Lamar, The Running Game and The Defensive Collapse

[airconteka]

Maybe with our current RB'S, they know Lamar's keeping the ball regardless. Drake and Davis are terrible. I would have liked to see them give the ball more to Ricard.

Hate the Drake

 

[BoredMarine13]

I’m devistated. I’m in Germany at Oktoberfest and was unable to watch the game but knew we were up 35-14 in the 14th. I tried to kiss a crush and got rejected: blacked out and found out this morning. I literally can’t believe we lost

lol this is great.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Maybe with our current RB'S, they know Lamar's keeping the ball regardless. Drake and Davis are terrible. I would have liked to see them give the ball more to Ricard.

Or, pass the ball. Doesn't have to be a running play. We seem to act like it must.

 

[rmcjacket23]

My takes on over-reaction Monday:
1. I'm not totally sweating the defensive collapse as a long-term issue...yet. Want to see film breakdown. Fairly confidence Hamilton was trash and that a lot of the secondary issues were blown assignments/miscommunications, which at least, is theoretically "fixable". Secondary has some injury concerns, but not seeing any long term one's at the moment.
2. Run game sucks, and I don't know if it'll get better. For the group who says "you gotta be able to throw it in the playoffs", I'm pretty sure, at this pace, a reckoning is coming for this offense. I think defenses in about a month or going to take away the big plays (much like they've done with Mahomes) and just force Lamar to take short and intermediate passing all season. And when that happens, and the running game isn't thriving, it's a wrap for this offense.
3. Gotta find ways to execute short yardage, because its a atrocious. Defense totally collapsed in the 4th quarter, but so did the offense, and the offense had numerous chances to hammer this game in, and failed to do so. If we're going to consistently fail to convert 4th and short, bring Stout out there and play field position.
4. Pass rush was what we thought it was on Sunday. It wasn't there. And thats a personnel problem for the most part. May not be solve-able.

Plenty of "star" players out there this week, including the offensive line in pass protection, but in a loss, nobody cares.

One additional item I neglected to call out but I saw it a lot yesterday...
I still hate Queen in coverage, especially zone coverage. He has almost no instincts about where he is in space, and Tua actively targeted players in his zone multiple times yesterday. He's actually frequently in the right "spot" horizontally, but in terms of how he sets his depth, he's completely lost. There's times where if his depth is simply like 2-3 yards further back, he's deflecting passes or even intercepting them.

Either he needs heavy work in those areas in practice, or he can't be a 100% snap player. I'll take my chances with Corners in zone coverage than to watch that week in and week out.

And the reality is that's pretty much who Queen's been for many years now. One week he looks like an All-Pro linebacker who needs to be on the field at all times. Other weeks, he looks completely lost in coverage and has no clue where he's supposed to be.

And to make it worse, I think the "solution" to what we saw yesterday is more zone coverage, more 2 deep safety looks. Which means linebackers in coverage is going to become a bigger part of the scheme.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I've been saying this for at least a couple years about whatever analytics Harbaugh is using to determine going on 4th and short. The LEAGUE analytics is one thing - maybe it's successful 60-65% league-wide, but this team's analytics on 4th and short is POOR. Maybe not the case in 2019 or even 2018 for half a season, but over the last 3 years it has not been good. Go back to playing field position. Harbs, of all people should get that, but this is the same guy that continually challenges ball placement calls and regularly loses those too. One of the least likely challenges to be successful. I don't get it sometimes. Sometimes, back to basics is just the right thing to do. Less thinking and more playing what you're being given.

To clarify... I don't think we should be punting in those spots. But our approach to play calling in those spots clearly sucks.

 

[UPennChem]

To clarify... I don't think we should be punting in those spots. But our approach to play calling in those spots clearly sucks.

This

 

[BoredMarine13]

As bad as the letdown was, I don't think anybody could argue we aren't clearly the best team in the division right now.

Yep, Bengals looks like a shell of themselves and the Steelers are struggling at Oline and QB. Browns seem more dangerous than both.

 

[UPennChem]

Yep, Bengals looks like a shell of themselves and the Steelers are struggling at Oline and QB. Browns seem more dangerous than both.

And yet almost lost the Panthers and did lose to the Jets. They're whole team rides with if Watson comes back an elite player or not

 

[rossihunter2]

I gotta say this was slightly a head scratcher from a coaching perspective this week (Harbs and MM particularly and a little GRo).

Harbs was hyper aggressive on 4th down calls, which is true to his nature in the Lamar Era. But simultaneously, we didn't give the Dolphins much respect because we thought we could rest Marlon the second half. What did they do, they marched down and scored a TD with Marlon on the bench. Then at the end I'm pretty sure either Marlon or Marcus wasn't in on the final drive because we saw both Pepe and JAD playing at the same time. So like were they injured and couldn't play or was this over reacting to last years injuries? Idk.

