The Random Thought Thread

[rossihunter2]

I’ll be livid if we let Ronnie walk or even trade him. I hope he’s a Raven for life.

that just doesnt seem likely - tunsil's being paid that much and Ronnie by all accounts has been better than him every single season since they were both drafted - if we didnt give him the deal then who's playing tackle for us?

we just lost the other of the 2 best OL on our OL in Yanda - we cant afford to lose Ronnie too - the 2 guys who consistently separated themselves from the rest of the league's offerings at their respective positions

seems far-fetched to me that we'd let him leave just to not pay him Tunsil money especially as we'd only get a 3rd round pick back for him

 

[rossihunter2]

We have to take deep shots even though we’re bad at passing deep? That doesn’t make any sense. 31st in passing yards through 4 games is awful. Sure

Please watch the all-22 tape on Queen and get back to me. Same on Tyre Phillips. Just because they’re starting doesn’t mean they’re playing well

I have watched the all-22 on both of those guys in all 4 games so far...
ummm what? Tyre Phillips has got better in every single game so far - the learning curve has been steep but he's already corrected mistakes he was making in week 1 and 2 regarding his base and footwork in pass protection

Patrick Queen just had his best game as a raven so far - he's still not there in coverage but what are you going to expect on a complex communication driven defence when you've lost almost the entire offseason - he's also improving but making consistent impact plays

JK Dobbins is already operating as the primary back on passing downs for the ravens - he's had disappointingly few carries but has led the ravens RB room in snaps so far this year and has flashed a couple of times his playmaking ability

Malik Harrison im a little disappointed to see has had his snap count significantly reduced from week 1 where i thought he played pretty damn well against the browns's lethal rushing attack - violently knocked over OL when he came downhill and had a nice PD in coverage

Devin Duvernay has been a threat on kick returns and has already housed one, he's been used sparingly on offence but normally in the scripted portion at the beginning of the game - this washington game was the first time he saw any real time outside of those scripted plays which is nice to see - hopefully he gets more involved - on one of the hollywood brown catches duvernay was absolutely flying down the seam for what could have been a house call if lamar had wanted to go in that direction - his speed is as advertised - if anything he somehow looks even faster than hollywood which is unexpected for me - he's not a great route runner and wasnt in college so he was always going to take time to develop but manufacturing snaps for him is going to yield positive results because of how good he is after the catch

Justin Madubuike hasnt played yet but he was my favourite draft pick of the entire class

Ben Bredeson is going to ride the bench all year

Broderick Washington has already exceeded expectations just by playing any snaps at all - he's looked unspectacular but at times flashed great power and strength at the LoS to blow up some running plays - doesn't offer anything on passing downs but that's not unexpected given where he was drafted

James Proche is the starting punt returner - he just got his first snap on offence with Lamar at QB against Washington - we shall have to wait and see if he gets more involved like it seems Duvernay is going to be

Geno Stone disappointingly cant seem to get himself activated by getting on special teams - if he doesnt carve a role on special teams then he's unlikely to last long here as a late day 3 safety in the mould of deshon and chuck before him

general adage is that if you find 3 starters out of a draft class it's a success - we've already through week 4 got 2 starters out of this class and the potential for more so hard to be disappointed by that

 

[rossihunter2]

I certainly don't think it looks "bad". That's not accurate.

Queen's been pretty good. Duvernay has made some explosive plays, and Dobbins and Phillips are coming along.

That being said, there's a couple things I'd point out:
1. Madubuike has been hurt. Can't judge his performance when he's not available to play. But can't call it a good or even average pick when he's not contributing.
2. Obviously Bredeson, Washington, Proche and Stone have made minimal contributions. They're not playing much, if at all, and aren't making any real impact when they are.

So through a whopping 4 games (a laughably small sample size), you've basically got two starters who are playing well (Queen and Phillips), a trio of situational role players (Dobbins, Duvernay, Harrison), and then about five other guys who are making very little or no impact.

