The Random Thought Thread

[rmcjacket23]

Exactly. There's a difference between realizing you have an inferior team and just rolling with that (e.g. Colts with Curtis Painter) vs. having an opportunity to win and blatantly throwing it away in the middle of a game.

Right, but the difference is purely organizational.

Having an inferior team is a product of management not wanting to put a better team out there. Does anybody really think the Jags did as much as they could to put the best group of players around they could find? They went out of their way to NOT spend $25M more on players. They were given every opportunity to do so, and the organization simply said "no thank you".

Both are tanking. The only difference is whether its a coach that's tanking vs organizational leadership that's tanking.

The sooner fans understand and resolve themselves to the fact that this stuff happens routinely, the better informed they'll be.

 

[rmcjacket23]

it's the fact that the NFL flexed this game into SNF too

So they probably made a mistake then. I said last week the league drew the short-straw. As many "up for grab" spots as there were, none really had a singular game they could hang their hat on.

I said they should have put Cardinals/Rams or Packers/Bears out there. Much higher profiles, much better players.

The problem is they can't know whether those games are relevant until another is over. The only game that was unique from all other games was WFT/Phi.

And because of that, you have to book your "premier" game to include a) a bad team who's already been eliminated from contention and has zero motivation to win and b) another bad team who may not have their starting QB, and c) two extremely boring teams to watch.

This is the result.

 

[rmcjacket23]

It's not even about the Giants. It's the pure integrity of the game, and the obvious tank job in the middle of it. The players knew what was going on and you could see the disappointment and anger on their faces on the sideline. It's one thing if you're down by 2 scores and want to throw in the towel, but they were down 3 points in a very winnable game and Pederson threw it. Players don't care about the draft position - they want to win. I couldn't show back up in that locker room and play for that man in good conscience.

If I'm a lot of those players, I can't show back up in that locker room because I didn't give max effort for the previous 15 games either.

Philly's issue hasn't really been talent. Its been discipline and lack of effort. That's a coaching issue, but it's also certainly a personnel issue.

You don't go 4-12 or whatever they finished at because you're trying hard. It would seem to be hypocritical of said players to criticize coaching for throwing in the towel with 1 quarter left. Some of these guys threw in the towel on their own effort weeks ago.

 

[rossihunter2]

So they probably made a mistake then. I said last week the league drew the short-straw. As many "up for grab" spots as there were, none really had a singular game they could hang their hat on.

I said they should have put Cardinals/Rams or Packers/Bears out there. Much higher profiles, much better players.

The problem is they can't know whether those games are relevant until another is over. The only game that was unique from all other games was WFT/Phi.

And because of that, you have to book your "premier" game to include a) a bad team who's already been eliminated from contention and has zero motivation to win and b) another bad team who may not have their starting QB, and c) two extremely boring teams to watch.

This is the result.

they've had years where they had no SNF and this felt like a year where they should have considered it lol
or maybe not - they probably still got high ratings on it

 

[rossihunter2]

If I'm a lot of those players, I can't show back up in that locker room because I didn't give max effort for the previous 15 games either.

Philly's issue hasn't really been talent. Its been discipline and lack of effort. That's a coaching issue, but it's also certainly a personnel issue.

You don't go 4-12 or whatever they finished at because you're trying hard. It would seem to be hypocritical of said players to criticize coaching for throwing in the towel with 1 quarter left. Some of these guys threw in the towel on their own effort weeks ago.

that seems unfair and untrue - just because players havent played well doesnt mean they're not trying...

you telling me the jets and jags players arent trying (when it's very clear and obvious they are) and those teams won less than half as many games as the eagles...

teams are allowed to suck - that doesnt mean the players arent trying

 

[rmcjacket23]

that seems unfair and untrue - just because players havent played well doesnt mean they're not trying...

you telling me the jets and jags players arent trying (when it's very clear and obvious they are) and those teams won less than half as many games as the eagles...

teams are allowed to suck - that doesnt mean the players arent trying

The lack of effort was specific to Philly. They've been criticized publicly on ESPN and other media outlets, with analysts blasting their effort, on film, for a few weeks now. Especially in the middle of the season when Wentz was playing.

