Signings, Cuts, Trades

[rmcjacket23]

I know it's not possible, but hypothetically if we could guarantee that we would sign say Houston and Ingram after the draft for 2-3 yrs, would you consider taking Barmore at 27?

We've got some v old, v expensive players on the DL who I don't expect to be around this time next year and it would be fun to pair him with Madubuike.

Defensive line and Safety are the two positions that I think most fans are not considering as necessarily "problem" areas, but are very much areas I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ravens address early and possibly often in this draft.

We're all focused on pass rushers from a linebacker/outside perspective. One way to improve your pass rush is to get better push from the interior also, and that can come from the Dline. I think they'll be looking to add players who can get to the QB, largely regardless of position.

 

[Charm City]

Defensive line and Safety are the two positions that I think most fans are not considering as necessarily "problem" areas, but are very much areas I wouldn't be surprised to see the Ravens address early and possibly often in this draft.

We're all focused on pass rushers from a linebacker/outside perspective. One way to improve your pass rush is to get better push from the interior also, and that can come from the Dline. I think they'll be looking to add players who can get to the QB, largely regardless of position.

Along those same lines, many of us on the boards were frustrated when we took Dobbins last year given our run game was historic and we still had ingram and Gus on the team. EDC noticed that Ingram was aging and decided to preempt us needing to take a RB this year by taking Dobbins last year. We're in a similar situation at safety with Elliot being our only proven asset at the position, who is in a contract year. If we end up taking Grant or Moerhig early to prevent us from being pigeon-holed next offseason, I would not be surprised.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Along those same lines, many of us on the boards were frustrated when we took Dobbins last year given our run game was historic and we still had ingram and Gus on the team. EDC noticed that Ingram was aging and decided to preempt us needing to take a RB this year by taking Dobbins last year. We're in a similar situation at safety with Elliot being our only proven asset at the position, who is in a contract year. If we end up taking Grant or Moerhig early to prevent us from being pigeon-holed next offseason, I would not be surprised.

Well I think everybody and their mother knew Ingram only had like one year left. The issue was that Edwards is clearly not a "bell cow" that you give like 25 carries to a game, nor is he much of a pass catcher.

I don't think people hated the idea of drafting Dobbins. They just hated the idea of a RB in the second round. I think a lot of people believe that you could use a day 3 pick on a RB, and he could largely excel in an offense like this, because realistically, most backs in this league, I think, can excel in an offense like this. Probably more applicable to the 19 running game than the 20 running game, but still.

I'm mostly pointing out that the team clearly values things differently than fans do in many cases, and I think there's a large contingent of fans who think our only selections in this draft should basically be receivers, Olineman, and pass rushers. I'm already on record as suggesting that the FO doesn't view WR as nearly as big of a "need" as the fanbase does. They've drafted four WRs in the last two years, three of which have come in the first 3 rounds. And they signed Watkins. It wouldn't shock me in the slightest if you don't hear a WRs name called until day 3 of this draft. It also wouldn't shock me to see a TE get drafted before a receiver does by this team.

I think they're going to prioritize pass rushers (regardless of position), Oline (likely Tackle, which may even surprise some people), Safety and Dline.

 

[rossihunter2]

Along those same lines, many of us on the boards were frustrated when we took Dobbins last year given our run game was historic and we still had ingram and Gus on the team. EDC noticed that Ingram was aging and decided to preempt us needing to take a RB this year by taking Dobbins last year. We're in a similar situation at safety with Elliot being our only proven asset at the position, who is in a contract year. If we end up taking Grant or Moerhig early to prevent us from being pigeon-holed next offseason, I would not be surprised.

