The Random Thought Thread

[rmcjacket23]

I'm sure this has been discussed ad-nausea elsewhere, but...

Am I the only one who's not buying this idea that its a foregone conclusion we lose Roman and/or Wink to a HC gig?

I honestly don't see why a team would hire either of them. Roman is certainly not just a "plug and play" guru OC who can take any player in any system and make them great. He's a run-first play-caller who's career success is driven by maximizing a mobile, dual-threat QB with a successful rushing attack.

Given that there's only really 3 job openings available right now (4 if you include the Cowboys), where does he fit in? I think he'd be a terrible fit with the Giants and Daniel Jones, and I don't see how Baker Mayfield or Dak Prescott (Roman isn't nearly "sexy enough" to be a Jerry Jones hire) would be any good at running the kind of system he wants to run. So that pretty much just leaves the Panthers. I think it could work there, but that's assuming you think Cam can run that offense effectively at his age (who they're not committed to beyond 2020) or that you think the Panthers have the ability to go get a QB who can run that style of offense.

I think its going to take a better "fit" for Roman to be a strong candidate for a HC job, and I don't see the current openings as fits.

As for Wink, I could maybe also see him in a place like Carolina, but I'm just not seeing it. He has all the makings, to me, of an aggressive assistant coach who is more of a "player friendly coach" than a lot of teams are looking for, and I think a guy like him would need a very strong supporting cash of coaches (namely a great OC) to be successful. I think teams like Dallas, Cleveland and the Giants are going to be primarily focused on getting offensive-minded HC's who can mesh well and develop their franchise QBs.

So basically, I think Carolina is the only opening for either of these guys that makes a little bit of sense, and thus far, I've not seen them linked to that team.

 

[rossihunter2]

also, Lamar is getting attention there, nobody in their right mind would make nick foles a sole reason on a pass play which is why it worked, half the goddamn teams in the league wanted Lamar to play WR less than 2 years ago so as this play forms there’s likely still a spy on Lamar.

in terms of this bit here - the whole point of trickeration is to create a coverage bust type deal and if you create the look late in the down then its really hard for the defence to adjust and may end up sending 2 defenders to lamar which creates a massive opening elsewhere or different defenders decide someone else has lamar and he's wide open...

there's all sorts of reasons why that would work if it was tried - especially as teams know that a spy on any normal down really doesnt work against lamar

 

[rossihunter2]

I'm sure this has been discussed ad-nausea elsewhere, but...

Am I the only one who's not buying this idea that its a foregone conclusion we lose Roman and/or Wink to a HC gig?

I honestly don't see why a team would hire either of them. Roman is certainly not just a "plug and play" guru OC who can take any player in any system and make them great. He's a run-first play-caller who's career success is driven by maximizing a mobile, dual-threat QB with a successful rushing attack.

Given that there's only really 3 job openings available right now (4 if you include the Cowboys), where does he fit in? I think he'd be a terrible fit with the Giants and Daniel Jones, and I don't see how Baker Mayfield or Dak Prescott (Roman isn't nearly "sexy enough" to be a Jerry Jones hire) would be any good at running the kind of system he wants to run. So that pretty much just leaves the Panthers. I think it could work there, but that's assuming you think Cam can run that offense effectively at his age (who they're not committed to beyond 2020) or that you think the Panthers have the ability to go get a QB who can run that style of offense.

I think its going to take a better "fit" for Roman to be a strong candidate for a HC job, and I don't see the current openings as fits.

As for Wink, I could maybe also see him in a place like Carolina, but I'm just not seeing it. He has all the makings, to me, of an aggressive assistant coach who is more of a "player friendly coach" than a lot of teams are looking for, and I think a guy like him would need a very strong supporting cash of coaches (namely a great OC) to be successful. I think teams like Dallas, Cleveland and the Giants are going to be primarily focused on getting offensive-minded HC's who can mesh well and develop their franchise QBs.

