, it comes down to execution.

I think the communication issues largely manifest into either delay of game penalties (not getting play call/substitutions in quick enough), or in "blown up" plays, where guys don't know what they're supposed to be doing and the play is botched (the entire 2PC play seemingly). I don't see them manifesting into some of the others.

 

[gtalk12]

I feel like procedural penalties and pre snap penalties, can certainly be a coaching issue. For one, when you try to do too much cute shit, or run a play that wasn’t thoroughly practiced because it’s a niche kinda play, guys will jump because they’re unsure or overthinking trying to execute a play they’re unfamiliar with. Or if the communication from the booth to the field is poor and disorganized, guys are scrambling to get lined up and everyone’s internal clock gets sped up.

Communication has often looked bad, I mean the delay of game issue dates back to cam Cameron, and then plays like the 2 point conversion, guys were clearly unprepared there and the play was rushed. These things have long been an issue in Baltimore.

It’s very telling when you look at all the coordinators we’ve been through.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

If we negotiate a new contract with Lamar, Bisquits needs to thank Harbs and show him the door. He'll even get some parting gifts, but he has to go.

 

[JAAM]

If we negotiate a new contract with Lamar, Bisquits needs to thank Harbs and show him the door. He'll even get some parting gifts, but he has to go.

Lamar needs to speak tf up. Ain’t no way he likes Harbaugh as a head coach. This shit show is a collective effort

 

[drjohnnyfever]

Lamar needs to speak tf up. Ain’t no way he likes Harbaugh as a head coach. This shit show is a collective effort

I agree. I've been on the fire Harbs train for a few years now. I also said since they started working on Lamar's first extension, that I wanted to see Lamar without JH and if they were set on JH then they should attempt a trade for Lamar to get as much draft capital as they could. My first choice was Lamar without JH. My second choice was Lamar with JH in an office roll or out. And my third was JH with someone other than Lamar with all the draft capital spread over the rest of the team with a veteran QB.

At this point, for me, there's no option for Lamar with JH. Just hard stop on that. I can no longer find anything other than mockery in my heart and soul for that stupid ass "what the fuck are you talking about" look Harbs continues to display on the sideline.

 

[UPennChem]

Our second game vs them has to go very differently. If it doesn't, I'm not sure what to say.

@JoeyFlex5 You and I said weeks ago that we expected the games against them to go poorly. This shit was really obvious. The only bright spot that I can think is that the defensive side of the ball is actually making changes. But the thing is, our offense plays poorly in most big games. Nearly 100% of playoff games and 100% of Steelers games. I'm not sure how you can fix a problem that's so mental and abstract compared to physical or personnel.

 

[Baltimorican]

And maybe so, but if those start to be called, then they start being coached not to do them. Technically if they're not being called, then you can argue they're not actually penalties, which means teams still aren't coaching penalties.
Here's some good context from Spencer:

x.com

x.com

Defensively, we're kind of OK. Probably a bit too many DPIs and Holding calls, but not earth shattering. I know a lot of the roughing calls have been suspect, so I'm not putting too much into that.

Second worst team in the league in Offensive holding penalties. Averaging 2-3 per game.
14 penalties this year between Illegal formations, and Ineligible down field, both of which should practically never happen. Getting at least 1-2 of those per game.
13 false starts, which isn't great, but is actually about league average.

The procedural penalties are horrendous compared to the rest of the league, and there's clearly either massive technique or execution challenges with the Oline.

x.com

x.com

And one more... three Olineman in the top 10 in offensive holding. Mekari leads the league, Faalele and Stanley are top 10 in most holds. Obviously interior Oline is a big problem.

Nice breakdown. Faalele is clearly the one improving the most since week 1, he's becoming a force even if t feels like he takes 1 step back 2 forward. Rosengarten is handling himself ok for a rookie at a tough spot. IMo Mekari could find himself in a rotation with Vorhees by the bye if he doesn't start cleaning it up.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Nice breakdown. Faalele is clearly the one improving the most since week 1, he's becoming a force even if t feels like he takes 1 step back 2 forward. Rosengarten is handling himself ok for a rookie at a tough spot. IMo Mekari could find himself in a rotation with Vorhees by the bye if he doesn't start cleaning it up.

The thing about Mekari is... he's actually been fairly good in pass protection. That's why I think he's keeping his job. His run blocking, in my opinion, is atrocious.
And while we're a run-heavy team, good pass protectors who can't run block can start for 10 years in this league. A great run blocker who can't pass protect will be out of the league in 3. There's just tremendous more value on one over the other.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Our second game vs them has to go very differently. If it doesn't, I'm not sure what to say.

@JoeyFlex5 You and I said weeks ago that we expected the games against them to go poorly. This shit was really obvious. The only bright spot that I can think is that the defensive side of the ball is actually making changes. But the thing is, our offense plays poorly in most big games. Nearly 100% of playoff games and 100% of Steelers games. I'm not sure how you can fix a problem that's so mental and abstract compared to physical or personnel.

Offense stepped up vs Texans last year in the 2nd half. But that’s about it.

You see clear coaching issues in these games, getting away from your identity etc. but there’s also a lot of Lamar issues in these games as well. He wasn’t terrible Sunday but he wasn’t good either. On some of those inopportune long 2nd and 3rd downs, he had guys open and time to throw, and just sailed it, I believe he had 3 of them. I saw 2 consecutive turnover worthy throws some time around mid game on 2nd and 3rd down, luckily no defender was realistically close enough but they were easily makeable throws and he just put them way out of the receivers reach and in harms way. Also, not running when he should just fucking run. He still saves his legs for when we absolutely need them and will turn down positive yardage for an extra 3 seconds and an incompletion.

