Signings, Cuts, Trades

[rmcjacket23]

they always say "you can never have too many corners" and almost every year they're proven right - last year we finally thought we had enough and we still ended up playing games with multiple randos signed off the streets only a week earlier...

but generally, while safety looks to be more of a "need", i think you can lump CB and S together somewhat this year in terms of the need because of jimmy and we'll be drafting a DB no doubt but it might not necessarily be both - or we might even find a guy who fills both needs as a hybrid safety/nickel type...

there seem to be a ton of those kinds of guys in college and a fair few in this draft (some listed as safeties and some as corners and a couple even as LBs lol) - kary vincent jr, elijah molden, james wiggins, ardarius washington, trevon moehrig, jevon holland, joshuah bledsoe, jeremiah owusu-koramoah

I mean I think it comes down to you probably "want" one but not necessarily boths. Like with the number of picks we currently have, I'm not going to be super thrilled about using 2 of 7 draft picks on DBs. Like maybe if one is a 7th rounder OK.

Even if you take a Safety, it means Jimmy can be depth at either position. Plus, even if you end up with 1-2 injuries at CB, Averett is still effectively your 4th corner (or 5th if you still consider Jimmy a Corner).

I just have a hard time finding the "role" another DB would play, beyond like a ST/depth player. If you use a first or 2nd round pick on a Safety, they may start over likely Elliott (assuming that's the role they want), which would push Elliott into a dime role and be a very strong their Safety. With any Corner, the path to playing time is much shorter.

And I would think this year, more than a lot of years, our objective in the early rounds is to get guys that can contribute right away. We've got enough "needs" that I don't think we should be banking on "project" players.

 

[RavensMania]

especially looking at the weaker back-end of the 1st round (in terms of draft grades) and super strong top of the 2nd round (in terms of draft grades) in this draft class - would be a big advocate for trading completely out of the 1st unless someone awesome is there - if we could find a way to add an extra day 2 pick that would be amazing

definitely would be in favor of trading back into the 2nd but you need a trade partner.

 

[ndub]

Just curious. Have any of our drafts been good when we trade completely out of the first?

 

[rossihunter2]

Just curious. Have any of our drafts been good when we trade completely out of the first?

we haven't done it for a while and we've only done it twice in team history: 2010 and 2012...

neither class was particularly great but we did at least find high level talents in each just not with our top pick... (2010 was the sergio kindle pick and 2012 our first pick was courtney upshaw)

but we managed to get dennis pitta in 2010 and kelechi osemele in 2012

in terms of other contributors 2010 had Pitta, Ed Dickson and Arthur Jones (who we flipped for a 4th round comp pick in the 2015 class)
and 2012 had Osemele but also Upshaw and Bernard Pierce (who was instrumental in that playoff run)

in 2010 it's also worth pointing out that we didn't have a ton of picks and had just had dez bryant sniped from the spot in front of us so we traded out with denver (to take Tebow) and got kindle, dickson and pitta from the picks we traded down for... and we didnt have any 3rd or 4th round picks before this because we'd used them on anquan boldin

so i'd say it's hard to tell really because we havent really done it enough to know - we're a team that loves to trade down and yet we've only traded out of the 1st round twice

 

[ndub]

we haven't done it for a while and we've only done it twice in team history: 2010 and 2012...

neither class was particularly great but we did at least find high level talents in each just not with our top pick... (2010 was the sergio kindle pick and 2012 our first pick was courtney upshaw)

but we managed to get dennis pitta in 2010 and kelechi osemele in 2012

in terms of other contributors 2010 had Pitta, Ed Dickson and Arthur Jones (who we flipped for a 4th round comp pick in the 2015 class)
and 2012 had Osemele but also Upshaw and Bernard Pierce (who was instrumental in that playoff run)

in 2010 it's also worth pointing out that we didn't have a ton of picks and had just had dez bryant sniped from the spot in front of us so we traded out with denver (to take Tebow) and got kindle, dickson and pitta from the picks we traded down for... and we didnt have any 3rd or 4th round picks before this because we'd used them on anquan boldin

so i'd say it's hard to tell really because we havent really done it enough to know - we're a team that loves to trade down and yet we've only traded out of the 1st round twice

