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rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
This seemingly gets worse and involves multiple teams including the Broncos. Dolphins look bad too... Dolphins Owner Stephen Ross paid Flores $100,000 for every loss in 2019... Ross was mad they kept winning. The NFL is getting hit hard.







that 2nd thread with the excerpts from the lawsuit is pretty damaging

the giants should have just paid the fine like the raiders did when they were hiring gruden - acknowledge that they knew who their guy was all along and pay the fine and no one would actually have had any real issue with it
 

cdp

Ravens Ring of Honor
that 2nd thread with the excerpts from the lawsuit is pretty damaging

the giants should have just paid the fine like the raiders did when they were hiring gruden - acknowledge that they knew who their guy was all along and pay the fine and no one would actually have had any real issue with it
Interestingly at first he calls him coach then Bill.
One question though what's wrong with the owner wanting to pay up to 100k per loss? We all know coaches want to win every game - but from the franchise's perspective it made more sense to lose those games. I consider this an incentive or variable salary.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Interestingly at first he calls him coach then Bill.
One question though what's wrong with the owner wanting to pay up to 100k per loss? We all know coaches want to win every game - but from the franchise's perspective it made more sense to lose those games. I consider this an incentive or variable salary.

it fucks with the competitive integrity of the league and the sport - there's a difference between rebuilding/tanking (i.e. gutting the roster etc.) and actively losing

luckily sports betting wasnt legal in the NFL (in the way it is now) at the point in time - otherwise you'd have potentially significant extra legal issues here with regards to match-fixing

but it's also problematic (if you read the lawsuit excerpts) because flores's apparent refusal to do it (combined with his walking away from the illegal QB meeting ross set up) ultimately plays into his firing - the official reasons given for his firing related to his inability to collaborate within the organisation... well it's a very bad look when the guy who fires him has been asking him to do somewhat shady, if not against the rules, stuff
 

JO_75

Hall of Famer
it fucks with the competitive integrity of the league and the sport - there's a difference between rebuilding/tanking (i.e. gutting the roster etc.) and actively losing

luckily sports betting wasnt legal in the NFL (in the way it is now) at the point in time - otherwise you'd have potentially significant extra legal issues here with regards to match-fixing

but it's also problematic (if you read the lawsuit excerpts) because flores's apparent refusal to do it (combined with his walking away from the illegal QB meeting ross set up) ultimately plays into his firing - the official reasons given for his firing related to his inability to collaborate within the organisation... well it's a very bad look when the guy who fires him has been asking him to do somewhat shady, if not against the rules, stuff

Yeah Gruden being the fall guy for Snyder, thus his emails being the only ones that leaked of a thousand? Now this with Flores? The NFL good ol' boy club is about to be torn down.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor

Sure you can tell. That's why the "racism" aspect of the lawsuit has no merit.

If I were a minority coach interviewing for a job, while the Rooney Rule in in place, I'd never feel quite certain that I'm not just a token interview to meet an arbitrary process. In the pre-Rooney-rule era, a black HC candidate getting an interview knew they were getting an actual interview, not just a courtesy one.

When you force reverse discrimination, this is what you get. The legal system is going to see right through this. The policy itself, which goes above and beyond what most reasonable employers in any Country are required to do, encourages people to be interviewed that aren't qualified. That's the nature of the rule. Unless there's some law against that, which I'm unaware of, it has no legal basis.

It's just a way to publicly make the NFL "look bad", while doing something that literally everybody already knew was happening and expected.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
it fucks with the competitive integrity of the league and the sport - there's a difference between rebuilding/tanking (i.e. gutting the roster etc.) and actively losing

luckily sports betting wasnt legal in the NFL (in the way it is now) at the point in time - otherwise you'd have potentially significant extra legal issues here with regards to match-fixing

but it's also problematic (if you read the lawsuit excerpts) because flores's apparent refusal to do it (combined with his walking away from the illegal QB meeting ross set up) ultimately plays into his firing - the official reasons given for his firing related to his inability to collaborate within the organisation... well it's a very bad look when the guy who fires him has been asking him to do somewhat shady, if not against the rules, stuff
I mean... the only problem I have is that the media, and especially the Dolphins media and fanbase, look VERY bad in this case.
Most of the Dolphins media, and tons of its fanbase, wanted the Dolphins to lose in 2019. There are tweets, social media posts, articles everywhere that are coming forward that show beat writers criticizing the Dolphins for not tanking, and NOW, they come out and say its outrageous that the Owners would incentive a coach to lose.