So basically, I think Carolina is the only opening for either of these guys that makes a little bit of sense, and thus far, I've not seen them linked to that team.

i think the fear was that there would be the normal league average 6-8 (and most recently 8) HC openings around the league so that there would be more opportunities for wink and roman to be pulled away + no real sense at that point for how much teams were looking at college candidates also - that combined with the nature of the positions and the fact that neither guy has HC experience in their past has definitely aided both their chances of staying

I think you're being a little unfair to greg roman though to suggest that he's stuck in his system - he's never been in situations where he's had the opportunity to do anything differently and he's clearly tailored his offences around the individual talents on the team - now you wont find comparative elite athleticism at qb anywhere else but all qbs are more mobile at this point and we just saw how effective this running game is even against a great defence with RGIII and a 2nd team OL and no passing game to speak of - to suggest that wouldnt translate elsewhere is a little premature and to suggest that Roman wouldnt adapt to the talent around him is also kind of unfounded

that being said the way the wind is blowing would suggest at least 1 and (as every day goes by) probably both are going to be back here next year and that's not going to be bad for their HC chances next year either...

 

[allblackraven]

I hope the hell not.

I do NOT believe in taking the ball out of your best players hands for the sake of trickery, scheme, or anything of that nature.

if Lamar gets a philly special, that means someone else is holding the ball, someone far less dangerous and skilled, someone who is likely far less poised to deliver than Lamar. I’ll take 4 consecutive plays with Lamar taking the snap and running our regular playbook before I’d take a single snap of him running a route.

also, Lamar is getting attention there, nobody in their right mind would make nick foles a sole reason on a pass play which is why it worked, half the goddamn teams in the league wanted Lamar to play WR less than 2 years ago so as this play forms there’s likely still a spy on Lamar.

Well, maybe not - nobody ever saw Lamar catching football, can't be considered big threat out wide.

 

[RavensMania]

i think the fear was that there would be the normal league average 6-8 (and most recently 8) HC openings around the league so that there would be more opportunities for wink and roman to be pulled away + no real sense at that point for how much teams were looking at college candidates also - that combined with the nature of the positions and the fact that neither guy has HC experience in their past has definitely aided both their chances of staying

I think you're being a little unfair to greg roman though to suggest that he's stuck in his system - he's never been in situations where he's had the opportunity to do anything differently and he's clearly tailored his offences around the individual talents on the team - now you wont find comparative elite athleticism at qb anywhere else but all qbs are more mobile at this point and we just saw how effective this running game is even against a great defence with RGIII and a 2nd team OL and no passing game to speak of - to suggest that wouldnt translate elsewhere is a little premature and to suggest that Roman wouldnt adapt to the talent around him is also kind of unfounded

that being said the way the wind is blowing would suggest at least 1 and (as every day goes by) probably both are going to be back here next year and that's not going to be bad for their HC chances next year either...

most people forget that when Greg Roman was in San Francisco, prior to Kaepernick starting, he had Alex Smith as his QB. Up to the point of Greg Roman, Smith hadn't had much success either. Greg Roman added some of the spread concepts Alex Smith used in college and it was pretty successful.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I'm sure this has been discussed ad-nausea elsewhere, but...

Am I the only one who's not buying this idea that its a foregone conclusion we lose Roman and/or Wink to a HC gig?

I honestly don't see why a team would hire either of them. Roman is certainly not just a "plug and play" guru OC who can take any player in any system and make them great. He's a run-first play-caller who's career success is driven by maximizing a mobile, dual-threat QB with a successful rushing attack.

Given that there's only really 3 job openings available right now (4 if you include the Cowboys), where does he fit in? I think he'd be a terrible fit with the Giants and Daniel Jones, and I don't see how Baker Mayfield or Dak Prescott (Roman isn't nearly "sexy enough" to be a Jerry Jones hire) would be any good at running the kind of system he wants to run. So that pretty much just leaves the Panthers. I think it could work there, but that's assuming you think Cam can run that offense effectively at his age (who they're not committed to beyond 2020) or that you think the Panthers have the ability to go get a QB who can run that style of offense.

