Signings, Cuts, Trades

[rossihunter2]

There’s no dead money if we cut him? Don’t we take on the risk of cutting a 1st round contract?

not sure if any of the contract is guaranteed
think it's only bonus money which is taken on as dead money by the giants in any hypothetical trade

not sure whether there's any base salary guarantees before the 4th year (which can sometimes only be guaranteed if you pick up the 5th year option)

 

[ChainedBird]

really?
there's some pretty big grades in the league on Wilson
I've got a big grade on London

not saying they actually take them but why wouldnt they be BPA at 14?

I mean they might be BPA at 14 (or higher) for some teams, but I don't think the ravens see it that way. In the same way that Linderbaum will likely be a lot lower on our boards than others due to scheme fit, I reckon any early round WRs will be much lower for us than for other teams because we are so stocked in that room

 

[rmcjacket23]

not sure if any of the contract is guaranteed
think it's only bonus money which is taken on as dead money by the giants in any hypothetical trade

not sure whether there's any base salary guarantees before the 4th year (which can sometimes only be guaranteed if you pick up the 5th year option)

Its a fully guaranteed contract. We'd be assuming fully guaranteed base salaries of $1.2, $1.9, $2.5M. Obviously not expensive, but I'd still be surprised to see the move happen.

I really don't understand why the Giants would want to trade arguably their best offensive weapon, who's also dirt cheap.

 

[rossihunter2]

I mean they might be BPA at 14 (or higher) for some teams, but I don't think the ravens see it that way. In the same way that Linderbaum will likely be a lot lower on our boards than others due to scheme fit, I reckon any early round WRs will be much lower for us than for other teams because we are so stocked in that room

scheme has tons to do with why Linderbaum might not be a high pick
but it will have nothing to do with the WRs at all - they're all scheme fits

i think you're mistaking need with scheme/fit here - the ravens aren't going to artificially lower their grades on WRs just because they dont need them... that's just not their MO

what they may do is try to manoeuvre their way around the board to put themselves into a spot where the BPA is at a position of need

need is the final tiebreaker not the first one

 

[rossihunter2]

Its a fully guaranteed contract. We'd be assuming fully guaranteed base salaries of $1.2, $1.9, $2.5M. Obviously not expensive, but I'd still be surprised to see the move happen.

I really don't understand why the Giants would want to trade arguably their best offensive weapon, who's also dirt cheap.

are all rookie deals full guaranteed now?
is that from the new CBA?

 

[Sandtown]

If all what has been said about Toney is true in regards to his commitment to his profession so far then I don't think see how that's going to go well with John Harbaugh. Maybe coaches like Pete Carroll can deal with a player like that but not John.

 

[ChainedBird]

scheme has tons to do with why Linderbaum might not be a high pick
but it will have nothing to do with the WRs at all - they're all scheme fits

i think you're mistaking need with scheme/fit here - the ravens aren't going to artificially lower their grades on WRs just because they dont need them... that's just not their MO

what they may do is try to manoeuvre their way around the board to put themselves into a spot where the BPA is at a position of need

need is the final tiebreaker not the first one

I mostly agree with you. But, every year there is a position or two where we are so stacked that it makes no sense to spend a 1st/2nd.

Say for example a QB was the most highly rated player at 14 (as unlikely as that is this year) and we weren't able to find a trade down partner, in your model would you expect them to take the QB? I reckon they'd skip over them and take the next best player.

For me the stacked positions this year that are locked out of the first couple of rounds are QB and WR, everything else is fair game

 

[rossihunter2]

I mostly agree with you. But, every year there is a position or two where we are so stacked that it makes no sense to spend a 1st/2nd.

Say for example a QB was the most highly rated player at 14 (as unlikely as that is this year) and we weren't able to find a trade down partner, in your model would you expect them to take the QB? I reckon they'd skip over them and take the next best player.

For me the stacked positions this year that are locked out of the first couple of rounds are QB and WR, everything else is fair game

obviously that's the case with QB
i just dont know that i believe that at WR - yes we're stacked, yes we don't need to add another guy - but it's not like anyone we drafted at the position high wouldn't get on the field and immediately contribute...

in the same way we're seriously considering drafting a CB high despite the fact we've got 2 all-pro CBs already on the roster... obviously the level of depth and the contractual situations at the 2 positions are vastly different right now but they're not completely different...