That's a staggering level of lack of self-awareness and hypocrisy. Like an embarrassing level. You want the team to lose, but you don't want to know how they lose or why they lose? LOL.

Honestly, an organization "tanking" by actively putting out a roster that isn't competitive, is like 100x worse to me than any "bribe" to a coach or player to not perform well ever would be. I think its impossible to conjure up an argument otherwise to be honest.

Does intentionally not building a roster to compete have negative consequences on player performance, how they're subsequently evaluated, and even their compensation? Yes, yes it does. Does it have an impact on coaching, how they're evaluated, and how they're compensated? Yes, yes it does.

The public can play their little arbitrary morality card of "competitive disadvantage" and blah blah blah. I saw many Ravens fans on this board partially rooting for the Ravens to lose in week 17 so we could get a better draft pick, and a better schedule. So that's OK, but if you found out Steve paid John a bonus to lose, that would somehow be outrageous? The outcome is exactly what you wanted, but you didn't like how the outcome was reached?

Sorry, that sounds incredibly ignorant to me.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Yeah Gruden being the fall guy for Snyder, thus his emails being the only ones that leaked of a thousand? Now this with Flores? The NFL good ol' boy club is about to be torn down.
How? The worst case scenario possible is they force Ross to sell the team. That's the max.

Good luck coming up with a policy that arbitrarily meets the standards of "no racism at all". It's a 70% black workforce. Even if 30-40% of HC's were black, it probably wouldn't meet whatever arbitrary standards the public has in mind. Nothing short of a 70% minority coaching workforce would be sufficient.

The legal system doesn't really care about that either.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Sure you can tell. That's why the "racism" aspect of the lawsuit has no merit.

If I were a minority coach interviewing for a job, while the Rooney Rule in in place, I'd never feel quite certain that I'm not just a token interview to meet an arbitrary process. In the pre-Rooney-rule era, a black HC candidate getting an interview knew they were getting an actual interview, not just a courtesy one.

When you force reverse discrimination, this is what you get. The legal system is going to see right through this. The policy itself, which goes above and beyond what most reasonable employers in any Country are required to do, encourages people to be interviewed that aren't qualified. That's the nature of the rule. Unless there's some law against that, which I'm unaware of, it has no legal basis.

It's just a way to publicly make the NFL "look bad", while doing something that literally everybody already knew was happening and expected.

that's only what the rule does if you're being wilfully ignorant - the rule doesnt encourage interviews of people that arent qualified, it encourages teams and leadership to look beyond their small circles of nepotism and engage with and give opportunities to qualified people without those connections to the existing leadership

and his lawsuit is against the NFL not those specific teams - he's talking about racism in hiring across the league and using those teams as examples

the idea that unqualified people get interviewed over qualified people due to reverse racism is one of the classic false dogwhistle concerns that many imbeciles have

if i look specifically just at this hiring cycle for example - the least qualified candidate is josh mccown

and btw this is not an example of reverse discrimination (which is actually incredibly rare) - if it was then the league would actually not only be hiring minority head coaches but would be hiring them at a rate that would lead to an "over-representation" of minorities based on the industry demographics
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
that's only what the rule does if you're being wilfully ignorant - the rule doesnt encourage interviews of people that arent qualified, it encourages teams and leadership to look beyond their small circles of nepotism and engage with and give opportunities to qualified people without those connections to the existing leadership

and his lawsuit is against the NFL not those specific teams - he's talking about racism in hiring across the league and using those teams as examples

