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Signings, Cuts, Trades

That's a good point. I didn't think of it like that. What if Deebo comes with a new contract extension instead of him being a one year rental?

then that's a different kind of deal for sure - but then you've got to match the cost of the capital and the hypothetical extension vs where else you might spend those picks and cap space

would have to include an extension if we're thinking of giving up the 14th pick especially at a position where we dont have a need
 
if we're adding a receiver with the 14th pick...
it better be a drafted one lol - im not giving up a 1st round pick for 1 year of control on deebo

That's a good point. I didn't think of it like that. What if Deebo comes with a new contract extension instead of him being a one year rental?

I can't imagine that this is a real rumor about Deebo. It seems dumb to me. I get Deebo being an NFL commodity, but the expense it's going to take to have him be more than a rental is too high. And I would be equally surprised by a WR pick at 14 given that we didn't see too much of Bateman last year, but what we did see was very encouraging. I'm not against a WR at 14 if that's what it comes to, but I'd be pretty surprised by it. I actually think the WR's made a pretty good showing last year, even without Lamar for the whole season.
 
if we're adding a receiver with the 14th pick...
it better be a drafted one lol - im not giving up a 1st round pick for 1 year of control on deebo
I agree. I'd prefer London, Burks or Williams or even Pickens if he is there in the 2nd round. All have #1 WR talent and 4/5 yrs of control at a reasonable cost.

I'm not going to be surprised at all if the Ravens draft a WR in the 1st round. Not surprised at all.
 
Giants are looking to trade Kadarius Toney

That's crazy
 
Giants are looking to trade Kadarius Toney

That's crazy

um what? lol
i'd definitely be in on that - i imagine the price cant be too high given that the reason they're getting rid of him is behind the scenes stuff

take a risk and throw them a day 3 pick lol and see if maybe we can get him to buy in - got freakish flexibility in his lower body to make insane cuts
 
I have started to question even the value of looking at guaranteed dollars when you have people signing deals like Mahomes where technically the contract is not guaranteed but in reality it is 100% guaranteed due to the structure of the deal. Of course deals like Hill where he is effectively (after roster/workout bonuses) going to earn 45m salary in the final year of the deal with minimal dead cap for cutting and know that it goes in the exact opposite direction.

Kirk's is somewhere in the middle of that. He is basically guaranteed the first 2 years where if they cut him after he made 2 years and 39 million. If they keep him for year 3, 50-50 considering the dead money to cap savings ratio, then it is a 3 year 55 million dollar contract. The dead money makes him uncuttable for the first 2 years and the 3rd year he is more cuttable but it still is not a lot of savings. It is a very bad contract all around because even though the money is not guaranteed the contract is structured in a way that it is better for your cap to pay it regardless.
How is Mahomes fully guaranteed all of his contract? It's literally just a series of roster bonuses and non-guaranteed salaries. After about year 3-4, he's literally on the textbook definition of a year-to-year contract. He has 10 years left on his deal, of which 6 have no dead money whatsoever attached to them (meaning they're year to year) and the 5th has a miniscule amount. 50% of his remaining contract is essentially written in pencil.

Honestly I think you're overvaluing the dead money to cap ratio. You're assuming that because the dead money is more than the cap savings, teams won't cut the player. That's not an assumption you should make. #1, that happens all the time, every year. Teams routinely cut players where the dead money is > the cap savings. They do that because dead money = sunk costs, i.e. its irrelevant to decision making. There's no decision anybody can make that will reduce it, #2, for a franchise, they're still a for-profit enterprise, where cash spend arguably means more than cap spend. Cap is fictional. Even if the dead money is 70-80% of a cap hit, that doesn't mean a team will just pay the guy a salary that's not commensurate with his production. If the key provides no value, the team will rather have X $M in net income than pay the guy, regardless of cap hit.

Even more-so to understand why savings to cut ratio doesn't matter, is the fact that plenty of teams will assign post-June 1 cut designations, so they can spread out the cut impact over two years. Not ideal depending on size, but if it's somebody like Kirk, where the dead money isn't even that high, that Post-June 1 savings will pay for your draft class, easily. So you can still spend in FA, and just hold your draft signings up for a month or so, and then sign.

Remember, from a business standpoint, cash = everything, cap = nothing. The IRS doesn't care even for one second what the salary cap impact for a pro football franchise is. They care about cash flow.