That's not a bad class, but its not a world-beating class either. To be blunt, I had higher expectations for Dobbins, Duvernay, and Harrison early on. Those guys aren't competing with world-beaters for playing time, and I would have expected them to seize more significant roles in their units by this point. Now, lack of a more aggressive preseason probably hurt their causes, but the jury's still out on their long term impact.

Certainly not a bad class by any stretch though.

im with you on dobbins and harrison - i really loved harrison as a prospect but his snap count is going in the wrong direction week-by-week, dobbins i was hoping would have more carries - he's leading all backs in snaps and is playing on the majority of passing downs but that's supplementary to his actual strengths as a runner but he's not getting carries yet - disappointed in his usage more than his play

duvernay i dont really agree with - i had fairly low expectations for him - he was a raw route runner in college with a simple route tree and not much nuance involved - he had a good feel for timing in zones and finding soft spots but against man relied a lot on his pure athleticism so i always assumed that would take some time to translate to the pros - i assumed his usage would be pretty similar to what it is right now - some early scripted plays and some manufactured touches to get the ball in his hands and see him create after the catch

Madubuike obviously hasnt done anything for us yet because of that injury but he was my favourite of our draft picks this year by a country mile so im most excited about him and his potential moving forwards

 

[Deebo813]

In 2019 Lamar was better than anyone in this conversation, to put Rodgers over him in 2019 is putting the past over the present and future.

No because aaron rodgers was still good lol media made it out to be like he was falling off when if you watched you can clearly see that he still has everything. If you make a list of the best qbs of the season and have lamar 1 cool,but every overall qb
list ive seen had aaron rodgers outside of 5 dam near..Like people had more faith in brady than rodgers when brady has clearly showed signs of regression when arod showed none other than an offense we arent used to seeing

 

[rossihunter2]

As always, I think it'll come down to price.

I would pay him, but I guess its not outside the realm of possibility. I suspect one could argue that having dominant Oline play isn't nearly as important for a mobile QB who can move the pocket and avoid the rush as well as Lamar can. Russell Wilson has made a fine living doing that, though he's a lot better at it than Lamar.

If it were me, I'd pay him. Because I don't see anybody else more worthy than him. I'd be super pissed if they let Stanley walk but then gave like $15-18M to Orlando Brown. I'm not paying Judon instead of Stanley, and Lamar is still probably 2-3 years away from needing a lucrative extension. Paying Andrews really won't even be that expensive in the grand scheme of things. He's not going to command Kittle-money I don't think.

And you essentially have nobody on defense in need of a long term deal at this point.

100% this - if we dont pay ronnie then who are we gonna pay?

and thinking about the mobile QB thing is interesting but id say so far this year for both lamar and russ has shown that a mobile qb mitigating is not that big of a deal - lamar without the OL he had last year has made some poorer decisions in the pocket this year at a higher frequency than last year because he seems to be bailing or getting spooked quicker

conversely russ has the best OL of his career and is scoring TDs at a 2013 Peyton Manning rate unleashing one of the most dangerous looking passing offences ive seen (just happens to exist at the same time as the chiefs offence)

look at what terrible OL play has done to deshaun watson too...

i think there can be very little doubt about how important OL is

 

[rmcjacket23]

im with you on dobbins and harrison - i really loved harrison as a prospect but his snap count is going in the wrong direction week-by-week, dobbins i was hoping would have more carries - he's leading all backs in snaps and is playing on the majority of passing downs but that's supplementary to his actual strengths as a runner but he's not getting carries yet - disappointed in his usage more than his play

duvernay i dont really agree with - i had fairly low expectations for him - he was a raw route runner in college with a simple route tree and not much nuance involved - he had a good feel for timing in zones and finding soft spots but against man relied a lot on his pure athleticism so i always assumed that would take some time to translate to the pros - i assumed his usage would be pretty similar to what it is right now - some early scripted plays and some manufactured touches to get the ball in his hands and see him create after the catch

Madubuike obviously hasnt done anything for us yet because of that injury but he was my favourite of our draft picks this year by a country mile so im most excited about him and his potential moving forwards

For me, part of it just comes down to competition... who are these guys competing with for snaps?

