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Signings, Cuts, Trades

BoredMarine13

Ravens Ring of Honor
If the deal of 133 guaranteed 250 total is real that deal is AWFUL.
Why is it awful? The guaranteed money was less than Watson but more than given to Russell Wilson and Kyler Murray this offseason. His three-year APY would have topped both Wilson and Rodgers(super bowl winners).

I don't get why we can't be honest with the way we discuss Lamar's contract. Lamar is well within his rights to request the world, but he isn't being realistic. Win a championship or come back to planet earth with your demands. The Ravens made a fair offer, but they certainly have room to sweeten the deal, but let's not pretend it was a disrespectful offer.
 

BoredMarine13

Ravens Ring of Honor
But that's Lamar's thinking as well. Regardless of what happens this year, even if he were to get hurt, the offer he got on the table is likely the minimum an offer is going to be next year. Why not wait and see if one of those guys breaks the bank? He's not really risking anything in all actuality. He's getting more money out of this deal by sitting and waiting, while the Ravens are content to sit and wait and hope that the fully guaranteed angle isn't a trend. Fair offer this year for both sides but also smart by both sides to wait it out. Ravens might end up paying more but I think they'll be content with that not to set a trend.
Yea, I agree with Lamar's angle, it makes sense if his true goal is to top Watson. I would disagree about the injury portion, especially if he misses significant time like last year.
 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
Yea, I agree with Lamar's angle, it makes sense if his true goal is to top Watson. I would disagree about the injury portion, especially if he misses significant time like last year.
Dak's ankle was sideways and he still got paid big money and would have on the open market too. Same exact case for Lamar. His value is not dropping at this point unless there's a career altering type of injury.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Why is it awful? The guaranteed money was less than Watson but more than given to Russell Wilson and Kyler Murray this offseason. His three-year APY would have topped both Wilson and Rodgers(super bowl winners).

I don't get why we can't be honest with the way we discuss Lamar's contract. Lamar is well within his rights to request the world, but he isn't being realistic. Win a championship or come back to planet earth with your demands. The Ravens made a fair offer, but they certainly have room to sweeten the deal, but let's not pretend it was a disrespectful offer.
I think its somewhere in the middle.
I understand the Ravens offer and it's not a lowball offer or unreasonable by any metric.
I understand Lamar wanting a fully guaranteed contract because Watson got one, and I understand him not accepting anything until he gets it.

Both sides are doing what they're supposed to be doing.

Why I would advise Lamar to probably make a deal after the season and before getting franchise tagged is a) his life will be harder playing on a franchise tag (i.e. his teams rate to be worse), b) barring a season that involves a Lombardi trophy, I don't see the Ravens giving him a fully guaranteed deal in the 5+ year range now or in the future, c) I'm not convinced any other team in the league will either. And that includes desperate teams.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Dak's ankle was sideways and he still got paid big money and would have on the open market too. Same exact case for Lamar. His value is not dropping at this point unless there's a career altering type of injury.
I agree its not dropping. But the only path I see to him getting a fully guaranteed contract for 5+ years in the mold of Watson is with a Lombardi. I don't think an MVP award will get it done either. Maybe an MVP + like an AFCG appearance.

The other factor is I'm fairly confident one or both of Burrow and Herbert are getting extensions next offseason. It may be later in the offseason, but I think they get done. And I'm very confident that neither will get fully guaranteed deals.

And when they don't, Lamar will pretty much lose that leverage entirely.
 

BoredMarine13

Ravens Ring of Honor
Dak's ankle was sideways and he still got paid big money and would have on the open market too. Same exact case for Lamar. His value is not dropping at this point unless there's a career altering type of injury.
Wasnt that Daks first injury?
 

BoredMarine13

Ravens Ring of Honor
I think its somewhere in the middle.
I understand the Ravens offer and it's not a lowball offer or unreasonable by any metric.
I understand Lamar wanting a fully guaranteed contract because Watson got one, and I understand him not accepting anything until he gets it.