i mean this is why just sticking to the board is important because over 2 offseasons it's incredibly unlikely that there's a position on your roster that isn't a need

in 2021 we're looking immediately at WR, EDGE, IOL for potential starters immediately and that doesn't even include the depth we lack at S or OT
if we add in 2022 then we're looking at adding S, OT, CB, DL, TE and maybe even RB - you could argue LB too but let's not for the sake of argument

which would leave us looking at QB, FB and LB that aren't obviously needs at some point either this offseason or next offseason

of those 3, LB is the only position that's got any chance of being a BPA pick anywhere before day 3

which means that just sticking to your board you're likely filling a need in almost all scenarios (as long as you're taking a multi-year approach... which we know the ravens do)

so i wouldnt say that they explicitly addressed RB because they knew ingram was done or anything like that, but there was no reason for them not to think of RB as a need so when a player they had graded in the 1st round fell to the late 2nd, they didn't care what position he played and good things happen when you take good players that fall to you

if im being realistic though, the team is always looking for impact players in the first 3 rounds and your impact is limited if you're stuck down the depth chart behind quality players which does naturally mean that "needs" are going to be weighted towards more immediate ones - a CB without any slot or safety versatility is unlikely to earn much playing time this year unless they're a bonafide stud or there are injuries, a DL likely gets stuck behind the top 4 DL on the roster - a tackle won't play without injuries, a TE might but not a ton, a RB might but not a ton

which really leaves WR, EDGE, IOL and S (or generally versatile DB) as being the only rookie types who will be able to have a significant impact in year 1 - if we view ourselves as looking to contend this year then we need to try and garner as much impact and talent from the rookie class as possible which would suggest we tap these 4 positions in some way in the first 3 rounds

i will say this though - i do love JK and he's a perfect fit for this offence but i still don't generally love the idea of drafting RBs high - that being said, getting madubuike in the 3rd made up for it

 

[Ellicottraven]

If we can double dip with Houston + Kerrigan/Ingram I would be very pleased.

 

[purplepittabread88]

Would Houston be willing to wait a month? I feel we may lose out on some veteran pass rushers if we are waiting until after the draft.

I have no idea how contracts actually work and if this were to be legal, but I would be totally on board giving Houston an extra million dollars at the 8 million sack incentive if he is willing to wait to sign with us. I doubt he is in any rush to sign with a team as hes already made 150 million (maybe 100 mil in actually payed) in his career and who wants to do offseason programs.

 

[purplepittabread88]

I am the only person who thinks Dobbins is going to be an extremely special player for a long time? I often see so many people rate him as the third or 4th best running back from last years draft class but I would easily take him over anyone else. I think he will put up monster numbers in this offense and has agility and balance that is so so rare in a running back.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I have no idea how contracts actually work and if this were to be legal, but I would be totally on board giving Houston an extra million dollars at the 8 million sack incentive if he is willing to wait to sign with us. I doubt he is in any rush to sign with a team as hes already made 150 million (maybe 100 mil in actually payed) in his career and who wants to do offseason programs.

You can absolutely bake incentives into player contracts. It's done all the time. The only kind of "downside" of certain incentives is that they'll count against next years cap in a lot of cases if they're obtained, because you'd likely need to wait until the season ends before we can determine if they're achieved.

Common milestones can be what you described, like # of sacks, yardage, catches, TDs, etc., but probably the most common are individual or team awards, i.e. incentives for Pro Bowls, All Pro teams, MVPs, and SB wins, etc.

 

[cdp]

i mean this is why just sticking to the board is important because over 2 offseasons it's incredibly unlikely that there's a position on your roster that isn't a need

in 2021 we're looking immediately at WR, EDGE, IOL for potential starters immediately and that doesn't even include the depth we lack at S or OT
if we add in 2022 then we're looking at adding S, OT, CB, DL, TE and maybe even RB - you could argue LB too but let's not for the sake of argument

which would leave us looking at QB, FB and LB that aren't obviously needs at some point either this offseason or next offseason

of those 3, LB is the only position that's got any chance of being a BPA pick anywhere before day 3

which means that just sticking to your board you're likely filling a need in almost all scenarios (as long as you're taking a multi-year approach... which we know the ravens do)

so i wouldnt say that they explicitly addressed RB because they knew ingram was done or anything like that, but there was no reason for them not to think of RB as a need so when a player they had graded in the 1st round fell to the late 2nd, they didn't care what position he played and good things happen when you take good players that fall to you