I had an idea that Dobbins would be in a timeshare, and so that isn't that bad. Though I really thought by like mid-season it would be blatantly obvious he was better than the other two backs, kind of how the Ravens quickly realized Ray Rice was special. I can't say that I've seen that so far, though he's shown better than Ingram.

Harrison is, among others, competing with LJ Fort. The personification of the word "journeyman". He's been outplayed by him by a wide margin so far. Not saying that's horrible, but I just expected differently.

Duvernay is interesting. I understand he's more "raw", but again, who's the competition? He's well, well, well behind both Snead and Boykin in snap count. Now those guys are key blockers in our scheme, and I don't have numbers on route's run, but I would guess he's behind both on routes run also, which means it's not just a product of wanting run-blocking receivers out there.

Maybe its a product of Roman not scheming ways for him on the field, but this is where I usually give my "good teams generally find ways to get their best players on the field" speech.

 

[rmcjacket23]

No because aaron rodgers was still good lol media made it out to be like he was falling off when if you watched you can clearly see that he still has everything. If you make a list of the best qbs of the season and have lamar 1 cool,but every overall qb
list ive seen had aaron rodgers outside of 5 dam near..Like people had more faith in brady than rodgers when brady has clearly showed signs of regression when arod showed none other than an offense we arent used to seeing

What signs did Brady show that Rodgers didn't?

Arm strength is about it. Rodgers had regressed in pocket awareness, decision making, doesn't nearly make as many plays outside the pocket, and I don't think he read's defenses nearly as well as he did in his prime.

I don't think one can justify the "Brady has regressed" theory and Rodgers is just a product of "bad coaching and bad players". They both have very minimal talent around them for multiple years now.

 

[rossihunter2]

No because aaron rodgers was still good lol media made it out to be like he was falling off when if you watched you can clearly see that he still has everything. If you make a list of the best qbs of the season and have lamar 1 cool,but every overall qb
list ive seen had aaron rodgers outside of 5 dam near..Like people had more faith in brady than rodgers when brady has clearly showed signs of regression when arod showed none other than an offense we arent used to seeing

its not just about tools though - the last few years before this Brady's arm might have been getting weaker but he was reading the field at the same high level he always had up until the 2019 season when he had no weapons around him - he's been very effective down the field this year but has been less careful with the football

aaron rodgers on the other hand never lost his physical tools but his decision-making for the last 2-3 years had been not good (to be polite)

 

[Deebo813]

Rodgers didn't just have one season of mediocrity. Its been a few years. Here's how he ranked:
2019: 21st in completion %, 14th in TD%, 17th in YPA, 12th in QB rating, 18th in QBR.
2018: 26th in completion %, 22nd in TD%, 17th in YPA, 13th in QB rating, 20th in QBR.
2017: 8th in completion %, 2nd in TD%, 17th in YPA, 8th in QB rating, 10th in QBR
2016: 4th in completion %, 2nd in TD%, 13th in YPA, 4th in QB rating, 4th in QBR

The only metric where he continues to be elite is with turnovers, where he very rarely throws interceptions.

He was an elite QB in 2016, he was a top 10 QB in 2017, and he fell off a cliff the last two seasons. You'd be hard pressed to find a metric, beyond turnovers, where he was even in a "good" category. His completion %s are atrocious for a modern NFL QB, he has consistently been a guy who hasn't thrown the ball down the field at all for several years now. And while I think stats like QB rating or QBR are largely irrelevant, there's plenty of metrics that will show this.