the idea that unqualified people get interviewed over qualified people due to reverse racism is one of the classic false dogwhistle concerns that many imbeciles have

if i look specifically just at this hiring cycle for example - the least qualified candidate is josh mccown

and btw this is not an example of reverse discrimination (which is actually incredibly rare) - if it was then the league would actually not only be hiring minority head coaches but would be hiring them at a rate that would lead to an "over-representation" of minorities based on the industry demographics
So a couple issues I have with this:
1. You said this: it encourages teams and leadership to look beyond their small circles of nepotism and engage with and give opportunities to qualified people without those connections to the existing leadership
Not only is that NOT what the Rooney Rule does, you'd be hard pressed to find examples of such instances occurring. If that were in fact true, then by definition, the skin color of the person being interviewed wouldn't be a factor in the policy. You are basing this off the idea that a) nepotism is limited exclusively to white people in this instance, which isn't accurate or verifiable, and that black candidates don't have any connections to existing leadership. That pretty much is impossible, because as far as I know, pretty much all black coaches that have been hired as a HC or even a Coordinator were already coaches in the NFL or at the very least in college, meaning by definition, they had connections to existing leadership in some form or fashion within the industry.
2. I understand he's talking about the entire league. That's why he made it a "class action lawsuit", because he's encouraging other minorities to join his cause (and naturally split the bill). Its also convenient, because he and his attorney undoubtedly know that he alone doesn't have nearly enough detail to warrant an actual lawsuit that would yield a judge or jury to conclude that that he was discriminated against.
Especially true when the Rooney Rule itself is a policy the NFL implemented that goes well, well, well above and beyond pretty much any hiring practices most employers in this Country would put in place for interviewing and hiring candidates.
3. I didn't say unqualified people would get interviewed over qualified people. I said the policy pretty much dictates that unqualified people have to be interviewed, by rule, for jobs that employers have no intention of giving to them, because more qualified candidates already exist. It just means more interviews and more wasted time for all parties involved. Hence the fact that rule goes above and beyond what pretty much any employer would do. Thus, a bad argument in Court.
4. I agree that hiring Josh McCown would be stupid. Good luck going to a Court and proving actual discrimination by the Texans because they hired somebody less qualified than you. The fact that you're more qualified doesn't automatically mean its racist to not hire you. I've personally turned away more qualified people for less qualified people for a variety of reasons.
5. This is not an instance of reverse racism. I said nobody would be happy until the proportion of black workers matches the proportion of black management. It's the standard line you hear all the time with this discussion. If 70% of the labor force is black, how can there only be like 2-3 black HC's in the league? If that rose to even 10 HC's, I don't think it would be enough for the majority of people who think this is a major issue.

Not to mention that one of the biggest challenges Flores faces is that, of course, he was ACTUALLY HIRED AS A HC. He got the job he was looking for. He then conveniently waited until he was fired to file the lawsuit. Much of his accusations occurred several years back. I think that might have been a good time to file a lawsuit.

Waiting until you've been fired for not meeting expectations and subsequently not hired for other roles doesn't have the "appearance" of somebody who is in it for the right reasons. If this is truly about "character" and "fixing injustice", then the time for lawsuits and awareness is just a few moments after the incident occurs. It's not the kind of thing you need years to think about and ponder. The only way you need years to think about and ponder alleged discrimination that is several years old is when the checks you've been cashing during that time, signed by the people who allegedly discriminated against you, stop coming in.
 
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rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Seems suspicious how quick the league pulled out the "without merit" line.


Probably because it's a canned response from their attorneys. What else would you like them to say?

Plus, I doubt they've only had two hours notice about the lawsuit...
 

BoredMarine13

Ravens Ring of Honor
4. I agree that hiring Josh McCown would be stupid. Good luck going to a Court and proving actual discrimination by the Texans because they hired somebody less qualified than you. The fact that you're more qualified doesn't automatically mean its racist to not hire you. I've personally turned away more qualified people for less qualified people for a variety of reasons.