I'm not suggesting Jacksonville or the Jets aren't trying. They're giving at least good effort every week. Their organization just seemingly intentionally didn't sign all the players they could to make their team the best it could possibly be.

Dallas is in the same boat as Philly. Lack of effort was a major thing for them mid-season. Troy Aikman took them out to the woodshed, especially on defense, in our primetime game with them. He showed the film where players weren't even attempting tackles, or jogging after plays they could have caught up to.

I don't think anybody thinks Philly or Dallas are losing a lot of games because of bad personnel, or organizations who are going out of their way to not put good players out there. Its a completely different reason for losing. And a lot of that reason is poor effort.

My point is tanking comes in different forms. There's organizational tanking, and then there's players not giving max effort on the field (or not even being on the field) because they know their season is over and they're just trying to collect a paycheck and not get hurt. I think, very clearly, Philly and Dallas qualify as such. Or at least have in specific cases in games.

 

[Simba]

OK, but as I said, why didn't you know that pregame?

You saw the same list of inactives that I did. How does one justify deactivating Wentz? You can't. They were tanking before the game started. Everybody knew it. They just didn't want to say it.

I don't have a problem with them benching Hurts any more than I do the Dolphins benching Tua. He sucked out there. He was terrible. He was as much a reason for them losing as for them winning. If you don't want to put Wentz out there, why are you putting Hurts out there? What's the gain?

Players can say anything they want. They want to play hard. If they all actually cared about winning as much as they say they do, then nobody would ever sign a contract with the Jets. Or the Jags. Or like a half dozen other teams who have been terrible for decades.

They might be disappointed with the outcome, but they're going to post for a paycheck next year all the same.

Again, there's a difference. Sit all those players? Fine. No issues with that. But we're talking about a blatant move to throw the game IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GAME. Those payers out there were busting their asses for the win. Was Hurts bad? Sure. But that is the exact moment you want him in. You're down by 3 with a young QB. That's where you see if he can rally and win the game. But Pederson made a blatant choice to actively lose that game. It's not the same.

 

[rmcjacket23]

they've had years where they had no SNF and this felt like a year where they should have considered it lol
or maybe not - they probably still got high ratings on it

I mean that game is still getting better ratings on SNF than in any other time slot. Nobody is watching that game in the 1pm timeslot outside of the DC/VA markets. I'm not even sure Eagles fans are watching.

I don't necessarily blame them for choosing that game, but again, that's the nature of the way it resulted. You didn't get the marquee game with two teams with high playoff implications.

Chicago/Green Bay and LA/Arizona did have that, but both were dependent on each other or other games, so its not perfect. It just sucks that your SNF game had a team in it that's just trying to run out the clock.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Again, there's a difference. Sit all those players? Fine. No issues with that. But we're talking about a blatant move to throw the game IN THE MIDDLE OF THE GAME. Those payers out there were busting their asses for the win. Was Hurts bad? Sure. But that is the exact moment you want him in. You're down by 3 with a young QB. That's where you see if he can rally and win the game. But Pederson made a blatant choice to actively lose that game. It's not the same.

And that's where we differ in how we view tanking.

For the record... if these guys are pretending like they're guaranteed to lose because they took Hurts out, then they're mentally weak to begin with. The best QB on the roster is already in street clothes, and this guy's been sucking all game long. Why they thought they were going to win with him in is mind blowing to me.

I'd have been begging Doug to put somebody else in there. They weren't down 3 because of Hurts. They were down 3 in spite of Hurts. So why would the QB even matter?

This is just the media and the public pretending like tanking isn't a thing because its usually more thinly veiled. Deactivating a bunch of key starters in order to tank has a LOT more impact on a football game than benching your 2nd best QB in the four quarter ever does. Its not up to the players who's inactive, and its not up to them who starts, who plays X number of snaps, etc.

The only storyline they had for the night was Skins fans vs Giants fans. The media knows both teams suck, and they know they're about as boring an uninteresting to watch as anybody in the league. They have to drum up interest somehow and sell the idea that people should watch the game. This was a great way to do it.

 

[Simba]

And that's where we differ in how we view tanking.