Its not a lifetime achievement award. He wasn't viewed as a top 3 or even top 10 QB the last couple years because literally nothing he did on the football field was indicative of a top 3 or top 10 QB. Yes, the offense sucked. He also plays on that offense, and he wasn't any good either. He's been playing with a bunch of nobodies for a few years now, and now all of the sudden he has studs around him? I don't think so.

Bro forget those stats.. thats the exact reason why people got it wrong lol. Have you seen him play? He still makes every throw. Offensive weapons just havent been good but he still looks good..if you dnt believe arod has been an elite qb all those yrs than idk what to tell you lol. There is nothing i can say lol. Like people really had packers not making the playoffs..Then again, experts dont really believe half the stuff they say and numbers dont show the whole picture so i dnt blame most

 

[Deebo813]

What signs did Brady show that Rodgers didn't?

Arm strength is about it. Rodgers had regressed in pocket awareness, decision making, doesn't nearly make as many plays outside the pocket, and I don't think he read's defenses nearly as well as he did in his prime.

I don't think one can justify the "Brady has regressed" theory and Rodgers is just a product of "bad coaching and bad players". They both have very minimal talent around them for multiple years now.

Except brady had BB mcdaniels, literally the best OC ever and best HC ever. Have you seen brady decision making last few yrs? Its a reason why he has been throwing so many pick sixes.

 

[rossihunter2]

For me, part of it just comes down to competition... who are these guys competing with for snaps?

I had an idea that Dobbins would be in a timeshare, and so that isn't that bad. Though I really thought by like mid-season it would be blatantly obvious he was better than the other two backs, kind of how the Ravens quickly realized Ray Rice was special. I can't say that I've seen that so far, though he's shown better than Ingram.

Harrison is, among others, competing with LJ Fort. The personification of the word "journeyman". He's been outplayed by him by a wide margin so far. Not saying that's horrible, but I just expected differently.

Duvernay is interesting. I understand he's more "raw", but again, who's the competition? He's well, well, well behind both Snead and Boykin in snap count. Now those guys are key blockers in our scheme, and I don't have numbers on route's run, but I would guess he's behind both on routes run also, which means it's not just a product of wanting run-blocking receivers out there.

Maybe its a product of Roman not scheming ways for him on the field, but this is where I usually give my "good teams generally find ways to get their best players on the field" speech.

duvernay's snap counts have been interesting because until this week they've hardly given him any snaps and most of his snaps (with lamar) have been early in the game (most likely part of the scripted plays at the beginning of the game) or in longer drives later in the game

against washington he played far more frequently and i'm pretty sure those snaps he was taking were coming from willie snead who had his lowest snap percentage this season

when he and proche were drafted there was always going to be some intrigue as to how the snaps would be divvied up given the fact that 3 of our 6 WRs were now ostensibly slot WRs and that didnt even include Hollywood who's also effective in the slot

so while the corps we have isnt world-beating competition it is log-jammed at the slot with lots of players who have roles in this offence

the next 2 or 3 weeks will be telling for duvernay's role moving forwards

 

[rossihunter2]

Bro forget those stats.. thats the exact reason why people got it wrong lol. Have you seen him play? He still makes every throw. Offensive weapons just havent been good but he still looks good..if you dnt believe arod has been an elite qb all those yrs than idk what to tell you lol. There is nothing i can say lol. Like people really had packers not making the playoffs..Then again, experts dont really believe half the stuff they say and numbers dont show the whole picture so i dnt blame most

the problem is he wasnt playing well - anyone could see it watching him especially in 2018 and 2019 he was making poor decisions

 

[Deebo813]

its not just about tools though - the last few years before this Brady's arm might have been getting weaker but he was reading the field at the same high level he always had up until the 2019 season when he had no weapons around him - he's been very effective down the field this year but has been less careful with the football

aaron rodgers on the other hand never lost his physical tools but his decision-making for the last 2-3 years had been not good (to be polite)

Rodgers decision making has always been good from what ive seen. Only thing i saw that was different was him throwing ball away more than usual. Also has been taking more sacks because he cant move like his old self

 

[Deebo813]

For me, part of it just comes down to competition... who are these guys competing with for snaps?

