Signings, Cuts, Trades

[rmcjacket23]

They did a photo album of all of the upcoming free agents and he's listed as a RFA

Did they list all RFA's as RFAs or did they actually show ERFAs as such?

 

[Simba]

Correct. It's $1-1.5M more than the bare minimum you would have to pay the guy anyway, we historically tender pretty much all of our RFA's and ERFAs, and we've given similar tenders to players who fit in similar spots on the depth chart before, so I see no reason why it wouldn't happen this time also.

We didn't tender Chris Board last year and you could argue he had much more of a role than Westry has all season. Board was non-tendered and then signed back to a 1 year deal worth a bit over the minimum.

 

[Simba]

Did they list all RFA's as RFAs or did they actually show ERFAs as such?

They have them all listed in order - UFAs first, then RFAs, and then ERFAs. All noted as such as well.

https://www.baltimoreravens.com/pho...ffseason#1cc5bded-1b4e-41cb-970e-929cfab47d36

 

[rmcjacket23]

See, I disagree here which is why I brought it up in the first place. I'd have felt a lot better about it had he been on the field at the end of the year but he had like 4 injuries all season and once he got healthy, Seymour and the ghost of Jimmy Smith both got time on defense over him. He was basically a ST only guy in the last few games. Just can't see paying a guy that played 6 games and couldn't stay healthy that much money. Sure it's not a ton but I don't see him as anything more than a bit over the minimum type of guy right now.

I mean I don't really think he was "healthy" late in the year either. Against the Rams he played zero defensive snaps and barely played on ST (a pretty good indicator of whether or not he was healthy), and the following week he played more but still didn't play a ton.
Jimmy should be playing over him because Jimmy is higher on the depth chart and probably still a better Corner than him at this point, and Seymour played because literally nobody else was available to play.

My guess is if we hadn't had so many injuries at Corner, Westry probably would have still be on IR at that point of the season and maybe would have never returned to begin with.

 

[rmcjacket23]

We didn't tender Chris Board last year and you could argue he had much more of a role than Westry has all season. Board was non-tendered and then signed back to a 1 year deal worth a bit over the minimum.

Right but Board was almost entirely a core ST, and the Ravens were looking to make a move to a different player altogether in that regards (Welch, who basically played the same role). Ravens had leverage in that spot. What leverage do they have now?

What are we earmarking the extra $1M for? What quality, reserve, Corners are available in that price range?

 

[Simba]

I mean I don't really think he was "healthy" late in the year either. Against the Rams he played zero defensive snaps and barely played on ST (a pretty good indicator of whether or not he was healthy), and the following week he played more but still didn't play a ton.
Jimmy should be playing over him because Jimmy is higher on the depth chart and probably still a better Corner than him at this point, and Seymour played because literally nobody else was available to play.

My guess is if we hadn't had so many injuries at Corner, Westry probably would have still be on IR at that point of the season and maybe would have never returned to begin with.

But I think that's an issue as well... that he couldn't stay healthy. It'd be one thing if it was lingering stuff from his earlier season injury but he stacked up multiple different injuries.

Would also note he was definitely above Jimmy on the depth chart earlier in the season.

I guess I just don't see paying a guy like him $2.5M and I'd be very surprised if the Ravens do as well. I'm all about CB depth but I'm not overpaying for him either. We say $1.5M isn't a big deal until we get to the season and have to start moving money around because we need replacement players. For a team that's always up against the cap like we are, every little bit counts.

 

[rmcjacket23]

But I think that's an issue as well... that he couldn't stay healthy. It'd be one thing if it was lingering stuff from his earlier season injury but he stacked up multiple different injuries.

Would also note he was definitely above Jimmy on the depth chart earlier in the season.

I guess I just don't see paying a guy like him $2.5M and I'd be very surprised if the Ravens do as well. I'm all about CB depth but I'm not overpaying for him either. We say $1.5M isn't a big deal until we get to the season and have to start moving money around because we need replacement players. For a team that's always up against the cap like we are, every little bit counts.

OK, but there's really no such thing as "overpaying" a player making $2-3M a year. That's a really tough argument to make. Many of the players in that price range are making primary impacts as core ST players. That's it. They're 4th or 5th on the depth chart in their position groups, which means ideally, they never see the light of day there. That's what that price point gets you.

I have no issue with needing to move money around to create $1.5M in cap space for later on. You can convert a small amount of salary for any of the expensive players (many of which would actually qualify as "overpaid") to do that.

As for the injuries concerns, they're valid, but then again, the price point pretty much already bakes that in. We're talking about paying market value to Anthony Averett, or extending or keeping Tavon Young, at MUCH bigger price points, and yet those guys have monstrous injury concerns also. Quite frankly pretty much every NFL player comes with injury concerns at this point.

