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The Random Thought Thread

RavensMania

RavensMania

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JoeyFlex5 said:
In SF it appeared to be a complete cleaning of house, and in buffalo(and I said this at the time of his firing) it looked like Rex flailing for a scapegoat, Roman was everything but the problem there.

and yeah he’s not a slam dunk plug and play guy, he runs an unorthodox offense, and that’s where I think the problem lies. It’s not that his offense requires Lamar Jackson to work, it’s that teams aren’t looking to run the ball 35 times a game in 2020. In an era where every owner seems to wanna see their team throwing for 4800 yards and having the QB be the face of the franchise, and with all the premiums being paid to corners and pass rushers and WRs, we are just in an NFL that is clamoring for a Greg Roman offense.

what we may be seeing is Roman bucking the trend. What we’ve done this year could literally be a change in philosophy league wide.
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You are right that it was a cleaning of the house in SF and Rex was looking for a scapegoat, but it was more than that. I have a friend who is a huge bills fan and he pointed out that he was afraid for his job and he didn't want to be fired and have Roman take over and succeed, especially knowing they had the top rush offense in the league the year before.
 
JoeyFlex5

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
RavensMania said:
You are right that it was a cleaning of the house in SF and Rex was looking for a scapegoat, but it was more than that. I have a friend who is a huge bills fan and he pointed out that he was afraid for his job and he didn't want to be fired and have Roman take over and succeed, especially knowing they had the top rush offense in the league the year before.
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Ouch, that’s a shitty attitude from Rex and quite frankly, as much as I love Rex, is not something I would doubt he would do
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
rmcjacket23 said:
1. Sure, I can buy the "less opportunities" aspect, but I also never thought it would be more than 6-7 to begin with, and we're at 5. The only other organization I actually expected would have an opening was Jacksonville, and again, I don't see how he fits in that well there. I don't think any other lack of firings were really that surprising.
2. Perhaps I am being a little unfair to Roman... but at the very least, a team hiring him to do something differently than what they've seen with either Kaepernick or Lamar is basically hiring him to do something they've never seen him do before, which in my opinion, is an extraordinary leap of faith.
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teams in the last few years have hired coaches with far less experience and far less pedigree - ultimately your success as a HC doesn't come down to your efficacy as a coordinator, it's ultimately down to your ability to lead and manage a team of coaches and players and all manner of other things while also putting a stamp on the team in terms of scheme etc.

now im not naive enough to think that teams actually worry so much about that stuff when hiring nowadays - im fully aware that a young offensive mind is more likely to have a punt taken on them than an older wisened DC

whenever a team hires any first time HC they're taking a risk so not sure why roman would be a bigger leap of faith than many of the other coaching candidates out there

and that's what interviews are for anyway - to evaluate whether he's a good fit there and vice versa - whether they and he think that he can transfer his offensive principles to a different set-up with different talent at various position
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
rmcjacket23 said:
No, I don't think its a foregone conclusion.

But I think if Colin Kaepernick never existed, Roman would have never even been considered as a HC candidate, given what he produced with SF and Alex Smith specifically.

My other sort of thought would be this... why isn't he still the OC in SF? Why isn't he still the OC in Buffalo? Heck, when we hired him, why didn't we hire him to be the OC?

Maybe you can chalk it up to turnover at HC in those spots, but its not like new HCs aren't looking to bring in quality OC's who can run a quality system, which is what Roman appears to be to me. If he can run the ball everywhere he goes, and get at least competent to above average QB play everywhere he goes, why isn't he in such high demand as an OC everywhere?

I'm not even trying to put the guy down. Obviously, he's incredibly important to what we're doing here. I'm just not buying that he's a "plug and play" stud at doing anything else well other than running the football well. Maybe there's teams interested in that, but there's also teams in this league that run the ball quite well that can't win anything.