if im being realistic though, the team is always looking for impact players in the first 3 rounds and your impact is limited if you're stuck down the depth chart behind quality players which does naturally mean that "needs" are going to be weighted towards more immediate ones - a CB without any slot or safety versatility is unlikely to earn much playing time this year unless they're a bonafide stud or there are injuries, a DL likely gets stuck behind the top 4 DL on the roster - a tackle won't play without injuries, a TE might but not a ton, a RB might but not a ton

which really leaves WR, EDGE, IOL and S (or generally versatile DB) as being the only rookie types who will be able to have a significant impact in year 1 - if we view ourselves as looking to contend this year then we need to try and garner as much impact and talent from the rookie class as possible which would suggest we tap these 4 positions in some way in the first 3 rounds

i will say this though - i do love JK and he's a perfect fit for this offence but i still don't generally love the idea of drafting RBs high - that being said, getting madubuike in the 3rd made up for it

Same here. Even in hindsight i wouldn't draft Dobbins - especially in the 2nd. Even though he's already one of the best rbs in the league. It's just that the position holds barely any value and finding surplus value in the 2nd round is crucial. And we haven't drafted well in the 2nd since idk when. So at least JK makes kind of up for this...

I just hope for once we draft well in rounds 1 to 3 because we need it if we want to profit from Lamar's last rookie contract year.

 

[rmcjacket23]

i mean this is why just sticking to the board is important because over 2 offseasons it's incredibly unlikely that there's a position on your roster that isn't a need

in 2021 we're looking immediately at WR, EDGE, IOL for potential starters immediately and that doesn't even include the depth we lack at S or OT
if we add in 2022 then we're looking at adding S, OT, CB, DL, TE and maybe even RB - you could argue LB too but let's not for the sake of argument

which would leave us looking at QB, FB and LB that aren't obviously needs at some point either this offseason or next offseason

of those 3, LB is the only position that's got any chance of being a BPA pick anywhere before day 3

which means that just sticking to your board you're likely filling a need in almost all scenarios (as long as you're taking a multi-year approach... which we know the ravens do)

so i wouldnt say that they explicitly addressed RB because they knew ingram was done or anything like that, but there was no reason for them not to think of RB as a need so when a player they had graded in the 1st round fell to the late 2nd, they didn't care what position he played and good things happen when you take good players that fall to you

if im being realistic though, the team is always looking for impact players in the first 3 rounds and your impact is limited if you're stuck down the depth chart behind quality players which does naturally mean that "needs" are going to be weighted towards more immediate ones - a CB without any slot or safety versatility is unlikely to earn much playing time this year unless they're a bonafide stud or there are injuries, a DL likely gets stuck behind the top 4 DL on the roster - a tackle won't play without injuries, a TE might but not a ton, a RB might but not a ton

which really leaves WR, EDGE, IOL and S (or generally versatile DB) as being the only rookie types who will be able to have a significant impact in year 1 - if we view ourselves as looking to contend this year then we need to try and garner as much impact and talent from the rookie class as possible which would suggest we tap these 4 positions in some way in the first 3 rounds

i will say this though - i do love JK and he's a perfect fit for this offence but i still don't generally love the idea of drafting RBs high - that being said, getting madubuike in the 3rd made up for it

I don't think their focus will be on getting "starters" early. It'll be nice if they can contribute early, but I don't think there's any way the FO pigeon holes itself like that.
For WR specifically, the range of expectations is so wide with virtually anybody you get. Short of like trading into the top 10 to get a "stud", if you take a WR either in late round 1 or on day 2, I'm certainly not going to be expecting that they walk in day 1 and line up in two wide sets with Hollywood. Neither Boykin nor Duvernay played a ton of snaps early on, so I don't know why I would expect a 2nd rounder to just come in and take over either. You take a day 2 WR, and production like Duvernay may very well be what you get. Especially true in this offense, barring some major shift towards a more pass-heavy attack. Again, barring some shocking trade up, whatever receiver we take will, at best, be competing with Watkins for like the #3 target in this passing game. And it's been a long, long, long time since the #3 target in a Ravens passing game made what I would consider to be very strong first year impact.

Depending on where they're drafted, I could partially say the same for IOL. If its a Center, they could easily start day 1. If its somebody who projects more as a Guard, I think they'll need to compete with Powers and others to start there. Two of the three interior line spots are spoken for by incumbents with exceptional pedigrees.