Owners have a habit of not paying low quality players high dollars, unless they have to. And in the cases we're discussing, they don't have to.
 
I agree. I'd prefer London, Burks or Williams or even Pickens if he is there in the 2nd round. All have #1 WR talent and 4/5 yrs of control at a reasonable cost.

I'm not going to be surprised at all if the Ravens draft a WR in the 1st round. Not surprised at all.
I'd be stunned. We go BPA in the 1st round and there's no way either a QB or a WR will be BPA for us regardless of who gets picked ahead of us
 
I'd be stunned. We go BPA in the 1st round and there's no way either a QB or a WR will be BPA for us regardless of who gets picked ahead of us

really?
there's some pretty big grades in the league on Wilson
I've got a big grade on London

not saying they actually take them but why wouldnt they be BPA at 14?
 
How is Mahomes fully guaranteed all of his contract? It's literally just a series of roster bonuses and non-guaranteed salaries. After about year 3-4, he's literally on the textbook definition of a year-to-year contract. He has 10 years left on his deal, of which 6 have no dead money whatsoever attached to them (meaning they're year to year) and the 5th has a miniscule amount. 50% of his remaining contract is essentially written in pencil.

Honestly I think you're overvaluing the dead money to cap ratio. You're assuming that because the dead money is more than the cap savings, teams won't cut the player. That's not an assumption you should make. #1, that happens all the time, every year. Teams routinely cut players where the dead money is > the cap savings. They do that because dead money = sunk costs, i.e. its irrelevant to decision making. There's no decision anybody can make that will reduce it, #2, for a franchise, they're still a for-profit enterprise, where cash spend arguably means more than cap spend. Cap is fictional. Even if the dead money is 70-80% of a cap hit, that doesn't mean a team will just pay the guy a salary that's not commensurate with his production. If the key provides no value, the team will rather have X $M in net income than pay the guy, regardless of cap hit.

Remember, from a business standpoint, cash = everything, cap = nothing. The IRS doesn't care even for one second what the salary cap impact for a pro football franchise is. They care about cash flow.

Owners have a habit of not paying low quality players high dollars, unless they have to. And in the cases we're discussing, they don't have to.

Mahomes yearly roster guarantees are not for the upcoming season he is to play, they are for the season following that. There is not a single year where they would not incur a crippling dead money hit cutting Mahomes because of that. Tannehill copied it and did something similar with his 3 year deal where the 3rd year salary was guaranteed after the first week of the league year of his 2nd season into the deal so he always had 1+ year of guaranteed salary.

I am trying to think offhand though the last time I saw a team cut a player that made the team lose cap space. Outside of when the player is a PR disaster I just cannot remember seeing it. These teams throw cash at players without hesitation but structure the cap around having to deal with it later. Void years and minimum salaries have been the rage the past few years for this exact purpose.
 
Mahomes yearly roster guarantees are not for the upcoming season he is to play, they are for the season following that. There is not a single year where they would not incur a crippling dead money hit cutting Mahomes because of that. Tannehill copied it and did something similar with his 3 year deal where the 3rd year salary was guaranteed after the first week of the league year of his 2nd season into the deal so he always had 1+ year of guaranteed salary.

I am trying to think offhand though the last time I saw a team cut a player that made the team lose cap space. Outside of when the player is a PR disaster I just cannot remember seeing it. These teams throw cash at players without hesitation but structure the cap around having to deal with it later. Void years and minimum salaries have been the rage the past few years for this exact purpose.
1. That's true on the bonuses, except that's also plenty of time for them. It's not like he's going to fall off a cliff in one season. Even if he had an Alex-Smith level injury during the season, it'll only set you back one year, because the following year, you can decline bonuses and get off free. Not a franchise killing move.
2. You're describing two different things. Cutting a player where there's negative cap savings is an entirely different thing than cutting a player where dead money > cap savings. A player can have a $16M cap hit, with $10M in dead money, and $6M in cap savings, and the player will get cut. Happens all the time. If you're talking straight negative cap savings, then again, I don't see how the Mahomes deal has anything to do with that. Even in an Alex Smith scenario, they've got an easy out in year 2. They have no multi-year obligation to him beyond 2024. Do they have to pick up the option before the prior season? Sure, but that's nothing new. Plenty of contracts are like that. But that only leaves them on the hook for one more year, nothing more.