I think its going to take a better "fit" for Roman to be a strong candidate for a HC job, and I don't see the current openings as fits.

As for Wink, I could maybe also see him in a place like Carolina, but I'm just not seeing it. He has all the makings, to me, of an aggressive assistant coach who is more of a "player friendly coach" than a lot of teams are looking for, and I think a guy like him would need a very strong supporting cash of coaches (namely a great OC) to be successful. I think teams like Dallas, Cleveland and the Giants are going to be primarily focused on getting offensive-minded HC's who can mesh well and develop their franchise QBs.

So basically, I think Carolina is the only opening for either of these guys that makes a little bit of sense, and thus far, I've not seen them linked to that team.

is It a foregone conclusion that Roman needs a mobile qb? SF was dominant with Alex Smith before kaepernick came, and I argue that they may have fucked around and beat us if smith was playing in the SB, and I know smith is very athletic and all but he’s clearly not a run first qb.

All Roman needs is a strong TE room, one burner at wr, a very good RB, one road grading OL and one athletic OL and he will make the shit work.

 

[Adreme]

is It a foregone conclusion that Roman needs a mobile qb? SF was dominant with Alex Smith before kaepernick came, and I argue that they may have fucked around and beat us if smith was playing in the SB, and I know smith is very athletic and all but he’s clearly not a run first qb.

All Roman needs is a strong TE room, one burner at wr, a very good RB, one road grading OL and one athletic OL and he will make the shit work.

Smith is not run first but I would argue that he was always fairly mobile. Most QBs nowadays have some mobility to them, but I would assume he needs a QB with some mobility and not a pure pocket passer.

 

[RavensMania]

is It a foregone conclusion that Roman needs a mobile qb? SF was dominant with Alex Smith before kaepernick came, and I argue that they may have fucked around and beat us if smith was playing in the SB, and I know smith is very athletic and all but he’s clearly not a run first qb.

All Roman needs is a strong TE room, one burner at wr, a very good RB, one road grading OL and one athletic OL and he will make the shit work.

Kaepernick was a run first QB, but Lamar Jackson, although he has the ability to run, isn't a run first qb and I wish people would stop referring to him as such or even a running qb. He's an athletic QB and not a running quarterback.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Smith is not run first but I would argue that he was always fairly mobile. Most QBs nowadays have some mobility to them, but I would assume he needs a QB with some mobility and not a pure pocket passer.

I mentioned that Smith was very athletic, maybe mobile was the better word

Kaepernick was a run first QB, but Lamar Jackson, although he has the ability to run, isn't a run first qb and I wish people would stop referring to him as such or even a running qb. He's an athletic QB and not a running quarterback.

i know this, but for the sake of this topic that’s just the terminology, it’s clearly linking Roman to a qb who can run, and id rather use the term run first qb when lumping every single one of romans QBs together, rather than differentiating one guy and using the term “athletic qb who can run”. I’m not complicating shit lol

Just ease of conversation

 

[RavensMania]

I mentioned that Smith was very athletic, maybe mobile was the better word


i know this, but for the sake of this topic that’s just the terminology, it’s clearly linking Roman to a qb who can run, and id rather use the term run first qb when lumping every single one of romans QBs together, rather than differentiating one guy and using the term “athletic qb who can run”. I’m not complicating shit lol

Just ease of conversation

I actually wasn't bringing this up because of you and should have said it. I was bringing it up because you used the term and it kind of set me off.

I also know you weren't referring to Lamar as a run first quarterback.

 

[UPennChem]

Kaepernick was a run first QB, but Lamar Jackson, although he has the ability to run, isn't a run first qb and I wish people would stop referring to him as such or even a running qb. He's an athletic QB and not a running quarterback.