I appreciate the analysis, it’s truly helpful to discuss. But, the answer is summarized best as no

 

[rossihunter2]

I appreciate the analysis, it’s truly helpful to discuss. But, the answer is summarized best as no

i mean i agree the 2 we've had were not good - but i dont see that as being in any way instructive because doing something twice in 26 years isn't a big sample size and they're not particularly recent either...

i dont think it's really indicative of anything that's instructive for the future because of how much luck inherently plays in the draft generally

what's probably worth noting is that we've not got a great track record in the 2nd round despite that being the round in which most teams find the most value (relative to draft position)

the list of 2nd round picks we've made since 2010:
Sergio Kindle
Terrence Cody
Torrey Smith
Courtney Upshaw
Kelechi Osemele
Arthur Brown
Timmy Jernigan
Maxx Williams
Kamalei Correa
Tyus Bowser
JK Dobbins

only 1 of those 2nd rounders made it to a 2nd contract (Tyus Bowser who we just re-signed) and it was very much a value deal where he wasn't in high demand in the rest of the NFL

I'm pretty sure we only offered 2 others on the list deals - Kelechi Osemele who we made a concerted effort to keep but he got massive money elsewhere (and seemingly there was a relationship issue too) and Torrey Smith who again found better money on the open market but we didn't feel like he was irreplaceable

JK Dobbins has been great in his rookie year but obviously running backs are massively devalued

5 of the 11 didn't even make it to the end of their rookie deal...

 

[ndub]

i mean i agree the 2 we've had were not good - but i dont see that as being in any way instructive because doing something twice in 26 years isn't a big sample size and they're not particularly recent either...

i dont think it's really indicative of anything that's instructive for the future because of how much luck inherently plays in the draft generally

what's probably worth noting is that we've not got a great track record in the 2nd round despite that being the round in which most teams find the most value (relative to draft position)

the list of 2nd round picks we've made since 2010:
Sergio Kindle
Terrence Cody
Torrey Smith
Courtney Upshaw
Kelechi Osemele
Arthur Brown
Timmy Jernigan
Maxx Williams
Kamalei Correa
Tyus Bowser
JK Dobbins

only 1 of those 2nd rounders made it to a 2nd contract (Tyus Bowser who we just re-signed) and it was very much a value deal where he wasn't in high demand in the rest of the NFL

I'm pretty sure we only offered 2 others on the list deals - Kelechi Osemele who we made a concerted effort to keep but he got massive money elsewhere (and seemingly there was a relationship issue too) and Torrey Smith who again found better money on the open market but we didn't feel like he was irreplaceable

JK Dobbins has been great in his rookie year but obviously running backs are massively devalued

5 of the 11 didn't even make it to the end of their rookie deal...

That’s my point though. We rarely hit on 2nd rounders. Meaning it doesn’t matter if we had three 2nd round picks, our track record is not good with those picks

 

[drjohnnyfever]

I always hope that drafted players can contribute in a meaningful way immediately; it doesn't happen too often, but it does. Mostly with 1st and second rounders when it does. I think this year will yield no immediate help from the draft. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but this is going to be as difficult a draft as there has ever been. I don't hold much stock in what we saw from college players last year with Covid. It's just my opinion, but things players would do normally to develop over the course of a college season were different to the point of being a distraction, imo. All our picks could look great on paper, but any or all could turn out like Matt Elam. And I think this is the case for ALL teams, not just us.