The overall premise of the discussion was on the perceived influx of WR salaries. It's mostly fictional. We're talking about large roster bonuses becoming guaranteed a year before, and none of the high end WRs have that.

Tyreek Hill has a 5 year deal, where the 3rd year base salary becomes guaranteed before year 2. That's it. Year's 4 and 5 are total pencil years. The Dolphins can simply opt to get rid of him after year 3, and not pay over 50% of his contract. There's no roster bonuses or anything that guarantees. It's just fictitious salaries.

Davante Adams is no different. His is actually worse, because he has no guaranteed money after year 2 (on a five year deal). He'll get year 3, but on an alleged $140M deal, the Raiders can erase two years and $71M off of it with no consequences whatsoever. At no point in time does any of the money become guaranteed.

That's the point of the argument. You can literally make these guys the highest paid for ego, but none of it is real. They'll never see it. You can offer a WR $200M over five years and never pay him more than a third off, depending on the structure. And I'm not totally unconvinced, based on some of these deals they're signing, that these players aren't stupid enough to take it.

As got Christian Kirk, it's a two year deal. He has almost no guaranteed money beyond year 2, and they get $11.5M in cap savings with $10M in dead money in 2024 if they move on. That would be an easy decision if he doesn't produce. You can also spread that $10M over two years if you want to, which makes it easier.

And if he does produce, a $16M compensation in three years will be a bargain for a WR who's playing well, which is what they'll be paying him that year. Cap hit will be higher, but cap is fictional. It's not a reflection of actual cash flow. He's getting $22.5M this year in cash flow, which is the most he'll get throughout the contract.
 
1. That's true on the bonuses, except that's also plenty of time for them. It's not like he's going to fall off a cliff in one season. Even if he had an Alex-Smith level injury during the season, it'll only set you back one year, because the following year, you can decline bonuses and get off free. Not a franchise killing move.
2. You're describing two different things. Cutting a player where there's negative cap savings is an entirely different thing than cutting a player where dead money > cap savings. A player can have a $16M cap hit, with $10M in dead money, and $6M in cap savings, and the player will get cut. Happens all the time. If you're talking straight negative cap savings, then again, I don't see how the Mahomes deal has anything to do with that. Even in an Alex Smith scenario, they've got an easy out in year 2. They have no multi-year obligation to him beyond 2024. Do they have to pick up the option before the prior season? Sure, but that's nothing new. Plenty of contracts are like that. But that only leaves them on the hook for one more year, nothing more.

The overall premise of the discussion was on the perceived influx of WR salaries. It's mostly fictional. We're talking about large roster bonuses becoming guaranteed a year before, and none of the high end WRs have that.

Tyreek Hill has a 5 year deal, where the 3rd year base salary becomes guaranteed before year 2. That's it. Year's 4 and 5 are total pencil years. The Dolphins can simply opt to get rid of him after year 3, and not pay over 50% of his contract. There's no roster bonuses or anything that guarantees. It's just fictitious salaries.

Davante Adams is no different. His is actually worse, because he has no guaranteed money after year 2 (on a five year deal). He'll get year 3, but on an alleged $140M deal, the Raiders can erase two years and $71M off of it with no consequences whatsoever. At no point in time does any of the money become guaranteed.

That's the point of the argument. You can literally make these guys the highest paid for ego, but none of it is real. They'll never see it. You can offer a WR $200M over five years and never pay him more than a third off, depending on the structure. And I'm not totally unconvinced, based on some of these deals they're signing, that these players aren't stupid enough to take it.

As got Christian Kirk, it's a two year deal. He has almost no guaranteed money beyond year 2, and they get $11.5M in cap savings with $10M in dead money in 2024 if they move on. That would be an easy decision if he doesn't produce. You can also spread that $10M over two years if you want to, which makes it easier.

And if he does produce, a $16M compensation in three years will be a bargain for a WR who's playing well, which is what they'll be paying him that year. Cap hit will be higher, but cap is fictional. It's not a reflection of actual cash flow. He's getting $22.5M this year in cash flow, which is the most he'll get throughout the contract.
You’re wild
 
if it's a day 3 pick then you absolutely risk it with the knowledge that you just cut him if it doesnt work out

There’s no dead money if we cut him? Don’t we take on the risk of cutting a 1st round contract?
 
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