Then MM in the third quarter doesn't send any pass rush at all. But in the 4th quarter starts sending exotic pass rushes that take Marcus Williams out of the back 3rd and to the LOS. This is after we've seen them destroy us for 3 TDs in quick succession.

GRo committed to running on those 1 yard plays even when it didn't work 5 times in a row. Then later in the game tried some more. Situational play calling sucked when it mattered. Which is so frustrating because 95% of his game calling was fantastic this week.

Marlon basically said his body was telling him he couldnt go at the end of the game - probably the first time since his rookie year he's finished a game with less than 80% of the snaps - MP was on a pitch count all day

we had geno stone in the game too at the end there - just an all-around mess of role players having to step in as "starters" in the most high leverage moments of the game

was marcus williams and chuck clark and a bunch of young guys who've probably never played together

 

[rossihunter2]

Or, pass the ball. Doesn't have to be a running play. We seem to act like it must.

literally lol - the 1 play we called a pass we scored... we had not just 1 but 2 players wide open in the endzone

 

[UPennChem]

Marlon basically said his body was telling him he couldnt go at the end of the game - probably the first time since his rookie year he's finished a game with less than 80% of the snaps - MP was on a pitch count all day

we had geno stone in the game too at the end there - just an all-around mess of role players having to step in as "starters" in the most high leverage moments of the game

was marcus williams and chuck clark and a bunch of young guys who've probably never played together

Yeah I mean this is why I'm not going to overreact to the defense. If anyone was asked do you think that if Marlon, Peters, and Stephens are all out and you're playing Pepe, JAD, and Stone vs Waddle and Hill that they'll play well? The answer would be 10/10 no. Then throw in that there was no pass rush. Of course what happened, happened.

I will however overreact to the run game because I see no way it gets better

 

[rossihunter2]

Yeah I mean this is why I'm not going to overreact to the defense. If anyone was asked do you think that if Marlon, Peters, and Stephens are all out and you're playing Pepe, JAD, and Stone vs Waddle and Hill that they'll play well? The answer would be 10/10 no. Then throw in that there was no pass rush. Of course what happened, happened.

I will however overreact to the run game because I see no way it gets better

i think the other key thing we were missing yesterday was someone on defence with that sense of gravity and willpower to just not allow stuff like this to happen

i would have said marlon but we've had defensive collapses where he's on the field - it's hard to quantify clutch but it feels like, for a few years now, we've not had a closer on defence who can take it upon themselves in the 4th quarter to just say "enough is enough"

whether it's a pass rusher, a LB, a safety or a corner - we just dont seem to have that guy right now and i dont think we have since we lost those 2018 guys in Sizzle, CJ and Weddle

 

[UPennChem]

i think the other key thing we were missing yesterday was someone on defence with that sense of gravity and willpower to just not allow stuff like this to happen

i would have said marlon but we've had defensive collapses where he's on the field - it's hard to quantify clutch but it feels like, for a few years now, we've not had a closer on defence who can take it upon themselves in the 4th quarter to just say "enough is enough"

whether it's a pass rusher, a LB, a safety or a corner - we just dont seem to have that guy right now and i dont think we have since we lost those 2018 guys in Sizzle, CJ and Weddle

Don't disagree with that

 

[Dom McRaven]

i think the other key thing we were missing yesterday was someone on defence with that sense of gravity and willpower to just not allow stuff like this to happen

i would have said marlon but we've had defensive collapses where he's on the field - it's hard to quantify clutch but it feels like, for a few years now, we've not had a closer on defence who can take it upon themselves in the 4th quarter to just say "enough is enough"

whether it's a pass rusher, a LB, a safety or a corner - we just dont seem to have that guy right now and i dont think we have since we lost those 2018 guys in Sizzle, CJ and Weddle

By the way, where has Oweh been? Is it me or he's been hella quiet recently?

 

[rmcjacket23]

Yeah I mean this is why I'm not going to overreact to the defense. If anyone was asked do you think that if Marlon, Peters, and Stephens are all out and you're playing Pepe, JAD, and Stone vs Waddle and Hill that they'll play well? The answer would be 10/10 no. Then throw in that there was no pass rush. Of course what happened, happened.

I will however overreact to the run game because I see no way it gets better

Here's my problem though... the big plays that we gave up, weren't because we had less talented corners in man-to-man matchups just getting beat by superior players. Like, yeah, Waddle sort of owned us in matchups, but end of day, he had like 150+ and they scored 14 points in 3 quarters and were getting blown out the building. I can live with that.

The chunk plays were just mental screwups. Like the one where Hill just runs by Pepe and he just stands there, that's not a talent issue. That's the secondary botching communication. Either Pepe thinks he's got help and he really didn't, or he's supposed to have help and it never came (based on the reactions, it was on Hamilton).