In my opinion, Roman and Wink are the same guys. Styles that work in this league with the personnel they desire and mold, and are exceptionally good at what they do... game planning and making adjustments to their sides of the ball. I just don't think they're the kinds of guys who you want to run the full operation. You're giving them more responsibility in other areas, and taking them out of the details that make them so good at what they do.
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49ers cleaned house when Jim Harbaugh left - they started again and given the way that ownership went through GMs and HCs I think it's pretty clear why Roman wouldn't still be the OC in san francisco - he took a year out from football before the bills brought him straight back in as an OC (so clearly they thought he was a pretty good OC there)

in Buffalo he had piss-poor talent to use and still crafted one of the most efficient running games in the league with a bunch of scrubs, and tyrod taylor at qb on a bad team - and i really like tyrod but he's not a high-end starter - and Roman got fired in september of Rex Ryan's last season basically as a scapegoat after the 2nd game of the season in which the bills put up 31 points (but lost 37-31 to the jets) - in that game Tyrod Taylor thew 3 tds to 1 pick and the jets lost that game because matt forte scored 3 tds against the bills defence - while Anthony Lynn came in and absolutely crushed it as the OC in buffalo after Roman was fired it still made no sense why Roman was fired in that spot other than being a scapegoat

as for why he wasnt immediately hired as the OC here when he joined - we'd just had a OC change of our own that season and Harbs, who's at times frustratingly loyal to his assistants, decided to let Marty Mornhinweg continue after doing an apparently decent job in 2016 as the interim OC - by 2018 we'd given him the responsibility for the running game in the offence and by 2019 he was OC

as for whether he'd be a good HC - that's up in the air - he was the assistant head coach in 2018 for this ravens team but that's mostly a moniker and a way of giving senior guys more responsibility even if they're not coordinators - im not saying he'd be a slam-dunk im just arguing that to say out of hand that he's not a fit in any of these spots ignores 90% of the HC's actual job - and we don't know that they wouldnt be good at the other 10%
 
RavensMania

RavensMania

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So we now have 4 division titles in Harbaughs tenure. Both Flacco and LJ have two divisional titles to their name. Well Flacco has 2 1/2 and Lamar has 1 1/2.
 
UPennChem

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
There's an article in the sun saying Tony Jefferson tweeted or Instagram messaged someone, I can't remember which one, that he'd probably be a UDFA come next season. Seems like he knows his time is up.
 
UPennChem

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
Isn't it awesome that Zadarius is better than Bud Dupree. Not saying Dupree is bad, but those 2 both had the same set of experiences coming from Kentucky. Physically Dupree was the superior player and ended up a 1st round pick whereas we got ZDS in the 4th. Despite being the weaker prospect, our system got him to a monster second contract and a 3rd round comp. I think we're really doing some good work here as a football team top to bottom in coaching. Wink and GRo specifically have been so great relative to the likes of Pees and Marty. If only, if only we had still had Rossburg for this year!
 
JO_75

JO_75

Hall of Famer
We talk about the Browns being bad at finding head coaches and GMs. I was doing research for my show and I had to think for the amount of hires Cleveland has had, they have had to miss out on a big name coach who won a Super Bowl or had lots of success with another team. Turns out, the entire NFL(with the exception of the Pats) is pretty bad at scouting Head Coaches. When you see the list of the coaching hires and who was hired, you understand why certain teams have been terrible for so long.

In the 12 seasons Harbaugh has been here, he has survived mostly every Head Coaching hire since 2008, and that's 83 of them through the 2019 season. Only 17 Coaches remain with two plus seasons with the team that hired them. It's a long post so it's in spoiler tags....

