The WR Thread

[Jacquouille]

I’m not super high on Kirk. He’s a good returner and good at taking a pass at the LOS and getting YAC, he looks fast and pretty quick, but I see stuff that says he’s the most polished WR in this class. I don’t even think anyone should be allowed to say that. He might be a good WR in the NFL but he belongs on a team like the Saints. Not us. I want a big boy like Sutton to grab Joe’s jump balls or a great route runner with great hands like Miller or Ridley who can get good seperation. Idk I don’t see how Kirk is better than Miller. Still the only real knock anyone has given on Miller is his size and that’s bs because he plays way bigger than he is. He’s got serious potential.

Size isn't yet a problem because he hasn't played against physical corners, Mike Hughes excepted (and from what I've seen Hughes got the better part).
Health is a problem and it looks bigger and bigger as we get more news on him. Playing this style at this size makes you as vulnerable as Corey Coleman at the next level.
Not fast. The more I watch, the slower he looks. He's super quick and super explosive yes, and that makes him look fast, but when he runs a straight line he's not fast.
A lot of his production comes from scheme (screens basically) or against very soft coverage.

Connor Roges made the best comp I can think of: he's a poor man's Jarvis Landry. That's as precise as can be.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Size isn't yet a problem because he hasn't played against physical corners, Mike Hughes excepted (and from what I've seen Hughes got the better part).
Health is a problem and it looks bigger and bigger as we get more news on him. Playing this style at this size makes you as vulnerable as Corey Coleman at the next level.
Not fast. The more I watch, the slower he looks. He's super quick and super explosive yes, and that makes him look fast, but when he runs a straight line he's not fast.
A lot of his production comes from scheme (screens basically) or against very soft coverage.

Connor Roges made the best comp I can think of: he's a poor man's Jarvis Landry. That's as precise as can be.

Funny, all the same could be said about Kirk who's production was more manufactured than landrys lol

 

[Jacquouille]

Funny, all the same could be said about Kirk who's production was more manufactured than landrys lol

Some part of it. But not as much. His best game was his last and it was all him.

 

[Ravensnation5220]

I don't see better YAC ability, Miller is dangerous with the ball in his hands and his first step leaves guys trailing, he has more explosive and exaggerated cuts where Kirk is very controlled and fluid and wastes no motion but he isn't jumpstepping and making the same hard cuts that Miller is, Kirk can evade tacklers but Miller leaves tacklers looking absolutely foolish at times, Miller has a stiff arm on par with some RBs, and I don't wanna use this as a quantifiable trait here but Miller is a man on a mission when he turns upfield with the ball in his hand, he runs with bad intentions.

Im sure he does make those American Athletic conference decenders look silly. Kirk would too, yet kirk plays in the SEC. Im pretty sure Miller wouldnt be doing the same in the SEC. Level of competition does matter in that aspect

 

[DeVito52]

Funny, all the same could be said about Kirk who's production was more manufactured than landrys lol

Was just going to say the same thing. If you think Millers touches were manufactured boy oh boy you haven’t watched Kirk lol

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Im sure he does make those American Athletic conference decenders look silly. Kirk would too, yet kirk plays in the SEC. Im pretty sure Miller wouldnt be doing the same in the SEC. Level of competition does matter in that aspect

antonio brown in the mid American conference must have faced some stiff competition huh?

 

[Ravensnation5220]

antonio brown in the mid American conference must have faced some stiff competition huh?

We're not comparing AB to anyone. We are comparing Miller and Kirk

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Some part of it. But not as much. His best game was his last and it was all him.

