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Signings, Cuts, Trades

rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Edgar said:
more and more I am liking the idea of the franchise tag being applied to Judon. If the worst case scenario is paying hm 16million to play SAM for a year while giving you an opportunity to sign him long term, I don't think that is a bad thing; or at least it is preferable to breaking the bank on Clowney. 23 million is a number being bandied around? No way on earth
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this is the game we're going to have to play - is the difference between keeping judon and letting him go worth the price of keeping him

i saw your post and it made me want to go back and watch all of his sacks this year to see what i could find - here are some notes:

  • on every single sack the ravens rushed 5 or more (3 of the 10 were rush 6) - i say 10 because i have no idea which of the sacks he was given a half for - looks like the buffalo one but idk - looks like he got there first to me a bit harsh to keep him away from double figures for that
  • interestingly ive only got 2 of the 10 sacks as coverage sacks (the crazy long developing one against the texans where he forced a fumble but did not create any pressure at all before hand and one against the Bills where he wasnt even part of the initial rush - ironically on this bills sack he was lined up at ILB next to Chuck clark and looked like he was a spy on josh allen and came late to the rush
  • 3 of the 10 sacks he was 1v1 with a TE - against the Rams, Bills and Steelers
  • some other miscellaneous interesting things: his 2nd sack against the texans he was lined up at 3T with Ward outside him - but its hard to evaluate how good he was in that role on that sack because the left side of the Texans OL decided they werent going to block anyone and completely jailbreak the play
  • he created 4 forced fumbles on those 10 sacks - 3 were turnovers (the 4th should have been but chuck clark went for the scoop and score rather than the turnover against the rams albeit we were up 21-3 at the time)
to me while it was comforting to see that most of his sacks were not coverage sacks, it was disappointing that most of his sacks seemed to come from scheming up easier matchups by rushing numbers and leaving him singled and sometimes that single blocker would be a tight end too - its great that he exploited those situations but given how many of them he had over the year I would have expected him to take advantage of those matchups a little more frequently - he obviously offers more in the passing game than just his pass rushing but if we're going to tag him or give him a long-term deal he needs to be a good pass rusher that you can build a pass rush around and i dont really see that from judon at all - he's a great complementary piece but he's not someone that will beat a double team or force extra protection his way

he's a good player but im not sure i want him for 16m

but you're right... ultimately what's the alternative?

if we do keep him (and im expecting we will somehow) we really need to put other pass rushers around him to draw attention - if we keep him we need to get him a running mate on the other edge or from the interior who's actually a pass rushing threat
 
JoeyFlex5

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
rossihunter2 said:
this is the game we're going to have to play - is the difference between keeping judon and letting him go worth the price of keeping him

i saw your post and it made me want to go back and watch all of his sacks this year to see what i could find - here are some notes:

  • on every single sack the ravens rushed 5 or more (3 of the 10 were rush 6) - i say 10 because i have no idea which of the sacks he was given a half for - looks like the buffalo one but idk - looks like he got there first to me a bit harsh to keep him away from double figures for that
  • interestingly ive only got 2 of the 10 sacks as coverage sacks (the crazy long developing one against the texans where he forced a fumble but did not create any pressure at all before hand and one against the Bills where he wasnt even part of the initial rush - ironically on this bills sack he was lined up at ILB next to Chuck clark and looked like he was a spy on josh allen and came late to the rush
  • 3 of the 10 sacks he was 1v1 with a TE - against the Rams, Bills and Steelers
  • some other miscellaneous interesting things: his 2nd sack against the texans he was lined up at 3T with Ward outside him - but its hard to evaluate how good he was in that role on that sack because the left side of the Texans OL decided they werent going to block anyone and completely jailbreak the play
  • he created 4 forced fumbles on those 10 sacks - 3 were turnovers (the 4th should have been but chuck clark went for the scoop and score rather than the turnover against the rams albeit we were up 21-3 at the time)
to me while it was comforting to see that most of his sacks were not coverage sacks, it was disappointing that most of his sacks seemed to come from scheming up easier matchups by rushing numbers and leaving him singled and sometimes that single blocker would be a tight end too - its great that he exploited those situations but given how many of them he had over the year I would have expected him to take advantage of those matchups a little more frequently - he obviously offers more in the passing game than just his pass rushing but if we're going to tag him or give him a long-term deal he needs to be a good pass rusher that you can build a pass rush around and i dont really see that from judon at all - he's a great complementary piece but he's not someone that will beat a double team or force extra protection his way

he's a good player but im not sure i want him for 16m

but you're right... ultimately what's the alternative?

if we do keep him (and im expecting we will somehow) we really need to put other pass rushers around him to draw attention - if we keep him we need to get him a running mate on the other edge or from the interior who's actually a pass rushing threat
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im not comfortable paying that money to a guy who got every single sack on a blitz, it shows he can’t create pressure, and Judon will get over 16m per, you don’t pay a guy that money if he can’t create pressure.