 

[Sandtown]

idk about tate - but adams had some traits that were showing up and he was still flashing in individual games early in his career the ability to become a good player (and ultimately top 5 WR in the league) he realised he needed to change something

part of the reason im so excited about keith williams is that he took a guy with all the potential that davante adams had and rebuilt him as a route runner and transformed him into this elite route runner

i just dont see the same tools and traits from boykin (nor the production - when we say adams took a leap, his baseline was still 400+ yards) that would suggest he could make that sort of leap - if he does then we need to find a way to make sure we never let keith williams leave the organisation...

for those interested here's an article (athletic) on coach "dubb" and davante adams https://theathletic.co.uk/2338503/2021/01/22/davante-adams-packers-fresno-state/?redirected=1

That understandable and i'm excited about Keith Williams as well. When talking about Davante Adams especially his second season in The NFl it was considered to be pretty disappointing especially since that was the year when Jordy Nelson missed most of the year due to a ACL tear in 2015. He ended up having 483 receiving yards,1 touchdown and averaged 9.7 yards per catch to go along with being targeted 93 times. That's not good and after that season there were mentioning that he could be a cut candidate.Each year when Adams had 400+ receving yards during his first two years in The NFl he received more targets than Boykins. His first year he had 66 targets while Boykins only had 22 then in his second year he had 93 targets while Boykins had only 33 targets. I'm not saying that Boykins is elite or a great receiver but do we really think he wouldn't have been just as productive receiving yards wise if he got just as many targets? Of course Boykins needs to get better as receiver to get as many of those targets but at the same time The Packer's offense at that time is different from The Ravens/ Greg Roman offense especially from philosophy stand point.

Hopefully Keith Williams and Tee Martin can get more out of The Ravens receivers because I don't think they want to ideally count on Sammy Watkins for most of the season.

 

[RavensMania]

That’s my point though. We rarely hit on 2nd rounders. Meaning it doesn’t matter if we had three 2nd round picks, our track record is not good with those picks

this is true, but DeCosta has only had one 2nd rounder, with the 2019 2nd rounder being traded to the Eagles to move up to draft Jackson. So lets give DeCosta more opportunities, because his first one seems to be a success with J.K. Dobbins.

 

[rossihunter2]

That understandable and i'm excited about Keith Williams as well. When talking about Davante Adams especially his second season in The NFl it was considered to be pretty disappointing especially since that was the year when Jordy Nelson missed most of the year due to a ACL tear in 2015. He ended up having 483 receiving yards,1 touchdown and averaged 9.7 yards per catch to go along with being targeted 93 times. That's not good and after that season there were mentioning that he could be a cut candidate.Each year when Adams had 400+ receving yards during his first two years in The NFl he received more targets than Boykins. His first year he had 66 targets while Boykins only had 22 then in his second year he had 93 targets while Boykins had only 33 targets. I'm not saying that Boykins is elite or a great receiver but do we really think he wouldn't have been just as productive receiving yards wise if he got just as many targets? Of course Boykins needs to get better as receiver to get as many of those targets but at the same time The Packer's offense at that time is different from The Ravens/ Greg Roman offense especially from philosophy stand point.

Hopefully Keith Williams and Tee Martin can get more out of The Ravens receivers because I don't think they want to ideally count on Sammy Watkins for most of the season.

right but contextually boykin's never had multi-catch big games - he's always been the 3rd (at best) receiver who at most got 3 or 4 targets and maybe 1 deep shot

as a rookie davante adams had at least 1 game where he went over 100 yds and a couple of other nice games - his 2nd season was disappointing but even then he had a few nice games

and you have to earn targets by getting open...
miles has just 2 career games where he had 5 or more targets - one was the texans game in week 2 this year where he had 5 targets and caught 4 for 38 yds... and the other was the titans 2019 game where we threw the ball nearly 60 times and andrews was injured... and he only caught 3 for 26 yds

the context is important - so i really dont see miles being more productive because you dont just get given targets - if we threw more, sure he'd get more targets but i dont think it would be as many as you think - especially because of the style of receiver he is - a lot of those extra targets would be replacing running snaps which likely means play-action, rpo or quick-short passes - miles isn't someone who has ever got open at the snap with any consistency - would be more likely an increase in production for someone like snead on spot routes or quick outs behind a clear out (probably run by boykin) or it would be duvernay picking up pop passes or screens or it would be any number of other things relating to andrews and hollywood

just dont see how boykin earns those extra targets without having them forced his way and he's shown he's not going to do anything with those targets...