You don't think his best game was vs Arkansas which was extremely manufactured? He totally took over that game but he did it with returns and screens mostly

 

[JoeyFlex5]

We're not comparing AB to anyone. We are comparing Miller and Kirk

And you're making the argument of level of competition which makes it a relevant argument to bring up other successful NFL WRs of a similar ilk who came up against weak competition. I'm not comparing the 2 players, I'm comparing their level of competition as a point that there are great players at every position who played in a weak college conference

 

[DeVito52]

Im sure he does make those American Athletic conference decenders look silly. Kirk would too, yet kirk plays in the SEC. Im pretty sure Miller wouldnt be doing the same in the SEC. Level of competition does matter in that aspect

I’m so tired of this sentiment. Its been proven over and over again that wide receivers don’t need to come from large schools. If a WR has the obvious explosiveness and other traits it doesn’t matter what competition they go against.

The best wide receiver of all time came from damn Mississippi Valley State. Yep, Jerry Rice. Off the top of my head I can name several others, Randy Moss, Terrel Owens, Antonio Brown. Hell, Corey Davis was picked what? 5th? No one was hating on his great route running skills because he faced “weak” competition.

 

[Ravensnation5220]

And you're making the argument of level of competition which makes it a relevant argument to bring up other successful NFL WRs of a similar ilk who came up against weak competition. I'm not comparing the 2 players, I'm comparing their level of competition as a point that there are great players at every position who played in a weak college conference

I was just pointing out WHY Miller may LOOK to have better YAC ability. I never said Miller will be bust, i think he will be very successful in the NFL, i just see Kirk as the more sure thing. Kirk went against better competition and there is no disputing that. Which, in turn, makes it seem Miller has more big plays. Had Miller played in the SEC im sure he wouldnt be making people look foolish as often

 

[Ravensnation5220]

I’m so tired of this sentiment. Its been proven over and over again that wide receivers don’t need to come from large schools. If a WR has the obvious explosiveness and other traits it doesn’t matter what competition they go against.

The best wide receiver of all time came from damn Mississippi Valley State. Yep, Jerry Rice. Off the top of my head I can name several others, Randy Moss, Terrel Owens, Antonio Brown. Hell, Corey Davis was picked what? 5th? No one was hating on his great route running skills because he faced “weak” competition.

Your missing my point entirely. Im not saying small school recievers cant ball, im saying that their athletic ability shines more than it would if you had equal level of competition. Miller would not have the same production he had, had he played in the SEC

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I was just pointing out WHY Miller may LOOK to have better YAC ability. I never said Miller will be bust, i think he will be very successful in the NFL, i just see Kirk as the more sure thing. Kirk went against better competition and there is no disputing that. Which, in turn, makes it seem Miller has more big plays. Had Miller played in the SEC im sure he wouldnt be making people look foolish as often

But here's the thing, when I scout a player, I don't just look and see a guy making big explosive plays, I look for traits and form an opinion on how well they translate, things like speed aren't typically gonna be affected by school size, because NCAA players are usually running at a similar speed regardless of conference(the speed in which they process and execute is what makes a leap in bigger conferences), his ability to catch a pass in tight coverage will be affected by competition, as will his ability to separate, but it's not the result of the play, it's the actual trait shown, whether you have a top flight corner or a small school walk on, a great release off the line and a great break on the route can gain separation, when he makes his breaks he does it strong and decisively and makes DBs hesitate, he leaves no room for jumping of routes because DBs have to respect his ability to change direction and they have no way of anticipating which way he will go because he stutters and sells the fake and explodes out of his break leaving the db playing catch up, it doesn't matter what your talent level is against that, the only way you're gonna be NOT playing catch up is with excessive film study and gambling in coverage.

Miller shows traits that some of the best possession WRs have shown, and these are also guys who appear to be slot receivers but then play big enough to play outside as well, gaining separation through crafty and very explosive route running wins at any level, attacking the ball to ensure the db has little chance to play it wins at any level, the fiery style and competitiveness is always a big bonus, and his ability to make an acrobatic catch or make a YAC play is also a bonus. But the real winning trait with Miller is his ability to make a db stop like a deer in headlights and wonder "wtf cut is this guy about to make?" And leave them trailing. It's either take a gamble on millers route, or give up the catch and make a tackle, very often with Miller, that is thanks to his explosive breaks and aggressive style of attacking the ball.