17/83 = 20.48% Have Remained on the team who hired them

2008 Coaching Hires:
Falcons: Mike Smith (FIRED)
Dolphins: Tony Sparano (FIRED)
Redskins: Jim Zorn (FIRED)
Ravens: John Harbaugh

2009 Coaching Hires:
Browns: Eric Mangini (FIRED)
Broncos: Josh McDaniels (FIRED)
Lions: Jim Schwartz (FIRED)
Chiefs: Todd Haley (FIRED)
Colts: Jim Caldwell (FIRED)
Jets: Rex Ryan (FIRED)
Raiders: Tom Cable* (FIRED)
Rams: Steve Spagnuolo (FIRED)
49ers: Mike Singletary* (FIRED)
Seahawks: Jim Mora (FIRED)
Bucs: Raheem Morris (FIRED)

2010 Coaching Hires:
Bills: Chan Gailey (FIRED)
Redskins: Mike Shanahan (FIRED)
Seahawks: Pete Carroll

2011 Coaching Hires:
Cowboys: Jason Garrett* (FIRED)
Vikings: Leslie Fraizer* (FIRED)
Broncos: John Fox (FIRED)
49ers: Jim Harbaugh (FIRED)
Panthers: Ron Rivera (FIRED, Hired as Redskins Head Coach January 2020)
Browns: Pat Shurmur (FIRED)
Raiders: Hue Jackson (FIRED)
Titans: Mike Munchak (FIRED)


2012 Coaching Hires:
Jaguars: Mike Mularkey (FIRED)
Chiefs: Romeo Crennel (FIRED)
Dolphins: Joe Philbin (FIRED)
Rams: Jeff Fisher (FIRED)
Bucs: Greg Schiano (FIRED)
Raiders: Dennis Allen (FIRED)
Colts: Chuck Pagano (FIRED)

2013 Coaching Hires:
Cardinals: Bruce Arians (FIRST RETIREMENT)
Bills: Doug Marrone (FIRED)
Bears: Marc Trestman (FIRED)
Browns: Rob Chudzinski (FIRED)
Jaguars: Gus Bradley (FIRED)
Chiefs: Andy Reid
Eagles: Chip Kelly (FIRED)
Chargers: Mike McCoy (FIRED)

2014 Coaching Hires:
Texans: Bill O'Brien
Browns: Mike Pettine (FIRED)
Lions: Jim Caldwell (FIRED)
Vikings: Mike Zimmer
Bucs: Lovie Smith (FIRED)
Titans: Ken Whisenhunt (FIRED)
Redskins: Jay Gruden (FIRED)

2015 Coaching Hires:
Falcons: Dan Quinn
Bills: Rex Ryan (FIRED)
Bears: John Fox (FIRED)
Broncos: Gary Kubiak (FIRED)
Jets: Todd Bowles (FIRED)
Raiders: Jack Del Rio (FIRED)
49ers: Jim Tomsula (FIRED)

2016 Coaching Hires:
Browns: Hue Jackson (FIRED)
Dolphins: Adam Gase (FIRED)
Eagles: Doug Pederson
49ers: Chip Kelly (FIRED)
Bucs: Dirk Koetter (FIRED)
Titans: Mike Mularkey (FIRED)
Giants: Ben McAdoo (FIRED)

2017 Coaching Hires:
Bills: Sean McDermott
Broncos: Vance Joseph (FIRED)
Jaguars: Doug Marrone
Chargers: Anthony Lynn
Rams: Sean McVay
49ers: Kyle Shanahan

2018 Coaching Hires:
Cardinals: Steve Wilks (FIRED)
Bears: Matt Nagy
Lions: Matt Patricia
Colts: Frank Reich
Giants: Pat Shurmur (FIRED)
Raiders: Jon Gruden
Titans: Mike Vrabel

2019 Coaching Hires:
Cardinals: Kliff Kingsbury
Bengals: Zac Taylor
Browns: Freddie Kitchens
Broncos: Vic Fangio
Packers: Matt LaFleur
Dolphins: Brian Flores
Jets: Adam Gase
Bucs: Bruce Arians

