Fire Greg Roman thread

[JO_75]

Want some halftime entertainment? Here's Steve Smith calling out Greg Roman for the same system and predictably that we are seeing. Once defensive coordinators figure him out, his offenses are DONE. He needs to go after this year.

 

[ravenslord]

Want some halftime entertainment? Here's Steve Smith calling out Greg Roman for the same system and predictably that we are seeing. Once defensive coordinators figure him out, his offenses are DONE. He needs to go after this year.

And Steve Smith is correct . We must let him go after this year .

 

[BoredMarine13]

Want some halftime entertainment? Here's Steve Smith calling out Greg Roman for the same system and predictably that we are seeing. Once defensive coordinators figure him out, his offenses are DONE. He needs to go after this year.

Lamar is so limited in this offense and will never grow.....

My concern is if this is Greg Roman being stubborn or Greg Roman being restrained by Lamar’s talent level ... I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RavensMania]

Lamar is so limited in this offense and will never grow.....

My concern is if this is Greg Roman being stubborn or Greg Roman being restrained by Lamar’s talent level ... I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think it has anything to do with Lamar's talent level, but due to Roman's lack of creativity in the passing game. Roman is awful a situational play caller.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I don't think it has anything to do with Lamar's talent level, but due to Roman's lack of creativity in the passing game. Roman is awful a situational play caller.

True, but Roman isn't the one with horrible passing mechanics, arm angles, etc.

You'd be hard pressed to find a QB in this league with worse passing mechanics than Lamar. He throws a dime to Brown in the end zone, and yet every single other throw last night I would call bad by NFL standards.

Even the TD to Boykin. It wasn't a terrible throw, but like, that's high school, pitch and catch, playground level open. Just put the ball on his hands and he walks in. He made it look difficult.

If I didn't know any better, I would think Lamar is actively trying to make easy throws look hard so that he can make people think he can make difficult throws. It's not working.

 

[cdp]

Want some halftime entertainment? Here's Steve Smith calling out Greg Roman for the same system and predictably that we are seeing. Once defensive coordinators figure him out, his offenses are DONE. He needs to go after this year.

In Roman's defense it's not like we run exclusively 22 personnel (2 Rb, 2 TE, 1WR). As of today the % stands at 16%, this % is the highest in the league though. The other grouping we often use are:

• 11p = 3WRs 52%
• 12p= 2WRs 14%
• 21p= 2Wrs 13%

Given the players we have, it makes sense to run more heavy personnel groupings. Now with Boyle out for the season I think these numbers will shift towards league average -> more 11p. 21p (i.e. 2 RB & 1 TE) is also a possibility.

I think it's more of running the same concepts out of the same formations than 22p. The players definitely have to clean some stuff up on their part as well, but they can only be as efficient as Roman or another OC allows them.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Roman didn’t have a bad gameplan last night, I quite liked most of it, the rollout pass where Hollywood didn’t even attempt to toe tap was on Hollywood but I just hate those play calls, they don’t work often and philosophically it doesn’t make sense.

my biggest gripe with last night was the Ingram force feeding, again. It’s gotta stop.

 

[rossihunter2]

In Roman's defense it's not like we run exclusively 22 personnel (2 Rb, 2 TE, 1WR). As of today the % stands at 16%, this % is the highest in the league though. The other grouping we often use are:

• 11p = 3WRs 52%
• 12p= 2WRs 14%
• 21p= 2Wrs 13%

Given the players we have, it makes sense to run more heavy personnel groupings. Now with Boyle out for the season I think these numbers will shift towards league average -> more 11p. 21p (i.e. 2 RB & 1 TE) is also a possibility.