I absolute would take that money and then some to get a superior player like clowney, I know the numbers don’t support what I’m saying, but clowneys impact has never been easily quantified by numbers, he’s consistently been a dominant force in all 3 downs, Judon hasn’t, and we can get more from clowney for only a little bit more than Judon will cost.

then there’s guys like Kerrigan who is an absolute dream fit and the kind of guy that just screams ravens edge to me, if he can be had for a late third or a day 3 pick, yeah sign me up. Judon just isn’t worth what he’s gonna get and I’ll take the risk before I weigh down our cap with that.
 
cdp

cdp

Ravens Ring of Honor
JoeyFlex5 said:
im not comfortable paying that money to a guy who got every single sack on a blitz, it shows he can’t create pressure, and Judon will get over 16m per, you don’t pay a guy that money if he can’t create pressure.

I absolute would take that money and then some to get a superior player like clowney, I know the numbers don’t support what I’m saying, but clowneys impact has never been easily quantified by numbers, he’s consistently been a dominant force in all 3 downs, Judon hasn’t, and we can get more from clowney for only a little bit more than Judon will cost.

then there’s guys like Kerrigan who is an absolute dream fit and the kind of guy that just screams ravens edge to me, if he can be had for a late third or a day 3 pick, yeah sign me up. Judon just isn’t worth what he’s gonna get and I’ll take the risk before I weigh down our cap with that.
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I'd rather sign Judon than Clowney. 1st Clowney always misses a couple of games a season whereas Judon has never been injured since hes turned pro. 2nd Clowney is reportedly looking for 23M+, I mean at least we know what we can expect from Judon and he's more versatile.
Judon and let's say Scherff or Calais >>> Clowney. I don't want us to spend elite money on a 2nd tier pass rusher.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
cdp said:
I'd rather sign Judon than Clowney. 1st Clowney always misses a couple of games a season whereas Judon has never been injured since hes turned pro. 2nd Clowney is reportedly looking for 23M+, I mean at least we know what we can expect from Judon and he's more versatile.
Judon and let's say Scherff or Calais >>> Clowney. I don't want us to spend elite money on a 2nd tier pass rusher.
Click to expand...

i mean let's be clear we're not going to be going after a clowney if we dont get judon - we'll be shopping at the 2nd tier of free agency where the better deals always happen - at most we'll make 1 splash but it wont be for one of the absolute top of free agency guys - hopefully we start to see some cuts too

calais campbell if he's cut would be a good target depending on what his market looks like

and we're talking about clowney like it's 100% he's not getting re-signed by seattle - obviously they agreed not to franchise him which takes away some leverage but id still be surprised if they dont get a long-term deal done with him and if not then he's going to be out of our price range

honestly i dont really want us to pay judon either but i think we're going to keep him
 
JoeyFlex5

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
cdp said:
I'd rather sign Judon than Clowney. 1st Clowney always misses a couple of games a season whereas Judon has never been injured since hes turned pro. 2nd Clowney is reportedly looking for 23M+, I mean at least we know what we can expect from Judon and he's more versatile.
Judon and let's say Scherff or Calais >>> Clowney. I don't want us to spend elite money on a 2nd tier pass rusher.
Click to expand...
If clowney is looking for 23m then nvm and fuck that lol. Still would try to tag and trade, if he stays then we have an edge guy for a year, if we get a trade then awesome.

My ideal scenario would be tag and trade Judon, no lower than a 3+4, hope for a 2, offer something like a 4 for Kerrigan, or maybe a 3 if they toss in a pick as well, then hope like hell Calais Campbell does hit FA and do all you can to sign him.

that’s a strong handful of moves that gives you a strong front for 2 years or so to maximize Lamar’s rookie deal window, then you can address WR and OL in the draft, go in early on OL like round 2 so you get a quality guy and then double dip at wr in rounds 3 and 4. BPA in round 1 could very well fall in line with our last major need, ILB, Kenneth Murray is a real option for me there.

this is a shitload of what ifs but just kinda playing out a dream scenario. Also, there’s some bargain ILBs due to hit the market like trevathan and that other guy who’s name and team is completely absent from me right now.
 
JAAM

JAAM

Hall of Famer
I want Calais so bad
 
JoeyFlex5

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
Jags should be in full rebuild mode right now, I could see them letting a lot of guys walk, cutting a lot of guys, and making trades. They might be too oblivious to do so but they seriously don’t stand a chance and are looking like a 4-12 or worse type of team right now who will be even worse in the following years. They have some young talent but don’t have a core in place, players don’t wanna stay because of toxic management apparently, and they’ve been pretty bad at drafting other than dumb luck(like Josh Allen’s fall, and cam Robinson actually turning out to be a solid OT).

if they were smart they’d cut bait, tag and trade ngakoue, cut Campbell and dareus, let Myles jack walk, see if they can trade fournette, foles and bouye, and then start building the trenches with all that ammunition and let the rest come to them.
 