 

[rmcjacket23]

are all rookie deals full guaranteed now?
is that from the new CBA?

I think it's just first rounders, normally. Think first round deals have been fully guaranteed for many years now.

 

[Deebo813]

obviously that's the case with QB
i just dont know that i believe that at WR - yes we're stacked, yes we don't need to add another guy - but it's not like anyone we drafted at the position high wouldn't get on the field and immediately contribute...

in the same way we're seriously considering drafting a CB high despite the fact we've got 2 all-pro CBs already on the roster... obviously the level of depth and the contractual situations at the 2 positions are vastly different right now but they're not completely different...

after those 2 cbs its nothing there though. If one gets hurt again, we are doomed once again. Not to mention peters coming off a serious injury so there is no telling how he may look..

 

[rmcjacket23]

obviously that's the case with QB
i just dont know that i believe that at WR - yes we're stacked, yes we don't need to add another guy - but it's not like anyone we drafted at the position high wouldn't get on the field and immediately contribute...

in the same way we're seriously considering drafting a CB high despite the fact we've got 2 all-pro CBs already on the roster... obviously the level of depth and the contractual situations at the 2 positions are vastly different right now but they're not completely different...

Right I think it's more about looking at the high investments you've made at the position in recent years, and understanding that's not sustainable to do that like a whole bunch of the time.

In the last three years, we've drafted six WRs total, two in the first round, and two in the third round. By NFL standards, for a single position group, it doesn't get much heavier of an investment than that (at least from the draft standpoint). Knowing that, I can't see them going WR again high. I'm not even expecting it on day 2. Day 3 is a possibility, but I just don't think its a priority at all for us right now.

CB is a whole different beast. Teams routinely play 3-4 Corners at a time, and we effectively have two on the roster who are playable at this point, and one of them is coming off a major injury. For comparison, since we took Marlon in 2017, we've essentially not taken a single DB higher than the 3rd round the last four drafts, and that was Stephens, who's more likely to be a hybrid/Safety. Certainly not a true Corner.
We took Averett in the 4th in 2018, who's now gone, Marshall in the 4th in 2019, which who knows when/if he'll ever really contribute, and we took Wade in the 5th last year, who's gone.

I have zero doubt the Ravens are going to attack secondary in this draft. Maybe its not first round, but I'd be stunned if we don't come out with at least 2 Corners, possibly even 3, and I bet at least one is before the end of day 2. If I were laying bets, I'd say we take a Corner before the end of the 2nd round.

The last four drafts have largely neglected the secondary (justifiable given who we had and the veterans we had), but that's not the case any longer.

I'm sure we'll get a quality Olineman at some point, but I think before we get to the end of like rounds 4-5, you're going to look at this draft and be like "damn did we hammer Corners and pass rushers".

 

[rossihunter2]

I think it's just first rounders, normally. Think first round deals have been fully guaranteed for many years now.

id assumed otherwise after the isaiah wilson saga but i just checked and saw the titans ate about 5m in guarantees to trade him
but the guarantees voided when he didnt do a bunch of things with miami and they cut him 3 days later

was looking this up to see - apparently all the contracts are fully guaranteed but you can negotiate different language with regards to voiding guarantees for suspensions etc.

not sure what the specific language in toney's contract is - but he's already doing better than wilson with regards to the fact that he actually got on the field and played well lol

 

[rossihunter2]

after those 2 cbs its nothing there though. If one gets hurt again, we are doomed once again. Not to mention peters coming off a serious injury so there is no telling how he may look..

which is why i think CB is a major need
just pointing to the fact that when framed in a certain way the positions arent completely different yet we see one as undraftable high and the other as a must-draft high (maybe even must-draft R1 lol)

 

[rossihunter2]

Right I think it's more about looking at the high investments you've made at the position in recent years, and understanding that's not sustainable to do that like a whole bunch of the time.

In the last three years, we've drafted six WRs total, two in the first round, and two in the third round. By NFL standards, for a single position group, it doesn't get much heavier of an investment than that (at least from the draft standpoint). Knowing that, I can't see them going WR again high. I'm not even expecting it on day 2. Day 3 is a possibility, but I just don't think its a priority at all for us right now.