I think it's more of running the same concepts out of the same formations than 22p. The players definitely have to clean some stuff up on their part as well, but they can only be as efficient as Roman or another OC allows them.

yeah 22 personnel will only ever look a few different ways - he's probably one of the few OCs in the league who use 22 personnel semi-regularly but that's not necessarily a tell

our running game is not an issue in terms of its designs and predictability

the problem we have is our passing game (which is pretty unrelated to our 22 personnel given that's predominantly a running formation)

 

[rossihunter2]

Roman didn’t have a bad gameplan last night, I quite liked most of it, the rollout pass where Hollywood didn’t even attempt to toe tap was on Hollywood but I just hate those play calls, they don’t work often and philosophically it doesn’t make sense.

my biggest gripe with last night was the Ingram force feeding, again. It’s gotta stop.

running game looked great and explosive and physical and creative

passing game looks stale and broken - not sure it's fixable before the end of the season

 

[UPennChem]

running game looked great and explosive and physical and creative

passing game looks stale and broken - not sure it's fixable before the end of the season

But like theoretically it has to be possible right? Like if you've done something the same way for 75% of a season and it doesn't work, it's predictable and stale, how could a switch to literally anything else not be better? If not only for the fact it will be less predictable. I think that's one of the biggest issues for us. If you're opponent knows your weakness and they can predict you, it is going to be even harder to overcome your weakness. You're battling both yourself and the confidence and prediction of your opponent. I'm not asking for something extravagant. But we need to do something less predictable

 

[rmcjacket23]

But like theoretically it has to be possible right? Like if you've done something the same way for 75% of a season and it doesn't work, it's predictable and stale, how could a switch to literally anything else not be better? If not only for the fact it will be less predictable. I think that's one of the biggest issues for us. If you're opponent knows your weakness and they can predict you, it is going to be even harder to overcome your weakness. You're battling both yourself and the confidence and prediction of your opponent. I'm not asking for something extravagant. But we need to do something less predictable

I mean less predictable also requires execution though.

Like the least predictable thing you could do is have Lamar throw outside the numbers more than like 1-2 times a game. No defense will expect it. Will the pass be completed? Well that's a big ?, and not something Roman can be responsible for.

While I certainly don't think Roman is some master play-caller, I think fans would be absolutely SHOCKED by the change in our offense if our QB could make throws to the boundary from the pocket. Like all of the sudden, you'd have guys running down the seam wide open for huge gains.

 

[UPennChem]

I mean less predictable also requires execution though.

Like the least predictable thing you could do is have Lamar throw outside the numbers more than like 1-2 times a game. No defense will expect it. Will the pass be completed? Well that's a big ?, and not something Roman can be responsible for.

While I certainly don't think Roman is some master play-caller, I think fans would be absolutely SHOCKED by the change in our offense if our QB could make throws to the boundary from the pocket. Like all of the sudden, you'd have guys running down the seam wide open for huge gains.

That's certainly true. But I am also not sure Lamar "can't" throw outside the numbers. Especially this year it really seems like Lamar can make every throw, but the consistency is just so erratic. Like there are plenty of layups that Lamar makes look so difficult. Other times he does things that have you scratching your head like how? I guess all I'm getting at is I wouldn't be afraid to call those plays because we're going to flat out assume Lamar won't make them. Lamar is going to be up and down and it's in our best interest to cater to him. I wonder what his thoughts are.

 

[rmcjacket23]

That's certainly true. But I am also not sure Lamar "can't" throw outside the numbers. Especially this year it really seems like Lamar can make every throw, but the consistency is just so erratic. Like there are plenty of layups that Lamar makes look so difficult. Other times he does things that have you scratching your head like how? I guess all I'm getting at is I wouldn't be afraid to call those plays because we're going to flat out assume Lamar won't make them. Lamar is going to be up and down and it's in our best interest to cater to him. I wonder what his thoughts are.

Well I give coaches the benefit of the doubt of knowing their players limitations (perhaps to a fault) more than fans do. I doubt the reason Roman isn't dialing up those plays is because he thinks they're not good plays. I would also bet that, if I watched every route tree combination of every game, I'd find many, many, many route combos where 1 or even 2 receivers are running boundary-level routes, and the QB isn't throwing or targeting that way. I'm sure its a combination of a play caller who doesn't think his QB can make those throws (based on what he sees every day/week in practice), a QB who doesn't want to make those throws, and receivers who aren't good in that area of the field. I think all three are a factor.