While I understand the sentiment and wholeheartedly agree with what you mean behind what you're saying, I have to respectfully disagree. He is in no way a run first quart back, that's a fact. However he very much is a running quarterback because he has at least a few designed runs called for him a game and additionally due to his absolute athletic prowess sometimes turns nothing plays into big gains with his feet. He's a monster. Not a run first quarterback, but a running quarterback

 

[RavensMania]

While I understand the sentiment and wholeheartedly agree with what you mean behind what you're saying, I have to respectfully disagree. He is in no way a run first quart back, that's a fact. However he very much is a running quarterback because he has at least a few designed runs called for him a game and additionally due to his absolute athletic prowess sometimes turns nothing plays into big gains with his feet. He's a monster. Not a run first quarterback, but a running quarterback

I never said Lamar Jackson was a run first quarterback, he's far and away not a run first quarterback. Kaepernick didn't really go through progressions and when the offensive line would start to break down, he would run without keeping his eyes downfield. Something that LJ does on a regular basis. We may have to agree to disagree on Kaepernick.

 

[UPennChem]

I never said Lamar Jackson was a run first quarterback, he's far and away not a run first quarterback. Kaepernick didn't really go through progressions and when the offensive line would start to break down, he would run without keeping his eyes downfield. Something that LJ does on a regular basis. We may have to agree to disagree on Kaepernick.

No no no. I was unclear. I was talking about Lamar. Lamar is not a run first quarterback, but he is a running quarterback. Kaepernick was very much a run first quarterback.

 

[Dom McRaven]

Lamarpower

It PALES IN COMPARISON to this display of treason.

Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:

 

[rossihunter2]

It PALES IN COMPARISON to this display of treason.

Exhibit A:


Exhibit B:

tbf looks like the original one that mania posted - the woman was at least always a ravens fan

 

[Dom McRaven]

tbf looks like the original one that mania posted - the woman was at least always a ravens fan

The Ravens tweet was the only I could find from her. She has PLENTY of pro-Steelers tweets.

 

[rmcjacket23]

i think the fear was that there would be the normal league average 6-8 (and most recently 8) HC openings around the league so that there would be more opportunities for wink and roman to be pulled away + no real sense at that point for how much teams were looking at college candidates also - that combined with the nature of the positions and the fact that neither guy has HC experience in their past has definitely aided both their chances of staying

I think you're being a little unfair to greg roman though to suggest that he's stuck in his system - he's never been in situations where he's had the opportunity to do anything differently and he's clearly tailored his offences around the individual talents on the team - now you wont find comparative elite athleticism at qb anywhere else but all qbs are more mobile at this point and we just saw how effective this running game is even against a great defence with RGIII and a 2nd team OL and no passing game to speak of - to suggest that wouldnt translate elsewhere is a little premature and to suggest that Roman wouldnt adapt to the talent around him is also kind of unfounded

that being said the way the wind is blowing would suggest at least 1 and (as every day goes by) probably both are going to be back here next year and that's not going to be bad for their HC chances next year either...

1. Sure, I can buy the "less opportunities" aspect, but I also never thought it would be more than 6-7 to begin with, and we're at 5. The only other organization I actually expected would have an opening was Jacksonville, and again, I don't see how he fits in that well there. I don't think any other lack of firings were really that surprising.
2. Perhaps I am being a little unfair to Roman... but at the very least, a team hiring him to do something differently than what they've seen with either Kaepernick or Lamar is basically hiring him to do something they've never seen him do before, which in my opinion, is an extraordinary leap of faith.

 

[rmcjacket23]

is It a foregone conclusion that Roman needs a mobile qb? SF was dominant with Alex Smith before kaepernick came, and I argue that they may have fucked around and beat us if smith was playing in the SB, and I know smith is very athletic and all but he’s clearly not a run first qb.

All Roman needs is a strong TE room, one burner at wr, a very good RB, one road grading OL and one athletic OL and he will make the shit work.