 

[JAAM]

In terms of visits, the ones that would make me happy right now are clowney or ingram

Or curveball...
Bernard Pollard just so we can reject him in person

I wouldn’t blame Harbs for being petty at all and pulling some shit like that lol

 

[rossihunter2]

I wouldn’t blame Harbs for being petty at all and pulling some shit like that lol

would have tons of respect for harbs if this was genuinely what he did lol

 

[ndub]

I always hope that drafted players can contribute in a meaningful way immediately; it doesn't happen too often, but it does. Mostly with 1st and second rounders when it does. I think this year will yield no immediate help from the draft. I'll be happy to be proven wrong, but this is going to be as difficult a draft as there has ever been. I don't hold much stock in what we saw from college players last year with Covid. It's just my opinion, but things players would do normally to develop over the course of a college season were different to the point of being a distraction, imo. All our picks could look great on paper, but any or all could turn out like Matt Elam. And I think this is the case for ALL teams, not just us.

Yeah but what about the fact the rookie class last year didn’t have a true offseason, meaning they had to learn pretty much everything on the fly and not get a ton of time in the NFL weight room with other teammates? I think your concern is valid but I do think this past year was harder

 

[RavensMania]

Yeah but what about the fact the rookie class last year didn’t have a true offseason, meaning they had to learn pretty much everything on the fly and not get a ton of time in the NFL weight room with other teammates? I think your concern is valid but I do think this past year was harder

and you have to take this into account. Whether you like PFF or not, there was information basing the rookie class vs previous rookie classes and last years class just didn't do anywhere near the previous classes. Of course you had your standouts, ie Chase Young, Justin Jefferson, etc.., but overall the lack of OTAs, Training Camp, and preseason games was not good on their development. I believe there will be a huge jump from year one to year two with the 2020 class as a whole.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

we haven't done it for a while and we've only done it twice in team history: 2010 and 2012...

neither class was particularly great but we did at least find high level talents in each just not with our top pick... (2010 was the sergio kindle pick and 2012 our first pick was courtney upshaw)

but we managed to get dennis pitta in 2010 and kelechi osemele in 2012

in terms of other contributors 2010 had Pitta, Ed Dickson and Arthur Jones (who we flipped for a 4th round comp pick in the 2015 class)
and 2012 had Osemele but also Upshaw and Bernard Pierce (who was instrumental in that playoff run)

in 2010 it's also worth pointing out that we didn't have a ton of picks and had just had dez bryant sniped from the spot in front of us so we traded out with denver (to take Tebow) and got kindle, dickson and pitta from the picks we traded down for... and we didnt have any 3rd or 4th round picks before this because we'd used them on anquan boldin

so i'd say it's hard to tell really because we havent really done it enough to know - we're a team that loves to trade down and yet we've only traded out of the 1st round twice

Didn’t we trade out of the first the year we drafted dwan edwards?

 

[Dom McRaven]

I wouldn’t blame Harbs for being petty at all and pulling some shit like that lol

would have tons of respect for harbs if this was genuinely what he did lol

And THAT would be a contender for the Nobel Peace Prize.

 

[rossihunter2]

Didn’t we trade out of the first the year we drafted dwan edwards?

no - we just didn't have a 1st that year - traded it away the year before i think for kyle boller

 

[RavensMania]

no - we just didn't have a 1st that year - traded it away the year before i think for kyle boller

Pit of Misery for Kyle Boller

 

[Edgar]

no - we just didn't have a 1st that year - traded it away the year before i think for kyle boller

Thats pretty grim