I have a theory I floated out to some my avid game-watching fans who don't necessarily follow the Ravens. They were going to review some tape in the offseason on this. The theory is essentially this...
Lamar is so focused on not getting sacked and making plays at the position, that he doesn't want to go through progressions from sideline to sideline. At least to a certain degree, if I'm throwing to the boundary, my eyes have to go that way. And in some cases, portions of my body have to go that way. If I'm looking left, I can't necessarily see what's coming from the right. And vice versa. In addition to poor mechanics, its why even when he throws to the boundaries, he never squares up his body to do or seemingly never steps into the throw. He basically just keeps his body squared to the middle of the field, and uses arm angles or his feet to get the ball out. And that causes some erratic ball placement.

To me, if he's focused on the middle, he can largely see everything. He can see or feel the rush from both sides. Seemingly, he'd rather not take the outside route, instead of not getting sacked. Its why he doesn't get sacked from the outside very often... he sees it and can escape forward.

Now that's good QB pocket awareness, but if you're not willing to turn your body and use good mechanics to deliver to the boundary, you'll never be a good passer that way. And NFL teams will exploit the hell out of that.

If I were to compare him to Joe... Joe made some terrible decisions. But Joe's mechanics, at least until his offensive line fell apart and he became somewhat gun shy in the pocket, were exceptional. He had no problem firing darts to anywhere on the field, and he used proper passing mechanics (footwork, eyesight, etc.) to do it. He was gifted with a strong arm also, but like there's a reason why guys like Manning and Rivers can still make a lot of boundary throws late in their career with well below average arm strength.

Its mechanics. And Lamar's are not good right now.

 

[UPennChem]

Well I give coaches the benefit of the doubt of knowing their players limitations (perhaps to a fault) more than fans do. I doubt the reason Roman isn't dialing up those plays is because he thinks they're not good plays. I would also bet that, if I watched every route tree combination of every game, I'd find many, many, many route combos where 1 or even 2 receivers are running boundary-level routes, and the QB isn't throwing or targeting that way. I'm sure its a combination of a play caller who doesn't think his QB can make those throws (based on what he sees every day/week in practice), a QB who doesn't want to make those throws, and receivers who aren't good in that area of the field. I think all three are a factor.

I have a theory I floated out to some my avid game-watching fans who don't necessarily follow the Ravens. They were going to review some tape in the offseason on this. The theory is essentially this...
Lamar is so focused on not getting sacked and making plays at the position, that he doesn't want to go through progressions from sideline to sideline. At least to a certain degree, if I'm throwing to the boundary, my eyes have to go that way. And in some cases, portions of my body have to go that way. If I'm looking left, I can't necessarily see what's coming from the right. And vice versa. In addition to poor mechanics, its why even when he throws to the boundaries, he never squares up his body to do or seemingly never steps into the throw. He basically just keeps his body squared to the middle of the field, and uses arm angles or his feet to get the ball out. And that causes some erratic ball placement.

To me, if he's focused on the middle, he can largely see everything. He can see or feel the rush from both sides. Seemingly, he'd rather not take the outside route, instead of not getting sacked. Its why he doesn't get sacked from the outside very often... he sees it and can escape forward.

Now that's good QB pocket awareness, but if you're not willing to turn your body and use good mechanics to deliver to the boundary, you'll never be a good passer that way. And NFL teams will exploit the hell out of that.

If I were to compare him to Joe... Joe made some terrible decisions. But Joe's mechanics, at least until his offensive line fell apart and he became somewhat gun shy in the pocket, were exceptional. He had no problem firing darts to anywhere on the field, and he used proper passing mechanics (footwork, eyesight, etc.) to do it. He was gifted with a strong arm also, but like there's a reason why guys like Manning and Rivers can still make a lot of boundary throws late in their career with well below average arm strength.