Same, I’ve turned down guys for the team that we’re stronger, faster, scored higher on prelims etc… sometimes the most qualified aren’t the right fit and that’s ok. Being a good dude goes a long way, for me atleast, and by all indications Flores was abrasive.

By the way what do you do for work? Just curious, no worries if you don’t feel like putting your business out on here.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

JO_75

Hall of Famer
I'm not sure about the racism claims but I'd say there's good enough evidence against Stephen Ross for going against the spirit of competition and paying your Head Coach to lose games. Then said owner invests in a sports gambling startup, considering how in bed the NFL seems to be with sports betting now... it seems like the next big scandal would be a betting scandal involving a ref fixing a game to ensure he won money or something.

 

RaineV1

Ravens Ring of Honor
I mean... the only problem I have is that the media, and especially the Dolphins media and fanbase, look VERY bad in this case.
Most of the Dolphins media, and tons of its fanbase, wanted the Dolphins to lose in 2019. There are tweets, social media posts, articles everywhere that are coming forward that show beat writers criticizing the Dolphins for not tanking, and NOW, they come out and say its outrageous that the Owners would incentive a coach to lose.

That's a staggering level of lack of self-awareness and hypocrisy. Like an embarrassing level. You want the team to lose, but you don't want to know how they lose or why they lose? LOL.

Honestly, an organization "tanking" by actively putting out a roster that isn't competitive, is like 100x worse to me than any "bribe" to a coach or player to not perform well ever would be. I think its impossible to conjure up an argument otherwise to be honest.

Does intentionally not building a roster to compete have negative consequences on player performance, how they're subsequently evaluated, and even their compensation? Yes, yes it does. Does it have an impact on coaching, how they're evaluated, and how they're compensated? Yes, yes it does.

The public can play their little arbitrary morality card of "competitive disadvantage" and blah blah blah. I saw many Ravens fans on this board partially rooting for the Ravens to lose in week 17 so we could get a better draft pick, and a better schedule. So that's OK, but if you found out Steve paid John a bonus to lose, that would somehow be outrageous? The outcome is exactly what you wanted, but you didn't like how the outcome was reached?

Sorry, that sounds incredibly ignorant to me.
There's a difference between fans wanting a better draft position and actively rigging matches. Going beyond the betting and match fixing side of it, it really fucks with the careers of many players and coaches. Careers in the NFL can be incredibly short, and a HC, GM or owner fucking over your image can cost you millions, and leave you out of the league.
 
Yeah this post doesn't make any sense.
You'll have a hard time selling anybody that many of his Patriots teams that won the SB were "great teams". Major talent and personnel issues up and down most of those lineups.
The best part about Brady's legacies are the teams where he has some of the best offensive weapons around, he didn't win a SB.

There's no such thing as being "lucky" for two decades. People who think that way should have their opinions swiftly and firmly dismissed as pure ignorance.

You lost me a bit after you said many of the Patriots SB winning teams weren't great. They mostly were great teams (not necessarily with great players, but with players that fit the team/scheme. Great TEAMS), at least until the last year when they clearly needed some rebuilding. Any holes in those teams were made up for with great coaching and scheming (i.e.: using RBs and TEs more often in the passing game), and they always had very good/excellent defenses with the greatest football mind of all time at HC. Any other top 7 or so QB in the league at the time would have won just as many in the same situation. Heck, Matt Cassel took them to an 11-5 record when TB was hurt and he sucked. I consider him lucky because he has never had to play on a bad team, and either was with Belichick or the All-Pro team down in Tampa, and because a lot of those playoff and SB wins were very close. One call, one drop, one missed FG, one anything going differently in some of those games and TB has a very different legacy. Luck plays a major part. Yes he helped put them in a position to win, but more often than not their defense did way more to do that than Tom in my opinion.

And yeah, I know he lost with the best offense he had in NE... Because he ran into the Giants who completely shut him down in the biggest potential moment of his career with a defense that put him on his ass.