No, I don't think its a foregone conclusion.

But I think if Colin Kaepernick never existed, Roman would have never even been considered as a HC candidate, given what he produced with SF and Alex Smith specifically.

My other sort of thought would be this... why isn't he still the OC in SF? Why isn't he still the OC in Buffalo? Heck, when we hired him, why didn't we hire him to be the OC?

Maybe you can chalk it up to turnover at HC in those spots, but its not like new HCs aren't looking to bring in quality OC's who can run a quality system, which is what Roman appears to be to me. If he can run the ball everywhere he goes, and get at least competent to above average QB play everywhere he goes, why isn't he in such high demand as an OC everywhere?

I'm not even trying to put the guy down. Obviously, he's incredibly important to what we're doing here. I'm just not buying that he's a "plug and play" stud at doing anything else well other than running the football well. Maybe there's teams interested in that, but there's also teams in this league that run the ball quite well that can't win anything.

In my opinion, Roman and Wink are the same guys. Styles that work in this league with the personnel they desire and mold, and are exceptionally good at what they do... game planning and making adjustments to their sides of the ball. I just don't think they're the kinds of guys who you want to run the full operation. You're giving them more responsibility in other areas, and taking them out of the details that make them so good at what they do.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

No, I don't think its a foregone conclusion.

But I think if Colin Kaepernick never existed, Roman would have never even been considered as a HC candidate, given what he produced with SF and Alex Smith specifically.

My other sort of thought would be this... why isn't he still the OC in SF? Why isn't he still the OC in Buffalo? Heck, when we hired him, why didn't we hire him to be the OC?

Maybe you can chalk it up to turnover at HC in those spots, but its not like new HCs aren't looking to bring in quality OC's who can run a quality system, which is what Roman appears to be to me. If he can run the ball everywhere he goes, and get at least competent to above average QB play everywhere he goes, why isn't he in such high demand as an OC everywhere?

I'm not even trying to put the guy down. Obviously, he's incredibly important to what we're doing here. I'm just not buying that he's a "plug and play" stud at doing anything else well other than running the football well. Maybe there's teams interested in that, but there's also teams in this league that run the ball quite well that can't win anything.

In my opinion, Roman and Wink are the same guys. Styles that work in this league with the personnel they desire and mold, and are exceptionally good at what they do... game planning and making adjustments to their sides of the ball. I just don't think they're the kinds of guys who you want to run the full operation. You're giving them more responsibility in other areas, and taking them out of the details that make them so good at what they do.

In SF it appeared to be a complete cleaning of house, and in buffalo(and I said this at the time of his firing) it looked like Rex flailing for a scapegoat, Roman was everything but the problem there.

and yeah he’s not a slam dunk plug and play guy, he runs an unorthodox offense, and that’s where I think the problem lies. It’s not that his offense requires Lamar Jackson to work, it’s that teams aren’t looking to run the ball 35 times a game in 2020. In an era where every owner seems to wanna see their team throwing for 4800 yards and having the QB be the face of the franchise, and with all the premiums being paid to corners and pass rushers and WRs, we are just in an NFL that is clamoring for a Greg Roman offense.

what we may be seeing is Roman bucking the trend. What we’ve done this year could literally be a change in philosophy league wide.

 

[RavensMania]

1. Sure, I can buy the "less opportunities" aspect, but I also never thought it would be more than 6-7 to begin with, and we're at 5. The only other organization I actually expected would have an opening was Jacksonville, and again, I don't see how he fits in that well there. I don't think any other lack of firings were really that surprising.
2. Perhaps I am being a little unfair to Roman... but at the very least, a team hiring him to do something differently than what they've seen with either Kaepernick or Lamar is basically hiring him to do something they've never seen him do before, which in my opinion, is an extraordinary leap of faith.

we aren't even at five. There were four from the start and the Skins have already hired Rivera. The Cowboys don't have an opening yet.