For the record... if these guys are pretending like they're guaranteed to lose because they took Hurts out, then they're mentally weak to begin with. The best QB on the roster is already in street clothes, and this guy's been sucking all game long. Why they thought they were going to win with him in is mind blowing to me.

I'd have been begging Doug to put somebody else in there. They weren't down 3 because of Hurts. They were down 3 in spite of Hurts. So why would the QB even matter?

This is just the media and the public pretending like tanking isn't a thing because its usually more thinly veiled. Deactivating a bunch of key starters in order to tank has a LOT more impact on a football game than benching your 2nd best QB in the four quarter ever does. Its not up to the players who's inactive, and its not up to them who starts, who plays X number of snaps, etc.

The only storyline they had for the night was Skins fans vs Giants fans. The media knows both teams suck, and they know they're about as boring an uninteresting to watch as anybody in the league. They have to drum up interest somehow and sell the idea that people should watch the game. This was a great way to do it.

You're still missing the point here. I have no problems with the Eagles opting to sit all of those guys. I know Jason Kelce had that whole speech about winning over getting a look at players, and I don't necessarily agree with that. I think that was the right choice - let some of your younger guys go out there and see what they can do. It's a smart business decision to see what you have and see what you might need to improve on next year (which for them is a lot).

But this is where the problem comes in. You put all of the younger guys out there and they put themselves in a position to win. It doesn't matter that Hurts wasn't playing well or another person isn't playing well - they were in a position to win. When they were in that position, the head coach made a blatant attempt to throw the game. It's not even solely Hurts vs. Sudfeld either, although I still don't understand that decision at all. It's the bypassing a FG. despite all analytics suggesting otherwise It's the QB change to a career 3rd stringer that probably won't be on the team next year. It's a multitude of things - all poor decisions by the HC that put all of these young guys who were out there busting their asses for a win in an incredibly poor situation.

 

[rmcjacket23]

You're still missing the point here. I have no problems with the Eagles opting to sit all of those guys. I know Jason Kelce had that whole speech about winning over getting a look at players, and I don't necessarily agree with that. I think that was the right choice - let some of your younger guys go out there and see what they can do. It's a smart business decision to see what you have and see what you might need to improve on next year (which for them is a lot).

But this is where the problem comes in. You put all of the younger guys out there and they put themselves in a position to win. It doesn't matter that Hurts wasn't playing well or another person isn't playing well - they were in a position to win. When they were in that position, the head coach made a blatant attempt to throw the game. It's not even solely Hurts vs. Sudfeld either, although I still don't understand that decision at all. It's the bypassing a FG. despite all analytics suggesting otherwise It's the QB change to a career 3rd stringer that probably won't be on the team next year. It's a multitude of things - all poor decisions by the HC that put all of these young guys who were out there busting their asses for a win in an incredibly poor situation.

No, I'm not missing the point. I just don't think its a good point.
My points are:
1. I don't care if they take the QB out, because the QB sucked. He wasn't helping you win. If this exercise is all about "players giving effort to help the team win", then you have 3 quarters of play to realize Hurts doesn't fit that category. The bad coaching mistake isn't pulling Hurts from the game. The bad coaching mistake was inactivating your best QB to begin with.
2. What poor situation did it put them in? Why should their effort be more or less with Sudfeld in there? Do your job. Play hard no matter who's in there. If you win, so be it. If you lose, well, you've done plenty of that already, giving max or less than max effort. Why would this game be any different?
3. Why the hell would anybody care about passing on a FG from the 4 yard line when you're a 4-11 team? What the hell are you playing for? A second tie? TD there and you're a genius.
It ain't like this was at the end of the game either. You got a whole quarter to score. And if you're worth a shit, you'll score.

 

[Simba]

No, I'm not missing the point. I just don't think its a good point.
My points are:
1. I don't care if they take the QB out, because the QB sucked. He wasn't helping you win. If this exercise is all about "players giving effort to help the team win", then you have 3 quarters of play to realize Hurts doesn't fit that category. The bad coaching mistake isn't pulling Hurts from the game. The bad coaching mistake was inactivating your best QB to begin with.
2. What poor situation did it put them in? Why should their effort be more or less with Sudfeld in there? Do your job. Play hard no matter who's in there. If you win, so be it. If you lose, well, you've done plenty of that already, giving max or less than max effort. Why would this game be any different?
3. Why the hell would anybody care about passing on a FG from the 4 yard line when you're a 4-11 team? What the hell are you playing for? A second tie? TD there and you're a genius.