I think its reasonable to expect any EDGE player we drafted in day 1 or day 2 to play a lot of snaps and contribute early, just based on rotation and lack of starters/depth there now. And I think, to a certain extent, a first or second round Safety may be expected to start early as well, though that gives us a very sweet plethora of rotational options and coverage schemes in the secondary (one of the main reasons why I think Safety is a bigger priority for the Ravens than people think).

Outside of that... I think you're looking at rotational players at pretty much any other spot. I'd 100% be beating the drum for an offensive tackle in the first 3-4 rounds, and if there's any existing plans to still entertain training Brown, it should be very early in those rounds.

 

[rossihunter2]

I don't think their focus will be on getting "starters" early. It'll be nice if they can contribute early, but I don't think there's any way the FO pigeon holes itself like that.
For WR specifically, the range of expectations is so wide with virtually anybody you get. Short of like trading into the top 10 to get a "stud", if you take a WR either in late round 1 or on day 2, I'm certainly not going to be expecting that they walk in day 1 and line up in two wide sets with Hollywood. Neither Boykin nor Duvernay played a ton of snaps early on, so I don't know why I would expect a 2nd rounder to just come in and take over either. You take a day 2 WR, and production like Duvernay may very well be what you get. Especially true in this offense, barring some major shift towards a more pass-heavy attack. Again, barring some shocking trade up, whatever receiver we take will, at best, be competing with Watkins for like the #3 target in this passing game. And it's been a long, long, long time since the #3 target in a Ravens passing game made what I would consider to be very strong first year impact.

Depending on where they're drafted, I could partially say the same for IOL. If its a Center, they could easily start day 1. If its somebody who projects more as a Guard, I think they'll need to compete with Powers and others to start there. Two of the three interior line spots are spoken for by incumbents with exceptional pedigrees.

I think its reasonable to expect any EDGE player we drafted in day 1 or day 2 to play a lot of snaps and contribute early, just based on rotation and lack of starters/depth there now. And I think, to a certain extent, a first or second round Safety may be expected to start early as well, though that gives us a very sweet plethora of rotational options and coverage schemes in the secondary (one of the main reasons why I think Safety is a bigger priority for the Ravens than people think).

Outside of that... I think you're looking at rotational players at pretty much any other spot. I'd 100% be beating the drum for an offensive tackle in the first 3-4 rounds, and if there's any existing plans to still entertain training Brown, it should be very early in those rounds.

at the end of my post i did specifically say we would be looking for impact/contributions - that doesn't mean starters - but it's hard to imagine a non-WR, EDGE, IOL or S having any sort of impact on this team in year 1 without injuries

im not suggesting they have to be a starter but a contributor - not going to get that at OT, CB, DL (maybe but not a ton), TE etc.

you can probably find a way to get a top-shelf high pick tackle involved somehow but the others would be stuck behind lots of depth

that's not me necessarily saying we should only draft instant contributors but it would certainly limit the ability of the rookie class to impact the season if they were stuck behind lots of depth

 

[rmcjacket23]

at the end of my post i did specifically say we would be looking for impact/contributions - that doesn't mean starters - but it's hard to imagine a non-WR, EDGE, IOL or S having any sort of impact on this team in year 1 without injuries

im not suggesting they have to be a starter but a contributor - not going to get that at OT, CB, DL (maybe but not a ton), TE etc.

you can probably find a way to get a top-shelf high pick tackle involved somehow but the others would be stuck behind lots of depth

that's not me necessarily saying we should only draft instant contributors but it would certainly limit the ability of the rookie class to impact the season if they were stuck behind lots of depth

Corner and TE I agree with, and OT as well, provided that we don't trade Brown.

I can easily see a Dlineman playing a significant role. Wolfe and BWill are paid as essentially "backup" level veterans who would be rotational players. Fully aware, of course, that our Dlineman rotations are usually pretty wide, and so there's actually not many DLineman on the roster who are going to play more than 50-60%. But if there's an interior pass rusher available late in the first round, I could 100% see them drafting and playing that guy a significant amount. Even if he played 40-50% of snaps, quite frankly, that's probably about the same from what you'll get from an Edge player, and likely quite a bit more than you'd get from a WR.