Both sides are doing what they're supposed to be doing.
Completely agree , which is why I don't buy into the narrative that the Ravens are disrespecting Lamar. Lamar's ask is unrealistic but I can certainly see why he would ask for it. I think this deal gets done in the offseason with a happy median of the current offers both sides are offering
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Completely agree , which is why I don't buy into the narrative that the Ravens are disrespecting Lamar. Lamar's ask is unrealistic but I can certainly see why he would ask for it. I think this deal gets done in the offseason with a happy median of the current offers both sides are offering
The people that think the Ravens offer was disrespectful are a) not objective, b) Lamar fans, not Ravens fans, and c) people who think one person sets the market.
 

gtalk12

Ravens Ring of Honor

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
I agree its not dropping. But the only path I see to him getting a fully guaranteed contract for 5+ years in the mold of Watson is with a Lombardi. I don't think an MVP award will get it done either. Maybe an MVP + like an AFCG appearance.

The other factor is I'm fairly confident one or both of Burrow and Herbert are getting extensions next offseason. It may be later in the offseason, but I think they get done. And I'm very confident that neither will get fully guaranteed deals.

And when they don't, Lamar will pretty much lose that leverage entirely.
Yeah I don't see it either, but Lamar is kind of in the drivers seat here and it doesn't hurt him to try. That's why I'll maintain like you said above, both sides in a roundabout way made the right decision. The Ravens aren't going to reset the market and Lamar has other opportunities to try to prove that they should. Let it play out and see what happens, because the offer Lamar got a couple of weeks ago will be there for him right after the season too.
 

BoredMarine13

Ravens Ring of Honor
Yeah but I don't see why that matters. Players get hurt. It happens. No one in league circles is penalizing Lamar for missing a few games last year despite what the media might be trying to say.
I don't think Lamar's injury last year is a big deal. I do think the type of injury and number of injuries a player sustains is a big deal. Especially when your talking about a guy who is so dangerous on the run.
 

allblackraven

Hall of Famer
But that's Lamar's thinking as well. Regardless of what happens this year, even if he were to get hurt, the offer he got on the table is likely the minimum an offer is going to be next year. Why not wait and see if one of those guys breaks the bank? He's not really risking anything in all actuality. He's getting more money out of this deal by sitting and waiting, while the Ravens are content to sit and wait and hope that the fully guaranteed angle isn't a trend. Fair offer this year for both sides but also smart by both sides to wait it out. Ravens might end up paying more but I think they'll be content with that not to set a trend.
If he plays on two consecutive franchise tags, Lamar is set to make just a little less in 3 years (22, 23, 24) than what guaranteed at signing offer was. If that doesn't happen, it means he got a better offer by the Ravens or someone else in a trade scenario. Unless he suffers completely catastrophic injury, he has nothing to lose, only to gain.

And after '24 season, he will make a mountain of money as a free agent.
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
Why is it awful? The guaranteed money was less than Watson but more than given to Russell Wilson and Kyler Murray this offseason. His three-year APY would have topped both Wilson and Rodgers(super bowl winners).

I don't get why we can't be honest with the way we discuss Lamar's contract. Lamar is well within his rights to request the world, but he isn't being realistic. Win a championship or come back to planet earth with your demands. The Ravens made a fair offer, but they certainly have room to sweeten the deal, but let's not pretend it was a disrespectful offer.
The going rate for a franchise qb is what it is, and that offer does not fit the going rate for Lamar’s level of play. It’s sucks but that’s what it is. Lamars gonna get more than russ because Lamar is 24 years old while russ is well past his prime, and kyler has never come close to carrying his entire franchise like Lamar. The situations are not comparable. We can call Lamar’s demands crazy all we want but at the end of the day if the ravens don’t pay him what he asks, another team will pay him even more than that, and then within 2 years another qb is gonna make Lamar’s deal look like a steal, and the ravens will be rebuilding.
 