I had an idea that Dobbins would be in a timeshare, and so that isn't that bad. Though I really thought by like mid-season it would be blatantly obvious he was better than the other two backs, kind of how the Ravens quickly realized Ray Rice was special. I can't say that I've seen that so far, though he's shown better than Ingram.

Harrison is, among others, competing with LJ Fort. The personification of the word "journeyman". He's been outplayed by him by a wide margin so far. Not saying that's horrible, but I just expected differently.

Duvernay is interesting. I understand he's more "raw", but again, who's the competition? He's well, well, well behind both Snead and Boykin in snap count. Now those guys are key blockers in our scheme, and I don't have numbers on route's run, but I would guess he's behind both on routes run also, which means it's not just a product of wanting run-blocking receivers out there.

Maybe its a product of Roman not scheming ways for him on the field, but this is where I usually give my "good teams generally find ways to get their best players on the field" speech.

You think dobbins has looked better than ingram? Maybe one game ingram looked bad bunt dobbins has shown nothing at all in the run game. Sure ingram doesnt have break away speed but i count on him to hit the hole more than i would with dobbins.

 

[rossihunter2]

Rodgers decision making has always been good from what ive seen. Only thing i saw that was different was him throwing ball away more than usual. Also has been taking more sacks because he cant move like his old self

there was lots of throwing away because he was often going/waiting for big plays that werent there rather than taking the easier more successful play that was available to him - the sacks were not just about movement skills but about bad decisions where he wanted to hold the ball too long to make a play that wasnt there, same with the throwaways

the introduction of Matt LaFleur has been really good for him - they didnt gel well in 2019 but they both seem to be having a lot of fun this year and it looks like they've meshed and understand each other better - Rodgers is notably taking fewer crazy deep shots so his air yards per attempt have come down slightly but his air yards per completion have gone up

looking at the adjusted stats its very telling that from the 2015 season until this season he'd been about average or below average in all these statistical categories: yards per attempt, adjusted yards per attempt, completion percentage, td percentage (albeit that was only average going back to 2017), sacks, passer rating

as @rmcjacket23 said earlier - the only category where he has remained consistently great has been in ball security with his INTs where he had 1 slight below average blip in 2017 but otherwise has been spectacularly efficient

the stats arent replacing my eyes they're just helping contextualise what it is we were all seeing

he wasnt falling off but he was making poor decisions

 

[rossihunter2]

You think dobbins has looked better than ingram? Maybe one game ingram looked bad bunt dobbins has shown nothing at all in the run game. Sure ingram doesnt have break away speed but i count on him to hit the hole more than i would with dobbins.

dobbins just hasnt had many running plays - he's played more snaps than both ingram and edwards but he hasnt been in the spotlight because its mostly been on passing downs and he hasnt dominated targets really and the game where he out-performed everyone else just happened to coincide with the big loss of the year where everyone feels tainted but Dobbins led the ravens in receiving yards and receptions against the Chiefs albeit i would have liked to see more YAC in those situations than he got (he'll get better as his route running gets better)

 

[rmcjacket23]

Bro forget those stats.. thats the exact reason why people got it wrong lol. Have you seen him play? He still makes every throw. Offensive weapons just havent been good but he still looks good..if you dnt believe arod has been an elite qb all those yrs than idk what to tell you lol. There is nothing i can say lol. Like people really had packers not making the playoffs..Then again, experts dont really believe half the stuff they say and numbers dont show the whole picture so i dnt blame most

You lost me at "I don't know what to say". There's a reason I mock people when they talk about the "eye test". Its because most people are blind and don't know what they're looking at to begin with.