I have no problem giving up 400 yards passing with rookie corners when the other team score 21 points. We win that game going away. You just can't have Safeties, of which 2/3 of them are highly seasoned veterans, getting beat deep twice for layup TDs. I'm not putting that one young Corners.

That's the frustrating part. Last year, WRs abused us because there's a talent gap. That wasn't what I saw yesterday. I saw lack of discipline, lack of executing assignments, etc. The balls that Pepe and JAD missed, they were in position but maybe like a step late. THAT'S what I expect from young corners.

 

[rossihunter2]

 

[rossihunter2]

By the way, where has Oweh been? Is it me or he's been hella quiet recently?

i was saying during the game but i think it's a combination of 3 things - 2 are out of his control and 1 is in his control

1) out of necessity (no bowser, no biegel, no hayes) he's having to play SAM which puts him on the strong side of the defence which gives him different responsibilities than if he was a pure rush LB - it also means he gets more chips and double teams sent his way
2) out of necessity (no EDGE players) he's having to play 80%+ of the snaps which naturally makes it hard to maintain his explosion - you could see in calais campbell's wired segment last week that oweh was tired and i imagine it was only worse this week
3) he's still too often late off the ball - he's got crazy athleticism but he's not making the most of it coming off the ball, too often he's the last guy on the line out of his stance

and this is why i think getting bowser back will massively help oweh - houston, until means injury, was the guy getting the benefit of some rotational snaps but oweh wasnt - bowser coming back takes over the primary SAM responsibilities and allows Oweh to be more of a rush LB and also doesnt have to play over 80% of the snaps

 

[rossihunter2]

Here's my problem though... the big plays that we gave up, weren't because we had less talented corners in man-to-man matchups just getting beat by superior players. Like, yeah, Waddle sort of owned us in matchups, but end of day, he had like 150+ and they scored 14 points in 3 quarters and were getting blown out the building. I can live with that.

The chunk plays were just mental screwups. Like the one where Hill just runs by Pepe and he just stands there, that's not a talent issue. That's the secondary botching communication. Either Pepe thinks he's got help and he really didn't, or he's supposed to have help and it never came (based on the reactions, it was on Hamilton).

I have no problem giving up 400 yards passing with rookie corners when the other team score 21 points. We win that game going away. You just can't have Safeties, of which 2/3 of them are highly seasoned veterans, getting beat deep twice for layup TDs. I'm not putting that one young Corners.

That's the frustrating part. Last year, WRs abused us because there's a talent gap. That wasn't what I saw yesterday. I saw lack of discipline, lack of executing assignments, etc. The balls that Pepe and JAD missed, they were in position but maybe like a step late. THAT'S what I expect from young corners.

on the Hill TD, looked like Hamilton had the wrong call - he and Williams were both stood in the same spot and ended up bracketing waddle up the seam with Pepe over the top - my guess is Hamilton had it wrong, but he's also a rookie and he's clearly lined up in the wrong place on a critical down leaving JAD 1v1 with Hill thinking he's got safety help and he doesnt

Williams or Chuck have to notice that and tell Hamilton where he needs to be
or...
the coaches need to see that and call a timeout because JAD played that the way he thought he was supposed to based on the coverage called

 

[Dom McRaven]

Not only this, but he needs to run block better and actually rush the passer too.

 

[UPennChem]

Here's my problem though... the big plays that we gave up, weren't because we had less talented corners in man-to-man matchups just getting beat by superior players. Like, yeah, Waddle sort of owned us in matchups, but end of day, he had like 150+ and they scored 14 points in 3 quarters and were getting blown out the building. I can live with that.

The chunk plays were just mental screwups. Like the one where Hill just runs by Pepe and he just stands there, that's not a talent issue. That's the secondary botching communication. Either Pepe thinks he's got help and he really didn't, or he's supposed to have help and it never came (based on the reactions, it was on Hamilton).

I have no problem giving up 400 yards passing with rookie corners when the other team score 21 points. We win that game going away. You just can't have Safeties, of which 2/3 of them are highly seasoned veterans, getting beat deep twice for layup TDs. I'm not putting that one young Corners.

That's the frustrating part. Last year, WRs abused us because there's a talent gap. That wasn't what I saw yesterday. I saw lack of discipline, lack of executing assignments, etc. The balls that Pepe and JAD missed, they were in position but maybe like a step late. THAT'S what I expect from young corners.

I don't disagree with any of that. But I guess I should have made my point clearer. It was not the case that the young guys were just fundamentally not up to the task physically, it was that they were not up to the task mentally. And clearly neither was MM. You can't have Clark and Williams at the LOS when you've seen Waddle and Hill beat you over the top multiple times at this point.

The young guys had their hands full and the crew of guys that were all out there at the same time in the positions they were, was a recipe for disaster it seems based on what happened. They weren't up to that.