Its mechanics. And Lamar's are not good right now.

I think that's a tremendously reasonable assessment. There seems like a lot of data from watching that supports that

 

[rmcjacket23]

I think that's a tremendously reasonable assessment. There seems like a lot of data from watching that supports that

Which to close the loop...
a) seems highly unlikely that will change during the 2020 season.
b) as I alluded to like two weeks ago, if I'm Lamar, I'm spending every second of my offseason working on my mechanics as a passer and learning how to accurately throw outside the numbers.

If there's not evolution there, there are MAJOR red flags when it comes to a long term deal. Like in 4-5 years, he won't be outrunning the defense. And I would hate to be in the middle of a $35-40M+ contract, with a lot of guaranteed money, when his effectiveness as a runner decreases and there's no offseting improvement as a passer. The decline in that case is so steep it'll make people wish for the days of Flacco, no matter how great the ride was to get there.

 

[rossihunter2]

But like theoretically it has to be possible right? Like if you've done something the same way for 75% of a season and it doesn't work, it's predictable and stale, how could a switch to literally anything else not be better? If not only for the fact it will be less predictable. I think that's one of the biggest issues for us. If you're opponent knows your weakness and they can predict you, it is going to be even harder to overcome your weakness. You're battling both yourself and the confidence and prediction of your opponent. I'm not asking for something extravagant. But we need to do something less predictable

because it looks like the concepts themselves arent working - it's almost impossible to completely change the entire concept of your passing offence midseason - the plays that we might want to shift towards look like they might not be in the playbook right now which means we cant call them

id like to see us run playaction more on 1st down, id like to see us get hollywood running some comebacks and duvernay running those RPO slants that we get hollywood to run a lot

but beyond that im not sure there's much we can change mid-season on a fundamental basis

 

[rossihunter2]

I have a theory I floated out to some my avid game-watching fans who don't necessarily follow the Ravens. They were going to review some tape in the offseason on this. The theory is essentially this...
Lamar is so focused on not getting sacked and making plays at the position, that he doesn't want to go through progressions from sideline to sideline. At least to a certain degree, if I'm throwing to the boundary, my eyes have to go that way. And in some cases, portions of my body have to go that way. If I'm looking left, I can't necessarily see what's coming from the right. And vice versa. In addition to poor mechanics, its why even when he throws to the boundaries, he never squares up his body to do or seemingly never steps into the throw. He basically just keeps his body squared to the middle of the field, and uses arm angles or his feet to get the ball out. And that causes some erratic ball placement.

To me, if he's focused on the middle, he can largely see everything. He can see or feel the rush from both sides. Seemingly, he'd rather not take the outside route, instead of not getting sacked. Its why he doesn't get sacked from the outside very often... he sees it and can escape forward.

Now that's good QB pocket awareness, but if you're not willing to turn your body and use good mechanics to deliver to the boundary, you'll never be a good passer that way. And NFL teams will exploit the hell out of that.

If I were to compare him to Joe... Joe made some terrible decisions. But Joe's mechanics, at least until his offensive line fell apart and he became somewhat gun shy in the pocket, were exceptional. He had no problem firing darts to anywhere on the field, and he used proper passing mechanics (footwork, eyesight, etc.) to do it. He was gifted with a strong arm also, but like there's a reason why guys like Manning and Rivers can still make a lot of boundary throws late in their career with well below average arm strength.

i dont know that i necessarily agree with the idea that lamar just doesnt want to read outside - lamar's not shying away from turning his head and reading to the outside on the coaches film ive seen this year - but i think it's fair to say he's less confident in those throws and those reads

and i wonder if that's also partly down to the receivers and the chemistry with those receivers - lots of routes to the boundary require timing and trust and chemistry to complete - look at dalton and noah brown's 10+ yard simple completion against marcus peters on Tuesday night - it was completed because of the timing of the route and throw

lamar's footwork has been pretty good this year - id say that's not the part of his mechanics that's not been working from what i can see this year

also joe's mechanics really were not that great - he had a nice tight release but his footwork from 2015 onwards was pretty awful - constantly throwing off his back-foot and not planting and delivering

i think one of the few good points aikman made on the broadcast last night was that lamar right now is still a "have to see it" passer - either for trust reasons or reading reasons or even confidence reasons, he's not comfortable right now on timing based routes that throw guys open in small windows which is why it's so rare to see us use quick passing concepts