 

[RavensMania]

Right but Board was almost entirely a core ST, and the Ravens were looking to make a move to a different player altogether in that regards (Welch, who basically played the same role). Ravens had leverage in that spot. What leverage do they have now?

What are we earmarking the extra $1M for? What quality, reserve, Corners are available in that price range?

Board had 279 snaps on defense in 2020.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Board had 279 snaps on defense in 2020.

Cool. Coincides almost exactly with the benching of Malik Harrison. Look at his snaps before Thanksgiving and after Thanksgiving.

If they were bringing him back to be a starter or a guy who's playing 40-50 snaps a game, then I don't know why they bring back Fort (who then gets injured) or sign Bynes. But they did both.

 

[Simba]

Cool. Coincides almost exactly with the benching of Malik Harrison. Look at his snaps before Thanksgiving and after Thanksgiving.

If they were bringing him back to be a starter or a guy who's playing 40-50 snaps a game, then I don't know why they bring back Fort (who then gets injured) or sign Bynes. But they did both.

2020. It's about the non-tender situation. It was a guy that did play a fair amount of snaps (and even started a couple of games in there) that they non-tendered and signed to a cheaper deal because they didn't think he was worth the original round tender amount.

 

[rmcjacket23]

2020. It's about the non-tender situation. It was a guy that did play a fair amount of snaps (and even started a couple of games in there) that they non-tendered and signed to a cheaper deal because they didn't think he was worth the original round tender amount.

Yes, my comment was about 2020. He started playing a lot of snaps at pretty much the exact moment that the guy who was playing a lot of snaps was sucking ass and benched. That was in 2020. The overwhelming majority of his snap loads for the year occurred from Thanksgiving-forward. He played 10 defensive snaps or less for 8 of the first 9 games.

My point is they likely non-tendered him because they had no intention of him playing that many defensive snaps in 2021, and they viewed him as purely a core ST player, who they likely could find somebody else cheaper to do the same job. He ended up playing a bunch of defensive snaps in 2021, because Fort is lost for the season in camp, Harrison still sucks, and Queen was also playing terrible for half the season. His snaps also started decreasing around the time they bring in Bynes and shift Queen to the weak side.

Now if they Ravens feel the same way about Westry, i.e. he's a guy they don't think will play DB a lot and is mostly a ST, then yes, they may non-tender him. I just don't think they're in a position with that position group to do that at this point, given the expected turnover we are going to see.

 

[RavensMania]

Cool. Coincides almost exactly with the benching of Malik Harrison. Look at his snaps before Thanksgiving and after Thanksgiving.

If they were bringing him back to be a starter or a guy who's playing 40-50 snaps a game, then I don't know why they bring back Fort (who then gets injured) or sign Bynes. But they did both.

yeah, they were definitely bringing him back to be depth and hoping Harrison could start this year. Fort was also a depth piece that may have had to start and unfortunately got injured. I'd love to see them bring back Bynes due to him having such an impact on Queens game this year. I like Fort also for the price. We can't fix all of our defense in one offseason so smart purchases here and there should be something we consider.

 

[RavensMania]

if we extend Westry, we would also be extending him to be a depth piece, not a starter. I'd hope we can bring him in at around minimum vet salary.

 

[rmcjacket23]

if we extend Westry, we would also be extending him to be a depth piece, not a starter. I'd hope we can bring him in at around minimum vet salary.

I mean I don't think he's getting a multi-year deal. He either gets tendered as an RFA, or we don't, and try to re-sign him for less on a one year deal. Or he walks all together.

Considering the difference between the RFA tender and the vet minimum salary for his status is probably in the $1.5M range, if it were me, I'd just tender and move on. I don't know what people think we're getting for $1.5M, or that we couldn't create $1.5M in about a half dozen different ways if we somehow needed it.

If this were a position group where I thought we had decent depth and/or I felt confident I could address the depth in a better way, then I'm fine seeing what the market bears. But I'm expecting Averett and probably Jimmy to be gone, I really don't know what the short-term or long-term status is of either Tavon or Peters (I'm assuming they're back, but neither is under contract beyond 2022 at the moment), and Marlon is coming off a significant, mid-season injury. If I were running the FO, I'm not in a position at this stage of the offseason (or probably when FA opens) to be turning down Corner depth for $1-2M a year. That's awfully risky. And I'd prefer not to force CB to be a high-level need in the draft, since I already know I have other position groups that will inevitably be high-level needs too (Tackle, Center, Dline, Pass rush).

 

[RavensMania]

I mean I don't think he's getting a multi-year deal. He either gets tendered as an RFA, or we don't, and try to re-sign him for less on a one year deal. Or he walks all together.

Considering the difference between the RFA tender and the vet minimum salary for his status is probably in the $1.5M range, if it were me, I'd just tender and move on. I don't know what people think we're getting for $1.5M, or that we couldn't create $1.5M in about a half dozen different ways if we somehow needed it.