Head Coaches Who Remain on their current team (2+ Years of Coaching Same Team):
- John Harbaugh (Ravens)
- Pete Carroll (Seahawks)
- Doug Pederson (Eagles)
- Andy Reid (Chiefs)
- Bill O'Brien (Texans)
- Mike Zimmer (Vikings)
- Dan Quinn (Falcons)
- Sean McDermott (Bills)
- Doug Marrone (Jaguars)
- Anthony Lynn (Chargers)
- Sean McVay (Rams)
- Kyle Shanahan (49ers)
- Matt Nagy (Bears)
- Matt Patricia (Lions)
- Frank Reich (Colts)
- Jon Gruden (Raiders)
- Mike Vrabel (Titans)

* = Interim Then Permanent Bold = Won Super Bowl
 
I

Ice Bowl

MVP
I got a new phone. Thank God I remembered the password for this site otherwise I would have been locked out. My old phone took a dump on me.
 
Ravensnation5220

Ravensnation5220

Ravens Ring of Honor
JoeyFlex5 said:
I hope the hell not.

I do NOT believe in taking the ball out of your best players hands for the sake of trickery, scheme, or anything of that nature.

if Lamar gets a philly special, that means someone else is holding the ball, someone far less dangerous and skilled, someone who is likely far less poised to deliver than Lamar. I’ll take 4 consecutive plays with Lamar taking the snap and running our regular playbook before I’d take a single snap of him running a route.

also, Lamar is getting attention there, nobody in their right mind would make nick foles a sole reason on a pass play which is why it worked, half the goddamn teams in the league wanted Lamar to play WR less than 2 years ago so as this play forms there’s likely still a spy on Lamar.
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Ya and if we know Harbaugh. Its gonna be a special teams trick play if anything. I just hope whatever he comes up with...it works
 
rmcjacket23

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
RavensMania said:
we aren't even at five. There were four from the start and the Skins have already hired Rivera. The Cowboys don't have an opening yet.
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rossihunter2 said:
teams in the last few years have hired coaches with far less experience and far less pedigree - ultimately your success as a HC doesn't come down to your efficacy as a coordinator, it's ultimately down to your ability to lead and manage a team of coaches and players and all manner of other things while also putting a stamp on the team in terms of scheme etc.

now im not naive enough to think that teams actually worry so much about that stuff when hiring nowadays - im fully aware that a young offensive mind is more likely to have a punt taken on them than an older wisened DC

whenever a team hires any first time HC they're taking a risk so not sure why roman would be a bigger leap of faith than many of the other coaching candidates out there

and that's what interviews are for anyway - to evaluate whether he's a good fit there and vice versa - whether they and he think that he can transfer his offensive principles to a different set-up with different talent at various position
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Sure, but the guys they've hired are typically viewed as "QB guru's" who they bring in to transform an existing or future franchise QB into something special. Zac Taylor, Sean McVay, Kliff Kingsbury, etc.

I agree with JoeyFlex's sentiment... a team bringing him in is going to have to have a desire in 2020 to run the ball and run it a lot. They have to want to build their offense that way, which does, typically, go counter-intuitive to how teams in the modern NFL want to play offense. That's not to say it can't be done, because teams like SF and BAL have clearly shown everybody how you can run the ball, play good defense, and win in this league. But I think teams are much more enamored with the KC Chiefs style of offense than the Greg Roman style of offense.
 
RavensMania

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
rmcjacket23 said:
Sure, but the guys they've hired are typically viewed as "QB guru's" who they bring in to transform an existing or future franchise QB into something special. Zac Taylor, Sean McVay, Kliff Kingsbury, etc.

I agree with JoeyFlex's sentiment... a team bringing him in is going to have to have a desire in 2020 to run the ball and run it a lot. They have to want to build their offense that way, which does, typically, go counter-intuitive to how teams in the modern NFL want to play offense. That's not to say it can't be done, because teams like SF and BAL have clearly shown everybody how you can run the ball, play good defense, and win in this league. But I think teams are much more enamored with the KC Chiefs style of offense than the Greg Roman style of offense.
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Sean McVay was never considered a quarterback guru, but he did turn everything to gold that he touched in Washington. He had a rough year this year, but I certainly expect a bounce back next season. Zac Taylor was hired because he had worked with Sean McVay and Kyle Shanahan and for that matter so did LaFleur. I'd also agree with your statement that teams are more enamored with the Chiefs style of offense than Roman's style of offense.
 