Edgar

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
rossihunter2 said:
this is the game we're going to have to play - is the difference between keeping judon and letting him go worth the price of keeping him

i saw your post and it made me want to go back and watch all of his sacks this year to see what i could find - here are some notes:

  • on every single sack the ravens rushed 5 or more (3 of the 10 were rush 6) - i say 10 because i have no idea which of the sacks he was given a half for - looks like the buffalo one but idk - looks like he got there first to me a bit harsh to keep him away from double figures for that
  • interestingly ive only got 2 of the 10 sacks as coverage sacks (the crazy long developing one against the texans where he forced a fumble but did not create any pressure at all before hand and one against the Bills where he wasnt even part of the initial rush - ironically on this bills sack he was lined up at ILB next to Chuck clark and looked like he was a spy on josh allen and came late to the rush
  • 3 of the 10 sacks he was 1v1 with a TE - against the Rams, Bills and Steelers
  • some other miscellaneous interesting things: his 2nd sack against the texans he was lined up at 3T with Ward outside him - but its hard to evaluate how good he was in that role on that sack because the left side of the Texans OL decided they werent going to block anyone and completely jailbreak the play
  • he created 4 forced fumbles on those 10 sacks - 3 were turnovers (the 4th should have been but chuck clark went for the scoop and score rather than the turnover against the rams albeit we were up 21-3 at the time)
to me while it was comforting to see that most of his sacks were not coverage sacks, it was disappointing that most of his sacks seemed to come from scheming up easier matchups by rushing numbers and leaving him singled and sometimes that single blocker would be a tight end too - its great that he exploited those situations but given how many of them he had over the year I would have expected him to take advantage of those matchups a little more frequently - he obviously offers more in the passing game than just his pass rushing but if we're going to tag him or give him a long-term deal he needs to be a good pass rusher that you can build a pass rush around and i dont really see that from judon at all - he's a great complementary piece but he's not someone that will beat a double team or force extra protection his way

he's a good player but im not sure i want him for 16m

but you're right... ultimately what's the alternative?

if we do keep him (and im expecting we will somehow) we really need to put other pass rushers around him to draw attention - if we keep him we need to get him a running mate on the other edge or from the interior who's actually a pass rushing threat
Click to expand...
Nice stuff! He's definitely a piece and guys are certainly getting way more money than they are worth. I am encouraged by the fact that he managed to produce with literally no one opposite him. He is a good piece in this defense and we are potentially in a pinch if we let him walk, having to spend $ in FA and draft pass rushers.
Tagging him for a year is expensive but bringing in the right piece opposite him (as you mentioned) while we bring draft picks along enables us to move on a year from now if need be.
 
Edgar

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
JoeyFlex5 said:
im not comfortable paying that money to a guy who got every single sack on a blitz, it shows he can’t create pressure, and Judon will get over 16m per, you don’t pay a guy that money if he can’t create pressure.

I absolute would take that money and then some to get a superior player like clowney, I know the numbers don’t support what I’m saying, but clowneys impact has never been easily quantified by numbers, he’s consistently been a dominant force in all 3 downs, Judon hasn’t, and we can get more from clowney for only a little bit more than Judon will cost.

then there’s guys like Kerrigan who is an absolute dream fit and the kind of guy that just screams ravens edge to me, if he can be had for a late third or a day 3 pick, yeah sign me up. Judon just isn’t worth what he’s gonna get and I’ll take the risk before I weigh down our cap with that.
Click to expand...
The supposed price tag on Clowney is beyond ridiculous.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Edgar said:
Nice stuff! He's definitely a piece and guys are certainly getting way more money than they are worth. I am encouraged by the fact that he managed to produce with literally no one opposite him. He is a good piece in this defense and we are potentially in a pinch if we let him walk, having to spend $ in FA and draft pass rushers.
Tagging him for a year is expensive but bringing in the right piece opposite him (as you mentioned) while we bring draft picks along enables us to move on a year from now if need be.
Click to expand...

i think the worry for me is that while he produced without help from other pass rushers, he did have the aid of numbers helping give him 1v1 on a consistent basis - he did a good job dominating against players he should dominate against but i worry what this pass rush would look like if we had to consistently rush 4 - not sure whether judon has the ability to get home often in those sorts of situations - and i know schematically we're not building our defence around rushing 4 but if you arent a threat when you only rush 4 then it limits you schematically and you have to create pressure via deception rather than other ways

ill put it this way - if we had any other consistent edge rusher on the team id be happy for judon to leave - and it worries me that the main reason he might stay is because we have a bare cupboard and that's not really how you build a team on good value

this might be one of the trickiest offseason decisions for a long time
 
SepticeyePoe

SepticeyePoe

Hall of Famer
I got a breaking transaction alert from the Ravens app and got excited. Then I saw it was Jordan Richards. Still a good signing, but not one that I was hoping for.
 
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