 

[rmcjacket23]

i dont know that i necessarily agree with the idea that lamar just doesnt want to read outside - lamar's not shying away from turning his head and reading to the outside on the coaches film ive seen this year - but i think it's fair to say he's less confident in those throws and those reads

and i wonder if that's also partly down to the receivers and the chemistry with those receivers - lots of routes to the boundary require timing and trust and chemistry to complete - look at dalton and noah brown's 10+ yard simple completion against marcus peters on Tuesday night - it was completed because of the timing of the route and throw

lamar's footwork has been pretty good this year - id say that's not the part of his mechanics that's not been working from what i can see this year

also joe's mechanics really were not that great - he had a nice tight release but his footwork from 2015 onwards was pretty awful - constantly throwing off his back-foot and not planting and delivering

i think one of the few good points aikman made on the broadcast last night was that lamar right now is still a "have to see it" passer - either for trust reasons or reading reasons or even confidence reasons, he's not comfortable right now on timing based routes that throw guys open in small windows which is why it's so rare to see us use quick passing concepts

In regards to Joe, I caveated it by saying it was basically pre-offensive line/health issues. I agree that basically from injury (or even a little before) forward his mechanics were terrible.

But like 08-14 they were pretty solid.

I don't think Lamar's footwork is terrible, though I think anytime he's throwing outside from the pocket, his feet aren't in a good position. I think he does find in the pocket and on deep balls when he's working the middle of the field.

 

[rossihunter2]

In regards to Joe, I caveated it by saying it was basically pre-offensive line/health issues. I agree that basically from injury (or even a little before) forward his mechanics were terrible.

But like 08-14 they were pretty solid.

I don't think Lamar's footwork is terrible, though I think anytime he's throwing outside from the pocket, his feet aren't in a good position. I think he does find in the pocket and on deep balls when he's working the middle of the field.

supposedly this offseason was about outside the numbers and deep but i have to wonder if he was actually given the right support to do that because of the pandemic - he didnt get the chance to work with joshua harris who was instrumental in cleaning up his footwork in 2019 so it's possible that stuff he was doing wasn't right from the outset

happy to give him a mulligan on those things this year and see if the 2021 offseason gets him to that stage

as you say that will be a big indicator of whether this will work out in the longer term

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I mean less predictable also requires execution though.

Like the least predictable thing you could do is have Lamar throw outside the numbers more than like 1-2 times a game. No defense will expect it. Will the pass be completed? Well that's a big ?, and not something Roman can be responsible for.

While I certainly don't think Roman is some master play-caller, I think fans would be absolutely SHOCKED by the change in our offense if our QB could make throws to the boundary from the pocket. Like all of the sudden, you'd have guys running down the seam wide open for huge gains.

While I’m calling for Roman to make changes, I agree with all of this. Lamar has been bad throwing the ball, and the way defenders play us makes it look so easy to defend, just know it’s getting thrown short and inside and play it accordingly, and they’re right almost all the time. If you could just get 1-2 defenders to take one step wider pre snap, bam the route tree doubles, guys are getting wide open on designed routes just because of the defenders alignment. And the sad reason as to why we aren’t calling throws outside to open up these possibilities, is because Lamar can’t excecute it, the receivers can’t either don’t get me wrong, but Lamar just can’t right now.

I think I believe he can eventually get that part of his game going, unfortunately I’m not sure it’s gonna happen during his rookie deal or even in Baltimore, sounds crazy but this will be the trend for our offense if the boundary game isn’t developed big time and we can’t be sure Eric gives the mega contract if this continues for 2 more years