Quite literally the only position I could see where you draft a first rounder and they play a ton of in terms of snaps in year 1 is likely an IOLineman. Everybody else, even an Edge player, is likely to be rotational.

 

[rossihunter2]

Corner and TE I agree with, and OT as well, provided that we don't trade Brown.

I can easily see a Dlineman playing a significant role. Wolfe and BWill are paid as essentially "backup" level veterans who would be rotational players. Fully aware, of course, that our Dlineman rotations are usually pretty wide, and so there's actually not many DLineman on the roster who are going to play more than 50-60%. But if there's an interior pass rusher available late in the first round, I could 100% see them drafting and playing that guy a significant amount. Even if he played 40-50% of snaps, quite frankly, that's probably about the same from what you'll get from an Edge player, and likely quite a bit more than you'd get from a WR.

Quite literally the only position I could see where you draft a first rounder and they play a ton of in terms of snaps in year 1 is likely an IOLineman. Everybody else, even an Edge player, is likely to be rotational.

i guess the reason i rationalised it that way with DL is that for a lot of the year we were only activating 4 true DL - i suppose jihad ward made up for some of those reps and justin ellis was activated vs run heavy teams - idk that there isnt room for a 5th DL to be regularly active but the number of snaps for DL is not massive - i definitely think we should be drafting one and if it happens to be someone like barmore who would offer immediate interior pass rush then that's cool - i just think there's probably not an enormous number of snaps to be had - but i guess as a pass rushing DL you don't necessarily need that many snaps to be able to contribute

 

[purplepittabread88]

You can absolutely bake incentives into player contracts. It's done all the time. The only kind of "downside" of certain incentives is that they'll count against next years cap in a lot of cases if they're obtained, because you'd likely need to wait until the season ends before we can determine if they're achieved.

Common milestones can be what you described, like # of sacks, yardage, catches, TDs, etc., but probably the most common are individual or team awards, i.e. incentives for Pro Bowls, All Pro teams, MVPs, and SB wins, etc.

No I get that part - I meant add it in as a "Dont sign with anyone until May 3rd and we add an incentive"

 

[rmcjacket23]

i guess the reason i rationalised it that way with DL is that for a lot of the year we were only activating 4 true DL - i suppose jihad ward made up for some of those reps and justin ellis was activated vs run heavy teams - idk that there isnt room for a 5th DL to be regularly active but the number of snaps for DL is not massive - i definitely think we should be drafting one and if it happens to be someone like barmore who would offer immediate interior pass rush then that's cool - i just think there's probably not an enormous number of snaps to be had - but i guess as a pass rushing DL you don't necessarily need that many snaps to be able to contribute

I think if they felt like the defensive line was as vital to the pass rush as the linebacking core was, they're just activate an additional DLineman and maybe activate one less LB or something like that.

 

[rmcjacket23]

No I get that part - I meant add it in as a "Dont sign with anyone until May 3rd and we add an incentive"

I just don't think the Ravens are concerned about it. Like I said... if Houston or comparable players had a significant market, they'd have signed already. I just don't see teams doing much in FA for the next 2-3 weeks. Like I guess if Houston started begging and teams could get him for like $2M, then sure, I think teams would sign. But a lot of these FAs have less incentive to sign now also. Their market is unlikely to be dramatically reduced by the draft, and may even increase.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

So what 's the position consensus for our first rounder? I will go out on a limb and say we go S. Sporting News has no Safeties picked in the 1st Round with JAC picking Trevon Moehrig with their first pick of the second. I'd be hard pressed not to take Moehrig if he was available at our 1st rounder. Mel Kiper has JAC picking him in the 1st at 25 two picks before us. I feel like he is a Ravens type pick, especially remembering how they paired some of our better CB's with Ed Reed and then trying to address that in the FA signing with Earl Trouble.

 

[rmcjacket23]

So what 's the position consensus for our first rounder? I will go out on a limb and say we go S. Sporting News has no Safeties picked in the 1st Round with JAC picking Trevon Moehrig with their first pick of the second. I'd be hard pressed not to take Moehrig if he was available at our 1st rounder. Mel Kiper has JAC picking him in the 1st at 25 two picks before us. I feel like he is a Ravens type pick, especially remembering how they paired some of our better CB's with Ed Reed and then trying to address that in the FA signing with Earl Trouble.