Well I know I'd never be willing to play for you if you were a HC. Pederson lost all respect and probably lost that locker room and if you can't see that, I can't help you.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Well I know I'd never be willing to play for you if you were a HC. Pederson lost all respect and probably lost that locker room and if you can't see that, I can't help you.

He lost the locker room months before that. And a lot of those players will be on other teams because the organization won't continue to pay them for giving little to no effort.

And the influx of trade requests or cuts that these so-called "offended" players won't be happening. You'll see in time. A lot of these guys are getting paid pretty good money, and won't be getting more elsewhere. They'll stick with whatever team is willing to continue that.

 

[Simba]

On an unrelated note, just wanted to give some shoutouts to some unheralded players that played some big parts for us:

1. Eric Tomlinson - the running game started working again once he fulfilled the Boyle role. He's not Nick Boyle but he's been an incredibly competent replacement and a big reason why we've had so much success

2. Ben Powers - he's no Yanda but he stabilized that RG spot and was an excellent puller, much in the Bozeman realm

3. Derek Wolfe - we already know this one, but this dude busted his ass for weeks taking way too many snaps while some other guys got healthy. Doesn't have the sack numbers he did in Denver but he was such a valuable piece of this defensive front

4. Chris Board - it took him some time but he's really come on as of late and has been excellent in coverage

5. LJ Fort - as solid of a role player as it gets. He's done so many good things for us this year.

6. Anthony Averett - he took so much shit early in the year for no apparent reason. He's been a godsend with our CB injuries and has proven himself as a solid starting option should we need it

Lots of other guys did some really good things for us this season, but I feel like the guys above in particular pushed us through some rough patches and really helped stabilize a team that was trying to find an identity for a good portion of the season.

 

[cdp]

On an unrelated note, just wanted to give some shoutouts to some unheralded players that played some big parts for us:

1. Eric Tomlinson - the running game started working again once he fulfilled the Boyle role. He's not Nick Boyle but he's been an incredibly competent replacement and a big reason why we've had so much success

2. Ben Powers - he's no Yanda but he stabilized that RG spot and was an excellent puller, much in the Bozeman realm

3. Derek Wolfe - we already know this one, but this dude busted his ass for weeks taking way too many snaps while some other guys got healthy. Doesn't have the sack numbers he did in Denver but he was such a valuable piece of this defensive front

4. Chris Board - it took him some time but he's really come on as of late and has been excellent in coverage

5. LJ Fort - as solid of a role player as it gets. He's done so many good things for us this year.

6. Anthony Averett - he took so much shit early in the year for no apparent reason. He's been a godsend with our CB injuries and has proven himself as a solid starting option should we need it

Lots of other guys did some really good things for us this season, but I feel like the guys above in particular pushed us through some rough patches and really helped stabilize a team that was trying to find an identity for a good portion of the season.

Agree especially in Averett and Board's case. I may have overreacted when I criticized them but both really improved and showed up when we needed them.

 

[RavensMania]

Agree especially in Averett and Board's case. I may have overreacted when I criticized them but both really

To think how far Averett has come since last seasons loss to the Browns.

 

[rossihunter2]

On an unrelated note, just wanted to give some shoutouts to some unheralded players that played some big parts for us:

1. Eric Tomlinson - the running game started working again once he fulfilled the Boyle role. He's not Nick Boyle but he's been an incredibly competent replacement and a big reason why we've had so much success

2. Ben Powers - he's no Yanda but he stabilized that RG spot and was an excellent puller, much in the Bozeman realm

3. Derek Wolfe - we already know this one, but this dude busted his ass for weeks taking way too many snaps while some other guys got healthy. Doesn't have the sack numbers he did in Denver but he was such a valuable piece of this defensive front

4. Chris Board - it took him some time but he's really come on as of late and has been excellent in coverage

5. LJ Fort - as solid of a role player as it gets. He's done so many good things for us this year.

6. Anthony Averett - he took so much shit early in the year for no apparent reason. He's been a godsend with our CB injuries and has proven himself as a solid starting option should we need it

Lots of other guys did some really good things for us this season, but I feel like the guys above in particular pushed us through some rough patches and really helped stabilize a team that was trying to find an identity for a good portion of the season.