CB is a whole different beast. Teams routinely play 3-4 Corners at a time, and we effectively have two on the roster who are playable at this point, and one of them is coming off a major injury. For comparison, since we took Marlon in 2017, we've essentially not taken a single DB higher than the 3rd round the last four drafts, and that was Stephens, who's more likely to be a hybrid/Safety. Certainly not a true Corner.
We took Averett in the 4th in 2018, who's now gone, Marshall in the 4th in 2019, which who knows when/if he'll ever really contribute, and we took Wade in the 5th last year, who's gone.

I have zero doubt the Ravens are going to attack secondary in this draft. Maybe its not first round, but I'd be stunned if we don't come out with at least 2 Corners, possibly even 3, and I bet at least one is before the end of day 2. If I were laying bets, I'd say we take a Corner before the end of the 2nd round.

The last four drafts have largely neglected the secondary (justifiable given who we had and the veterans we had), but that's not the case any longer.

I'm sure we'll get a quality Olineman at some point, but I think before we get to the end of like rounds 4-5, you're going to look at this draft and be like "damn did we hammer Corners and pass rushers".

i agree with all of this
just merely using that framing as a point about BPA and the fact that it's not out of the question they could take one

maybe unlikely because they'd probably prefer to trade out of a pick where WR is BPA (tbh probably prefer to trade out of the pick even if WR isnt BPA at this point too) but not impossible and they could justify the expenditure if they wanted to because the guy they draft isnt gonna be sat on the bench behind a load of high quality starters

 

[BoredMarine13]

What about attacking CB in free agency and the draft? Bouye is getting up there in age but could contribute immediately for what I assume would be a reasonable price.

 

[Simba]

What about attacking CB in free agency and the draft? Bouye is getting up there in age but could contribute immediately for what I assume would be a reasonable price.

I’d be surprised if a veteran isn’t signed but no reason to do that now. It’s a very deep draft and I’d be hard pressed to believe there aren’t opportunities to come away with multiple CBs in this draft. One of the positions where you can be patient and adjust as needed this year.

 

[rmcjacket23]

id assumed otherwise after the isaiah wilson saga but i just checked and saw the titans ate about 5m in guarantees to trade him
but the guarantees voided when he didnt do a bunch of things with miami and they cut him 3 days later

was looking this up to see - apparently all the contracts are fully guaranteed but you can negotiate different language with regards to voiding guarantees for suspensions etc.

not sure what the specific language in toney's contract is - but he's already doing better than wilson with regards to the fact that he actually got on the field and played well lol

There's typically offset language in a lot of first round deals (it's one of the sticking points in negotiations when they hold out). Specifically for cut players. If the Giants were to cut Toney (they won't, obviously), a lot of those deals have offset language that says the amount the Giants would owe him gets reduced by whatever the next team is paying him. Basically they don't highly drafted rookies double-dipping.

 

[rmcjacket23]

What about attacking CB in free agency and the draft? Bouye is getting up there in age but could contribute immediately for what I assume would be a reasonable price.

Well at the moment we don't really have the cap space to do much of anything, and certainly not to sign anybody of note. We'd need to create space to do that, which we can, but it hasn't been done yet.

Have no doubt we'll resume signings veterans in May probably, just like most teams. But the draft will dictate which areas those are in.

I'm not opposed to one-year fillers at certain spots, but like Corner, Dline, and Edge are areas where I'd like to see us get younger, not older.

 

[BoredMarine13]

Well at the moment we don't really have the cap space to do much of anything, and certainly not to sign anybody of note. We'd need to create space to do that, which we can, but it hasn't been done yet.

Have no doubt we'll resume signings veterans in May probably, just like most teams. But the draft will dictate which areas those are in.

I'm not opposed to one-year fillers at certain spots, but like Corner, Dline, and Edge are areas where I'd like to see us get younger, not older.

If we get Lamar under contract will that void the 5th year option guarantees ? That could be a good chunk of cap savings, depending on the structure, at-least for 2022

 

[Ellicottraven]

If we get Lamar under contract will that void the 5th year option guarantees ? That could be a good chunk of cap savings, depending on the structure, at-least for 2022

I think so. That was the idea of getting him signed this off-season by the Ravens I think.