Tank

Hall of Famer
The going rate for a franchise qb is what it is, and that offer does not fit the going rate for Lamar’s level of play. It’s sucks but that’s what it is. Lamars gonna get more than russ because Lamar is 24 years old while russ is well past his prime, and kyler has never come close to carrying his entire franchise like Lamar. The situations are not comparable. We can call Lamar’s demands crazy all we want but at the end of the day if the ravens don’t pay him what he asks, another team will pay him even more than that, and then within 2 years another qb is gonna make Lamar’s deal look like a steal, and the ravens will be rebuilding.
I really don’t think fully guaranteed contracts are the “going rate”, nor will they ever become the norm. Isn’t that the sticking point from Lamar’s perspective? Other than that it seems the Ravens offer was the going rate.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
The going rate for a franchise qb is what it is, and that offer does not fit the going rate for Lamar’s level of play. It’s sucks but that’s what it is. Lamars gonna get more than russ because Lamar is 24 years old while russ is well past his prime, and kyler has never come close to carrying his entire franchise like Lamar. The situations are not comparable. We can call Lamar’s demands crazy all we want but at the end of the day if the ravens don’t pay him what he asks, another team will pay him even more than that, and then within 2 years another qb is gonna make Lamar’s deal look like a steal, and the ravens will be rebuilding.
And I think all of that is true... except for the fully guaranteed point. I don't think somebody else will give him the Watson deal in terms of 5+ years, fully guaranteed, and I don't think 2-3 years from now that will be different either. I could be wrong, but I'm just not buying it yet.

But yes, AAV will continue to rise, total contracts will continue to rise, etc. At this point, I think all of that is irrelevant for both sides, because both sides know that and, based on the Ravens recent offer, they're willing to adjust for that also.

The AAV, the total money, and the length, are all top of the market levels in their offer.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I really don’t think fully guaranteed contracts are the “going rate”, nor will they ever become the norm. Isn’t that the sticking point from Lamar’s perspective? Other than that it seems the Ravens offer was the going rate.
It's the "presumed" sticking point, yes. Not for certain, but that seems to be where everybody is at without knowing for sure.
 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
If he plays on two consecutive franchise tags, Lamar is set to make just a little less in 3 years (22, 23, 24) than what guaranteed at signing offer was. If that doesn't happen, it means he got a better offer by the Ravens or someone else in a trade scenario. Unless he suffers completely catastrophic injury, he has nothing to lose, only to gain.

And after '24 season, he will make a mountain of money as a free agent.
Exactly. The reality is that the Ravens made a fair offer based on current market value, but Lamar was smart to turn it down. Just business for both sides.
 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
I don't think Lamar's injury last year is a big deal. I do think the type of injury and number of injuries a player sustains is a big deal. Especially when your talking about a guy who is so dangerous on the run.
Would not impact his market value in the slightest. Only something catastrophic
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
So I'm pretty sure a) the $133M was total guaranteed at signing and b) Lamar confirmed to some reporter (can't remember who) that the actual total guaranteed money was in like the $160-180M range, which is what others had reported. So substantially more.

Based on what we've seen offered, he would have been #2 in AAV, #2 in Gtd money at signing, and either #2 or #3 in total guaranteed money.
He would have gotten less guaranteed money than Kyler, which is part of the problem, but I don't think the gap was that wide that they couldn't bridge that.

But, again, if you're looking for the Watson deal, none of this matters.

The good news, at least in my eyes, is you have a sense of where the Ravens are at. a) they want a longer contract, b) AAV isn't a problem, since they're already at $50M annually, and c) they're basically willing to pay him as a top 2-3 QB based on all metrics, which is what he is.

he would have had more total guarantees than anyone in the league except Watson - kyler had 160m in total guarantees and russ had 165m in total guarantees - lamar's 160-180 range most likely would have been bigger than both of them

all we know right now is what the ravens were offering lamar when they had the leverage, they will have a lot less leverage next year because of the franchise tag cap hit - i imagine the offered contract is going to get substantially bigger in terms of guarantees when they're next at the table
 
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