Regardless of your opinion, I'm entitled to mine as well which is shared by many other very knowledgeable football people I know. I know many who consider him great or the greatest too. Both sides of the debate are entitled to their opinion and I respect that. Then again, I only consider great to mean the top 2-3 players at the position in the era. By that measure I consider Tom very good and a top 5-7 QB of his era. I put Peyton, Brees, and Rodgers ahead of him for his era off the top of my head.

I understand if you have a different opinion and completely respect yours. But you inferring that I am ignorant due to having an opinion that is different than yours is... well... ignorant and disrespectful.
 
that 2nd thread with the excerpts from the lawsuit is pretty damaging

the giants should have just paid the fine like the raiders did when they were hiring gruden - acknowledge that they knew who their guy was all along and pay the fine and no one would actually have had any real issue with it

While Daboll was always the top guy, there were several Giants insiders who thought that Flores was very close to getting the job. This included reports that Mara wanted to hire Flores. They were giving him a legitimate shot at the job (and he was one of three black candidates). From what I heard it was made very clear in that interview process, and his history, that he wouldn't mesh well with new GM Schoen. The Giants part of the lawsuit is a joke. The rest of it though should make for some very interesting reading.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
You lost me a bit after you said many of the Patriots SB winning teams weren't great. They mostly were great teams (not necessarily with great players, but with players that fit the team/scheme. Great TEAMS), at least until the last year when they clearly needed some rebuilding. Any holes in those teams were made up for with great coaching and scheming (i.e.: using RBs and TEs more often in the passing game), and they always had very good/excellent defenses with the greatest football mind of all time at HC. Any other top 7 or so QB in the league at the time would have won just as many in the same situation. Heck, Matt Cassel took them to an 11-5 record when TB was hurt and he sucked. I consider him lucky because he has never had to play on a bad team, and either was with Belichick or the All-Pro team down in Tampa, and because a lot of those playoff and SB wins were very close. One call, one drop, one missed FG, one anything going differently in some of those games and TB has a very different legacy. Luck plays a major part. Yes he helped put them in a position to win, but more often than not their defense did way more to do that than Tom in my opinion.

And yeah, I know he lost with the best offense he had in NE... Because he ran into the Giants who completely shut him down in the biggest potential moment of his career with a defense that put him on his ass.

Regardless of your opinion, I'm entitled to mine as well which is shared by many other very knowledgeable football people I know. I know many who consider him great or the greatest too. Both sides of the debate are entitled to their opinion and I respect that. Then again, I only consider great to mean the top 2-3 players at the position in the era. By that measure I consider Tom very good and a top 5-7 QB of his era. I put Peyton, Brees, and Rodgers ahead of him for his era off the top of my head.

I understand if you have a different opinion and completely respect yours. But you inferring that I am ignorant due to having an opinion that is different than yours is... well... ignorant and disrespectful.
But he never played on a bad team because of his greatness and because of Belichick's greatness. When you have the two greatest people at the two most important positions on a football team, its pretty damn hard to be bad. They elevate everybody around them to be better than they probably normally are. That's kind of how greatness works.

Luck is largely a figment of people's imagination. It's not real. Luck is lottery balls rolling around in a machine. Luck isn't "one play here, one play there". Every single play and outcome is dictated by execution or lack of execution by somebody. Fumbles aren't luck. Interceptions aren't luck. Luck is what people who are "unlucky" tell themselves occurs when they failed to prepare or execute something at a level that would have made them "lucky". It's because they lack the self-awareness or skills to acknowledge their own shortcomings.

I could get behind an argument for Peyton Manning as being better, though that would obviously be predominantly a "statistical" argument, but I don't think the Brees or Rodgers argument really hold much weight. Rodgers specifically. He's not even in the stratosphere of a Brady or Manning in terms of leadership. I would say the majority of Brady's teams overachieved in terms of talent and skill sets, while the majority of Rodgers teams underachieve greatly on an annual basis. Their leadership abilities aren't close in my opinion.
 
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