Honestly one of the few years I can't really narrow down to a position or two. WR, Safety, or really any kind of pass rusher is probably in-play. Probably too early for a Tackle or a TE in this class. Interior Oline remains a possibility, though I'm not certain of the prospects in that range.

 

[rossihunter2]

So what 's the position consensus for our first rounder? I will go out on a limb and say we go S. Sporting News has no Safeties picked in the 1st Round with JAC picking Trevon Moehrig with their first pick of the second. I'd be hard pressed not to take Moehrig if he was available at our 1st rounder. Mel Kiper has JAC picking him in the 1st at 25 two picks before us. I feel like he is a Ravens type pick, especially remembering how they paired some of our better CB's with Ed Reed and then trying to address that in the FA signing with Earl Trouble.

i personally wouldn't love it - i like moehrig but i dont think he's the slam-dunk that many are suggesting - it feels like every year there are some marquee safeties who get hyped up in the media as going in the 20s in mocks consistently but end up going nearly a round later...

hopefully that's the case with moehrig - i like him and he's got tons of potential so i would easily get behind it if it happened (because im a fan lol) but id probably be disappointed at the time

but very hard to nail down a position right now

 

[rossihunter2]

Honestly one of the few years I can't really narrow down to a position or two. WR, Safety, or really any kind of pass rusher is probably in-play. Probably too early for a Tackle or a TE in this class. Interior Oline remains a possibility, though I'm not certain of the prospects in that range.

in terms of IOL, it's basically these 3 guys with a chance to go round 1:

• Alijah Vera-Tucker who's probably long gone by 27 because some teams will probably like him as a tackle where he also performed at a high level in 2020 after transitioning from guard (knowing that they probably have a high-level guard if he doesn't pan out)
• Landon Dickerson who's unbelievably good at C - has a litany of injuries throughout his college career but otherwise would be a surefire 1st round pick at C - both mentally, physically and athletically it would be tough to build a better C prospect if you took away his injury history
• Creed Humphrey who's also a very steady C prospect - probably doesn't quite have the ceiling that dickerson has but has a high floor and an unbelievable testing profile - a very safe pick who looks like at minimum he's going to be a starter for a while - has shorter arms, and maybe not quite as powerful at the point of attack as dickerson but someone who's technical, refined and physical and looks rock solid in pass pro

some will also say wyatt davis - it's possible but he's less consistent albeit he's definitely someone i can envision anchoring a running game at RG for a long time

and the wild card is quinn meinerz - probably not really a contender to go day 1 - but he's going to go high despite playing division iii and not playing since 2019 because of that... it's definitely possible after the senior bowl and athletic testing that a team has him ranked super high on their board and he goes late round 1... but more likely day 2

i'd imagine there's lots of tackles who are going to go around the end of round 1 or beginning of round 2 but i also think it's possible that 6+ are taken before we even get on the clock at 27 so may well be that we don't like whoever's left when we're picking in round 1...

saw a draft analyst yesterday (can't remember which) talk about the fact that much like WR, outside of the top 3 or so guys there's no consensus about who's next... all teams seem to agree that the talent pool is great with tons of depth but lots of different answers about the order (moreso than in other years) which makes it much more likely we see a run at those positions at some point fairly early because everyone likes different guys differently...

with WRs I think that run starts somewhere between 19 and 29 and i think we see 6+ WRs go in quick succession after the 1st one comes off the board

with OTs I think it's less obvious where that run begins but i think the latest it starts is 21 and I think we could be looking at up to 10 guys go in succession there too

so i think you're probably right - it's WR, EDGE or maybe S (although i'm not in love with the safeties who we might pick at 27) and there's so many OL across all 3 spots that it's definitely possible 1 of them is BPA when we pick but also possibly not

when i've run a few mocks myself (and done the simulated ones) - interestingly CB has ended up being BPA a fair few times at 27 (mostly because Greg Newsome II is 17th on my big board)