This is a good case of that.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Except brady had BB mcdaniels, literally the best OC ever and best HC ever. Have you seen brady decision making last few yrs? Its a reason why he has been throwing so many pick sixes.

1. Belichick is largely a defensive coach.
2. You are the first, only, and last person to ever suggest that Josh McDaniels is the best OC ever. Not even Belichick or McDaniels himself thinks he's the best OC ever.

I think I'm now realizing that you're just trolling. Like 50 year old drunks at Applebees wearing their varsity jackets aren't even this dumb...

 

[rmcjacket23]

You think dobbins has looked better than ingram? Maybe one game ingram looked bad bunt dobbins has shown nothing at all in the run game. Sure ingram doesnt have break away speed but i count on him to hit the hole more than i would with dobbins.

What's that based on? Does Dobbins have some extensive track record of fumbles? You do realize Ingram has fumbled at least twice every season for the last 6 years? Volume plays a factor, but he hasn't really been that high of a volume runner in several years either.

Dobbins has more explosive plays AND actually contributes in the passing game, which Ingram doesn't. At this point, Ingram's best attributes are pass protection and veteran leadership. Even Gus Edwards is running laps around Ingram's production through 4 games.

 

[Justdewinit20]

I have watched the all-22 on both of those guys in all 4 games so far...
ummm what? Tyre Phillips has got better in every single game so far - the learning curve has been steep but he's already corrected mistakes he was making in week 1 and 2 regarding his base and footwork in pass protection

Patrick Queen just had his best game as a raven so far - he's still not there in coverage but what are you going to expect on a complex communication driven defence when you've lost almost the entire offseason - he's also improving but making consistent impact plays

JK Dobbins is already operating as the primary back on passing downs for the ravens - he's had disappointingly few carries but has led the ravens RB room in snaps so far this year and has flashed a couple of times his playmaking ability

Malik Harrison im a little disappointed to see has had his snap count significantly reduced from week 1 where i thought he played pretty damn well against the browns's lethal rushing attack - violently knocked over OL when he came downhill and had a nice PD in coverage

Devin Duvernay has been a threat on kick returns and has already housed one, he's been used sparingly on offence but normally in the scripted portion at the beginning of the game - this washington game was the first time he saw any real time outside of those scripted plays which is nice to see - hopefully he gets more involved - on one of the hollywood brown catches duvernay was absolutely flying down the seam for what could have been a house call if lamar had wanted to go in that direction - his speed is as advertised - if anything he somehow looks even faster than hollywood which is unexpected for me - he's not a great route runner and wasnt in college so he was always going to take time to develop but manufacturing snaps for him is going to yield positive results because of how good he is after the catch

Justin Madubuike hasnt played yet but he was my favourite draft pick of the entire class

Ben Bredeson is going to ride the bench all year

Broderick Washington has already exceeded expectations just by playing any snaps at all - he's looked unspectacular but at times flashed great power and strength at the LoS to blow up some running plays - doesn't offer anything on passing downs but that's not unexpected given where he was drafted

James Proche is the starting punt returner - he just got his first snap on offence with Lamar at QB against Washington - we shall have to wait and see if he gets more involved like it seems Duvernay is going to be

Geno Stone disappointingly cant seem to get himself activated by getting on special teams - if he doesnt carve a role on special teams then he's unlikely to last long here as a late day 3 safety in the mould of deshon and chuck before him

general adage is that if you find 3 starters out of a draft class it's a success - we've already through week 4 got 2 starters out of this class and the potential for more so hard to be disappointed by that

Again just because they are starting doesn’t mean they’re good players we just don’t have players that are better than them on the roster. Queen has been downright awful in coverage. Tyree seems like a reach in the 3rd round right now especially when guys like Damien Lewis and Michael Onwenu have been playing extremely well over the first 4 games. This board is full of Raven homers who just can’t admit that this players are playing bad RIGHT NOW. I’m not saying they can’t get better, but through the first 4 weeks they have not been good.