The 2021 Offseason Thread

[Grim]

I would say add inside/offball LB to that list. With the four guys we have and the investment plus our safety tandem, and the general shit value of the position, I’d absolutely hate if we spent anything prior to round 6 on that. I’d also not be too fond a pure 0tech type of guy prior to round 4. A good looking 3tech or hybrid type of DL would be exciting, and actually it’s a very interesting position for me, but if we took a pure nose early I’d be pretty bummed

I’d love a DB, edge, WR, TE, OL, or pass rushing DL. I think I named nearly every position group besides QB, RB, LB lol. S is a low key need for me tbh.

 

[Simba]

I’d love a DB, edge, WR, TE, OL, or pass rushing DL. I think I named nearly every position group besides QB, RB, LB lol. S is a low key need for me tbh.

Yeah I think those 3 positions are the only ones that are not likely to be touched in this draft, unless really late. Think DL and CB/S are sneaky options for an early pick but would think they'd lean toward one of the bigger holes if players are similarly ranked, because they aren't necessarily immediate needs. But they look like prime options for an early pick in 2022 if we're able to fill all of the other holes. I even think TE could be much higher on the list than some of us think.

 

[Simba]

 

[rossihunter2]

2019 was a rough year of roster transactions. With both Sieler and Senat, they got caught in the numbers game when injuries started to hit, and I too think they were the wrong decisions. We had guys like Brynden Trawick and Justin Bethel (who eventually turned into Jordan Richards) who were pure STers. All the while, we were also holding onto guys like Jaleel Scott, Ben Powers, and Daylon Mack who didn't play many games for us. Powers looks like a good decision now of course, but still tough to have that many guys on the 53 without any semblance of a role.

I understand carrying daylon mack as a rookie (although very surprised they didn’t phantom i/r him at some point) but jaleel Scott made no sense to me - he had no spot on the team and didn’t offer any special teams value

to think we let sieler go for mack
And senat for Scott...

 

[rossihunter2]

If the best player available when we pick in the 1st round is a RB, we won't take him. It doesn't matter how high he's ranked or what the pundits think about it. The Ravens "board" is designed in a way that said player will never be the best player on the board at that point. They don't just arbitrarily rank all players in a vacuum. They focus on positions that this team needs to upgrade, and work from there.

its not that this couldn’t happen in terms of the way they’d stack the board - but it’s highly unlikely because it would require every single player graded at that level to be gone and for us to not be able to find a trade down to get out of that spot

it’s certainly possible that they take a player who’s not a need but unlikely because also the way that the organisation thinks about need which is that in the draft they look at need for the present year but also the next year (steelers have a similar approach too) - and when you look at the roster and need like that it’s exceedingly unlikely that you’ll ever be picking a position that isn’t a “need” because of the way rosters turnover

if we include 2022 into the need list then I’m not sure there’s a position other than QB that isn’t a need

 

[rossihunter2]

, so yeah—I’m good with that. That’s what I originally said too was 3rd is fine but I don’t think we’re required to take one before then either. I just don’t think we’re compelled to take one before the 3rd. I think we’re fine

but what makes you think we’re fine - we’d literally not have a right tackle (or even a backup right tackle) - that just makes no sense to me - it would be unlike us to have our hand forced early in a draft but our hand would be forced

 

[BoredMarine13]

but what makes you think we’re fine - we’d literally not have a right tackle (or even a backup right tackle) - that just makes no sense to me - it would be unlike us to have our hand forced early in a draft but our hand would be forced

Completely agree , this doesn’t make any sense. Even if we get a “haul”, it’s a proven commodity in Brown for unproven picks. Things must be far worse than the organization has let on if DeCosta is allowing him to seek a trade.


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[JoeyFlex5]

I’d love a DB, edge, WR, TE, OL, or pass rushing DL. I think I named nearly every position group besides QB, RB, LB lol. S is a low key need for me tbh.

S is a high key need for me because while I like both of our guys, we only have 2 real safeties, and coverage is neither of their strong suits.

that said, I think we can get by with these guys if need be.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

He’s afraid of hurting his stock

but what makes you think we’re fine - we’d literally not have a right tackle (or even a backup right tackle) - that just makes no sense to me - it would be unlike us to have our hand forced early in a draft but our hand would be forced

We were fine with Phillips and fluker rotating, yeah it was ugly but we made it work. And if you told me we couldn’t come out of this class with a competent RT and upgrade to fluker and Phillips, then I’d suggest firing the EDC and the OL coach, but I damn sure wouldn’t do that lol.

Completely agree , this doesn’t make any sense. Even if we get a “haul”, it’s a proven commodity in Brown for unproven picks. Things must be far worse than the organization has let on if DeCosta is allowing him to seek a trade.


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that’s extreme

 

[RavensMania]

that wasn't a trade though

hmmm, good point, but he could have meant a signing.

 

[rmcjacket23]

its not that this couldn’t happen in terms of the way they’d stack the board - but it’s highly unlikely because it would require every single player graded at that level to be gone and for us to not be able to find a trade down to get out of that spot

it’s certainly possible that they take a player who’s not a need but unlikely because also the way that the organisation thinks about need which is that in the draft they look at need for the present year but also the next year (steelers have a similar approach too) - and when you look at the roster and need like that it’s exceedingly unlikely that you’ll ever be picking a position that isn’t a “need” because of the way rosters turnover

if we include 2022 into the need list then I’m not sure there’s a position other than QB that isn’t a need

Right. Its BPA at a position of need. And I can't recall an offseason where we didn't have at least 3-4 positions that were needs. In most drafts, its more than that.