Eric Tomlinson has been great as an in-line blocker - we're not really motioning him a ton like we would with Boyle but honestly he's done pretty well getting those downblocks and sealing in level 2 from that strong side - offers no threat as a receiver but as long as he runs the right route and has at least 1 defender on him then he's doing his job in those packages

Ben Powers has been a revelation - i think the biggest difference between him and the other guys we've had play that spot this year is that he's getting to level 2 and making his blocks in level 2 which is what really helps spring those running plays especially when we're winning outside it's crucial to seal off the linebacker and he's done a pretty good job at that - been a good puller as you say too and really solid in pass pro

it was always a misunderstanding of Derek Wolfe that he had those sack numbers - he was never a pass rushing aficionado but often got sacks by virtue of being on the field with the guys around him - he would often be doing the dirty work for those guys and sometimes that means you end up with the sacks if you play enough in those packages with talent around you but he's been excellent

Chris Board is a real surprise for me - never saw much of anything that I thought would actually lead to play time - he's been playing increasingly in recent weeks and I guess is earning that playing time (seemingly at the expense of LJ Fort) - still not convinced but he's been making plays the last 2-3 weeks

Anthony Averett has been nothing short of outstanding given the positions we've put him in - was unlucky not to have 2 picks yesterday

 

[rossihunter2]

I think it'll be difficult to fire him with that roster and QB situation, but I could be wrong. Much easier to do had they not made the playoffs and finished with a worse record. And don't get me wrong... he sucks as a HC and should be gone.

That team is royally screwed for the next few years. They have to make a decision on Trubisky this offseason, which will be brutal. If they pass on him, they'll need to sign somebody in FA, meaning you're getting an average guy to just try to make the same like 8-9 win run to the playoffs as this year.

or they build again with a new QB - this draft class is full of interesting options - maybe 6 or 7 guys who some teams might consider 1st round (or on the cusp of 1st round) QBs

 

[Simba]

Eric Tomlinson has been great as an in-line blocker - we're not really motioning him a ton like we would with Boyle but honestly he's done pretty well getting those downblocks and sealing in level 2 from that strong side - offers no threat as a receiver but as long as he runs the right route and has at least 1 defender on him then he's doing his job in those packages

Ben Powers has been a revelation - i think the biggest difference between him and the other guys we've had play that spot this year is that he's getting to level 2 and making his blocks in level 2 which is what really helps spring those running plays especially when we're winning outside it's crucial to seal off the linebacker and he's done a pretty good job at that - been a good puller as you say too and really solid in pass pro

it was always a misunderstanding of Derek Wolfe that he had those sack numbers - he was never a pass rushing aficionado but often got sacks by virtue of being on the field with the guys around him - he would often be doing the dirty work for those guys and sometimes that means you end up with the sacks if you play enough in those packages with talent around you but he's been excellent

Chris Board is a real surprise for me - never saw much of anything that I thought would actually lead to play time - he's been playing increasingly in recent weeks and I guess is earning that playing time (seemingly at the expense of LJ Fort) - still not convinced but he's been making plays the last 2-3 weeks

Anthony Averett has been nothing short of outstanding given the positions we've put him in - was unlucky not to have 2 picks yesterday

I think the biggest thing I like about Tomlinson is that when you bring him in and an extra offensive lineman, we're signaling our intent to run. And with that, they still can't stop it. That is the Boyle effect. Willson had more skills as a receiver but you couldn't replicate what made us so successful with him.

 

[rmcjacket23]

or they build again with a new QB - this draft class is full of interesting options - maybe 6 or 7 guys who some teams might consider 1st round (or on the cusp of 1st round) QBs

And that's possible. But assuming they're bringing back the same GM and coach, this is a group that picked Trubisky over Mahomes and Watson. There's not a lot of faith in their identification and development of QB talent. I think their best chance at getting a franchise QB is ending up with a top 5 pick and having somebody they can't possibly screw up fall into their laps.