If this were a position group where I thought we had decent depth and/or I felt confident I could address the depth in a better way, then I'm fine seeing what the market bears. But I'm expecting Averett and probably Jimmy to be gone, I really don't know what the short-term or long-term status is of either Tavon or Peters (I'm assuming they're back, but neither is under contract beyond 2022 at the moment), and Marlon is coming off a significant, mid-season injury. If I were running the FO, I'm not in a position at this stage of the offseason (or probably when FA opens) to be turning down Corner depth for $1-2M a year. That's awfully risky. And I'd prefer not to force CB to be a high-level need in the draft, since I already know I have other position groups that will inevitably be high-level needs too (Tackle, Center, Dline, Pass rush).

if you keep thinking it's only 1.5m, than you're not considering this could happen with multiple guys. It's about saving a restructure on a contract or just going into the season with a little more money. You don't have to spend it and no we aren't saying you can get much for the difference.

 

[rmcjacket23]

if you keep thinking it's only 1.5m, than you're not considering this could happen with multiple guys. It's about saving a restructure on a contract or just going into the season with a little more money. You don't have to spend it and no we aren't saying you can get much for the difference.

Which multiple guys?
If I'm just looking at RFAs, is Otaro Alaka worth keeping as an RFA? He hasn't played a down for the Ravens since week 5 of 2020.
How about the ERFAs? is Brandon Knight important to keep? Aaron Crawford? TySon Williams? Khalil Dorsey?

I'd keep Westry at his price point over all of those guys, and even at lower price points.

Hell, I could pay for the gap between Westry and an ERFA by simply cutting one of a bunch of players who do very little that are on the active roster. Myles Boykin, Iman Marshall, and Malik Harrison come to mind.

 

[RavensMania]

Which multiple guys?
If I'm just looking at RFAs, is Otaro Alaka worth keeping as an RFA? He hasn't played a down for the Ravens since week 5 of 2020.
How about the ERFAs? is Brandon Knight important to keep? Aaron Crawford? TySon Williams? Khalil Dorsey?

I'd keep Westry at his price point over all of those guys, and even at lower price points.

Hell, I could pay for the gap between Westry and an ERFA by simply cutting one of a bunch of players who do very little that are on the active roster. Myles Boykin, Iman Marshall, and Malik Harrison come to mind.

may only be one this year, but I'm just considering any year. Now I don't know how many RFAs we typically have in a year. I'm just saying 1.5m adds up, no matter if you are talking RFAs or anything for that matter.

 

[rossihunter2]

I mean I don't think he's getting a multi-year deal. He either gets tendered as an RFA, or we don't, and try to re-sign him for less on a one year deal. Or he walks all together.

Considering the difference between the RFA tender and the vet minimum salary for his status is probably in the $1.5M range, if it were me, I'd just tender and move on. I don't know what people think we're getting for $1.5M, or that we couldn't create $1.5M in about a half dozen different ways if we somehow needed it.

If this were a position group where I thought we had decent depth and/or I felt confident I could address the depth in a better way, then I'm fine seeing what the market bears. But I'm expecting Averett and probably Jimmy to be gone, I really don't know what the short-term or long-term status is of either Tavon or Peters (I'm assuming they're back, but neither is under contract beyond 2022 at the moment), and Marlon is coming off a significant, mid-season injury. If I were running the FO, I'm not in a position at this stage of the offseason (or probably when FA opens) to be turning down Corner depth for $1-2M a year. That's awfully risky. And I'd prefer not to force CB to be a high-level need in the draft, since I already know I have other position groups that will inevitably be high-level needs too (Tackle, Center, Dline, Pass rush).

and for me the dropoff from a westry (who can contribute on special teams so has additional value beyond just being a depth corner) to a robert jackson is significant enough that ill happily pay westry an extra 1.5m to not have to risk a robert jackson on the roster - in an ideal world for me, westry's on the roster as the 6th or 7th CB and never has to play a down on defence for us - and id still consider that a fine use of 2.5m

 

[rossihunter2]

may only be one this year, but I'm just considering any year. Now I don't know how many RFAs we typically have in a year. I'm just saying 1.5m adds up, no matter if you are talking RFAs or anything for that matter.

we typically never have more than 2 or 3 RFAs because they have to be guys worth keeping or else we just wont tender them and we'll either re-sign them for the minimum or leave them alone

this year it's highly likely that westry's the only guy we'd even consider tendering - no way we'll tender alaka so it's really just westry we need to worry about this year

saying that - we're possibly looking at 4 or 5 in 2023: huntley, colon, welch, nick moore and geno stone

 

[Simba]

Off of the Westry talk (still don't think he's getting tendered)...

I wonder how burnt that bridge is with Ben Mason at this point. Seems like Harbaugh was pissed but Ricard could walk and Mason is out there for a futures contract...

I'd classify it as unlikely but just a thought running through my head.