It’s an all around problem in these games. I don’t absolve Lamar entirely. But I think the larger issue is coaching.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Offense stepped up vs Texans last year in the 2nd half. But that’s about it.

You see clear coaching issues in these games, getting away from your identity etc. but there’s also a lot of Lamar issues in these games as well. He wasn’t terrible Sunday but he wasn’t good either. On some of those inopportune long 2nd and 3rd downs, he had guys open and time to throw, and just sailed it, I believe he had 3 of them. I saw 2 consecutive turnover worthy throws some time around mid game on 2nd and 3rd down, luckily no defender was realistically close enough but they were easily makeable throws and he just put them way out of the receivers reach and in harms way. Also, not running when he should just fucking run. He still saves his legs for when we absolutely need them and will turn down positive yardage for an extra 3 seconds and an incompletion.

It’s an all around problem in these games. I don’t absolve Lamar entirely. But I think the larger issue is coaching.

This is true. Here's the problem I have when we talk about the "abandoning the identity things"... it doesn't always materialize into losses. It's pretty clear that our run/pass distribution in both Cincinnati games was nowhere close to what we wanted it to be. I'm not saying we "got away from ourselves", but I think far too often we just assume that if we're not "balanced" or even run heavy, that Lamar starts sucking. He was fantastic in both of those games. He was very good against Cleveland.

I struggle with this idea that when we "abandon our identity" it means Lamar has to suck. He deserves a LOT of blame for some of these PIT and KC losses. Not all of it, and maybe not most of it, but a lot of it. He can simply play better. He gets paid to play better. He's expected to. It matters more to play well in this game than it does to throw 5 TDs in a blowout against Denver. It just does.

I don't buy for a second that this loss was about "abandoning who we are" from a run/pass distribution. We had 16 designed runs for Derrick Henry called by the end of 3rd quarter. That is NOT a low number by any stretch of the imagination. I'd argue its too high of a number over the course of a 17 game season.

Lamar gets less blame because of the penalties and the down/distance he had to deal with, and the missed kicks and the turnovers. He missed plenty of throws. He missed plenty of opportunities to extend plays with his legs. Coaching won't solve that. He needs to solve that. He's the expensive veteran. He is the measuring stick for these games.

At the end of the day, Lamar needs to go out there and make it extremely clear that he's the best player on the field in these games. He came pretty close to doing that against KC earlier this year, and that's why he caught less shit for that loss. He wasn't anywhere close to the best player yesterday, and hasn't been in really any PIT game he's played and very few KC games also.

 

[Baltimorican]

The thing about Mekari is... he's actually been fairly good in pass protection. That's why I think he's keeping his job. His run blocking, in my opinion, is atrocious.
And while we're a run-heavy team, good pass protectors who can't run block can start for 10 years in this league. A great run blocker who can't pass protect will be out of the league in 3. There's just tremendous more value on one over the other.

Run blocking is pretty important for a guard. If Vorhees outplays him there he could move out to RT and rotate with Rosengarten like was first planned.

 

[redrum52]

Remember all this steelers praise this week. All the best team talk. We'll revisit this convo in a couple weeks

 

[allblackraven]

Remember all this steelers praise this week. All the best team talk. We'll revisit this convo in a couple weeks

I need our boys to drop 40 on them.

 

[UPennChem]

You'd have to be a pretty ignorant Homer to not blame Lamar for a lot of the struggles in those big losses.

That being said, I think its very fair to say he's generally gotten better over time not worse. We've gone deeper in thr playoffs etc.

But I do not think we've made things easy for him at all. In particular his OL has made him run for his life in those big games. Penalties have been awful and WR inexplicable drops have not been uncommon.

When things start going wrong there's all around panic and we look like fools

 

[allblackraven]

You'd have to be a pretty ignorant Homer to not blame Lamar for a lot of the struggles in those big losses.

That being said, I think its very fair to say he's generally gotten better over time not worse. We've gone deeper in thr playoffs etc.

But I do not think we've made things easy for him at all. In particular his OL has made him run for his life in those big games. Penalties have been awful and WR inexplicable drops have not been uncommon.

When things start going wrong there's all around panic and we look like fools

So - O line played like crap and WRs were dropping balls but let's blame Lamar for A LOT OF THE STRUGGLES.

If we don't, we are homers.

 

[UPennChem]

So - O line played like crap and WRs were dropping balls but let's blame Lamar for A LOT OF THE STRUGGLES.

If we don't, we are homers.

This response is the entire point im making. The entire point is some is on him and a lot is not. There's so many people that absolve him entirely. That's just not right. But there's also so many people hunting him who ignore the litany of shitshow nonsense surrounding him. The point is any nonbiased person acknowledges it's both.

I then literally made the point he's continuously gotten better. That doesn't mean there isn't more room to grow. And I'm confident he can. I don't think the John Harbaugh approach is the most likely one to help him achieve that step though.

 

[allblackraven]

This response is the entire point im making. The entire point is some is on him and a lot is not. There's so many people that absolve him entirely. That's just not right. But there's also so many people hunting him who ignore the litany of shitshow nonsense surrounding him. The point is any nonbiased person acknowledges it's both.

I then literally made the point he's continuously gotten better. That doesn't mean there isn't more room to grow. And I'm confident he can. I don't think the John Harbaugh approach is the most likely one to help him achieve that step though.

You said that, I'm not inventing anything.

You'd have to be a pretty ignorant Homer to not blame Lamar for a lot of the struggles in those big losses.