 

[rossihunter2]

But here's the thing, when I scout a player, I don't just look and see a guy making big explosive plays, I look for traits and form an opinion on how well they translate, things like speed aren't typically gonna be affected by school size, because NCAA players are usually running at a similar speed regardless of conference(the speed in which they process and execute is what makes a leap in bigger conferences), his ability to catch a pass in tight coverage will be affected by competition, as will his ability to separate, but it's not the result of the play, it's the actual trait shown, whether you have a top flight corner or a small school walk on, a great release off the line and a great break on the route can gain separation, when he makes his breaks he does it strong and decisively and makes DBs hesitate, he leaves no room for jumping of routes because DBs have to respect his ability to change direction and they have no way of anticipating which way he will go because he stutters and sells the fake and explodes out of his break leaving the db playing catch up, it doesn't matter what your talent level is against that, the only way you're gonna be NOT playing catch up is with excessive film study and gambling in coverage.

Miller shows traits that some of the best possession WRs have shown, and these are also guys who appear to be slot receivers but then play big enough to play outside as well, gaining separation through crafty and very explosive route running wins at any level, attacking the ball to ensure the db has little chance to play it wins at any level, the fiery style and competitiveness is always a big bonus, and his ability to make an acrobatic catch or make a YAC play is also a bonus. But the real winning trait with Miller is his ability to make a db stop like a deer in headlights and wonder "wtf cut is this guy about to make?" And leave them trailing. It's either take a gamble on millers route, or give up the catch and make a tackle, very often with Miller, that is thanks to his explosive breaks and aggressive style of attacking the ball.

he also has an uncanny habit of getting in the endzone on redzone plays...
Miller had 11 touchdowns in the Red Zone in 2017, 6 of those were inside the 10 yard line. When Memphis needed a big play, they obviously went to him.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

he also has an uncanny habit of getting in the endzone on redzone plays...
Miller had 11 touchdowns in the Red Zone in 2017, 6 of those were inside the 10 yard line. When Memphis needed a big play, they obviously went to him.

And why is that? He gets open and he does it fast, and he attacks the ball aggressively, limiting the chance of a db playing the ball in those tight windowed throws

 

[rossihunter2]

And why is that? He gets open and he does it fast, and he attacks the ball aggressively, limiting the chance of a db playing the ball in those tight windowed throws

i know it's not something you like to do and i mostly agree (partly because i havent been watching college football long enough to be able to do it) but he really does look a lot like steve smith

 

[JoeyFlex5]

i know it's not something you like to do and i mostly agree (partly because i havent been watching college football long enough to be able to do it) but he really does look a lot like steve smith

I like player comparisons, what I DONT like is comparing a ravens player because it feels lazy, however, Steve smith entered my head immediately when I saw him attacking the ball and when I saw how strong and determined he played with the ball in his hands at such a small stature. I was a big Steve smith fan when he was in Carolina and if he never came to the ravens I would have the same thought

 

[Jacquouille]

You don't think his best game was vs Arkansas which was extremely manufactured? He totally took over that game but he did it with returns and screens mostly

No, as a prospect it wasn't his best game. QB was shit at the time btw. His game against Wake Forest shows a guy worthy of a first round choice.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

No, as a prospect it wasn't his best game. QB was shit at the time btw. His game against Wake Forest shows a guy worthy of a first round choice.

I'll be sure to look at it because so far I've seen a guy who is basically a slower tyreek hill, running screens, end arounds, and returning on special teams.

I have seen a lot to like, and don't want this to be taken wrong, I like Kirk as a prospect, I like his natural feel for picking apart the zones and his uncanny ability to follow blocks and weave through traffic, and his soft and very consistent hands, I just see Miller as a much higher ceiling guy with the same floor

 

[Oldfaithful]

I wouldn't hate St. Brown, but upon further evaluation he's far more of a compliment piece. We'd need to draft or sign a physical guy to pair with him