JoeyFlex5

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
rmcjacket23 said:
Sure, but the guys they've hired are typically viewed as "QB guru's" who they bring in to transform an existing or future franchise QB into something special. Zac Taylor, Sean McVay, Kliff Kingsbury, etc.

I agree with JoeyFlex's sentiment... a team bringing him in is going to have to have a desire in 2020 to run the ball and run it a lot. They have to want to build their offense that way, which does, typically, go counter-intuitive to how teams in the modern NFL want to play offense. That's not to say it can't be done, because teams like SF and BAL have clearly shown everybody how you can run the ball, play good defense, and win in this league. But I think teams are much more enamored with the KC Chiefs style of offense than the Greg Roman style of offense.
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I think what gets lost in this idea of trying to find the next Sean Mcvay, is that mcvay is far from a qb guru and isn’t some explosive offensive mastermind, his scheme is a power running scheme first and foremost, the big difference between Roman and mcvays offense other than designed qb runs, is that mcvay emphasizes WRs far more than the TEs, and the blocking schemes are more traditional.

mcvays offense sputtered this year for one reason, the decline of gurley, gurley being on the field every down, running, catching, and taking play fakes on every single snap, is what made it work. That’s why the likes of kingsbury May do alright, but aren’t setting the league on fire like mcvay did. It’s a huge philosophical difference, and Roman is actually a lot closer to mcvay than mcvay is to, say an Andy Reid or kliff kingsbury.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
JoeyFlex5 said:
I think what gets lost in this idea of trying to find the next Sean Mcvay, is that mcvay is far from a qb guru and isn’t some explosive offensive mastermind, his scheme is a power running scheme first and foremost, the big difference between Roman and mcvays offense other than designed qb runs, is that mcvay emphasizes WRs far more than the TEs, and the blocking schemes are more traditional.

mcvays offense sputtered this year for one reason, the decline of gurley, gurley being on the field every down, running, catching, and taking play fakes on every single snap, is what made it work. That’s why the likes of kingsbury May do alright, but aren’t setting the league on fire like mcvay did. It’s a huge philosophical difference, and Roman is actually a lot closer to mcvay than mcvay is to, say an Andy Reid or kliff kingsbury.
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everyone should be looking for the next shanahan not mcvay - shanahan is a coordinator who realises you have to create balance and it can help your quarterback a great deal to create a strong running game - he uses motions in an interesting way to manipulate defenders and (like roman) uses a fb and lots of blocking from his receivers to spring the running game which sets up that passing game

now the way roman actually has gone about scheming the running game is different to how shanahan's done it but philosophically the way they attack defences is similar
 
RavensMania

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
JoeyFlex5 said:
I think what gets lost in this idea of trying to find the next Sean Mcvay, is that mcvay is far from a qb guru and isn’t some explosive offensive mastermind, his scheme is a power running scheme first and foremost, the big difference between Roman and mcvays offense other than designed qb runs, is that mcvay emphasizes WRs far more than the TEs, and the blocking schemes are more traditional.

mcvays offense sputtered this year for one reason, the decline of gurley, gurley being on the field every down, running, catching, and taking play fakes on every single snap, is what made it work. That’s why the likes of kingsbury May do alright, but aren’t setting the league on fire like mcvay did. It’s a huge philosophical difference, and Roman is actually a lot closer to mcvay than mcvay is to, say an Andy Reid or kliff kingsbury.
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in addition to what you just said, people trying to get the next McVay by finding someone who "touched him" is also ridiculous, because genius isn't taught. Same idea with BB, the only coach with some degree of success from his tree has been Bill O'Brien and I wouldn't say he's taking the league by storm.
 
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