We were a 14-2 team last year and we were an 11 win team this year that made the playoffs. And we could upgrade just about everywhere. Its pretty rare that any team would go into the draft being like "ehh, it doesn't matter who we take... we're great everywhere".

The difference is a team like the Steelers would go into the draft and be like "we need a Corner", and they'll just take a Corner in round 1 no matter what. In some cases, that works out. In others, you're drafting a position instead of a player, and if the player is no good, then guess what? You're in the same boat the next year. If you focus more on getting good football players, the roster will work itself out.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Okay, I just said I don’t think we have to pick an OT in the first or second. The third round pick is a comp
, so yeah—I’m good with that. That’s what I originally said too was 3rd is fine but I don’t think we’re required to take one before then either. I just don’t think we’re compelled to take one before the 3rd. I think we’re fine. As for your point on drafting a 6th or 7th round pick, I disagree there because I think we absolutely do think that they would think those guys are “strong efforts” to replace Brown and come in and contribute based on what I saw before. I can’t remember the position or draft but I know we did something similar and I thought that was a bit stupid. I also agree on BPA because we clearly take best player available at positions we could use.

Well, in terms of the 6th and 7th rounders, its a mixed bag...
1. 7th rounders have basically no shot of contributing. At least, based on historical data from this organization. Michael Campanaro may be the best 7th round pick in Ravens history. They've done better with UDFA's, like a James Hurst, then they've done with 7th round picks.
So there's no way the Ravens can take any player in the 7th and expect him to be anything more than a long shot, long term, development project.
2. 6th rounders, historically, weren't a ton better. There were some solid depth players and contributors, but it's only been in the last 5-10 years where we've had some "hits".
If you start from 2013,
Ryan Jensen - good player, but took several years to develop into one. Only really got like 1.5 good years out of him
Keith Wenning
Darren Waller - outstanding player... for another team
Maurice Canady
Keenan Reynolds
Chuck Clark - good player
Bradley Bozeman - good player
Greg Senat
Deshon Elliott
Trace McSorley
James Proche

So there's certainly some guys to like in there, but a lot of these guys never got or even earned opportunities for starting jobs, and likely never will. Several are out of the league entirely, and several others may soon be.

 

[rossihunter2]

We were fine with Phillips and fluker rotating, yeah it was ugly but we made it work. And if you told me we couldn’t come out of this class with a competent RT and upgrade to fluker and Phillips, then I’d suggest firing the EDC and the OL coach, but I damn sure wouldn’t do that lol.

It was fine right up until the moment running the football wasn’t working at which point it became completely untenable

if we want a working passing game then we cannot have either of those 2 at RT

the fact that we were still rotating in the playoffs should have been the biggest indicator that it wasn’t actually fine

 

[rossihunter2]

Well, in terms of the 6th and 7th rounders, its a mixed bag...
1. 7th rounders have basically no shot of contributing. At least, based on historical data from this organization. Michael Campanaro may be the best 7th round pick in Ravens history. They've done better with UDFA's, like a James Hurst, then they've done with 7th round picks.
So there's no way the Ravens can take any player in the 7th and expect him to be anything more than a long shot, long term, development project.
2. 6th rounders, historically, weren't a ton better. There were some solid depth players and contributors, but it's only been in the last 5-10 years where we've had some "hits".
If you start from 2013,
Ryan Jensen - good player, but took several years to develop into one. Only really got like 1.5 good years out of him
Keith Wenning
Darren Waller - outstanding player... for another team
Maurice Canady
Keenan Reynolds
Chuck Clark - good player
Bradley Bozeman - good player
Greg Senat
Deshon Elliott
Trace McSorley
James Proche

So there's certainly some guys to like in there, but a lot of these guys never got or even earned opportunities for starting jobs, and likely never will. Several are out of the league entirely, and several others may soon be.

Zach Sieler has probably overtaken camp as the best 7th round pick of the ravens - just happens that he’s succeeded on a new team lol

and that’s a pretty amazing hit-rate for the 6th round

but this is why I have no 7th round grade in my grading system because at that point in the draft you’re either hoping a talent much higher on your board is still there or you’re basically taking a priority free agent

and the reason more UDFAs make it vs 7th round picks is because there’s more of them

 

[rmcjacket23]

It was fine right up until the moment running the football wasn’t working at which point it became completely untenable

if we want a working passing game then we cannot have either of those 2 at RT

the fact that we were still rotating in the playoffs should have been the biggest indicator that it wasn’t actually fine

Agree with the last part. There's positions on the field where rotations can be helpful and solid for the team during a game. RB rotations are generally a good thing. Defensive line, pass rushers, sometimes even Corner.

Offensive line isn't one of them. Stanley, Brown, Powers and Bozeman don't rotate. They're only missing snaps when they're hurt. Fluker/Phillips rotate because neither is good enough to play a full complement of snaps.

Now, to JoeyFlex's point, it doesn't mean that if you're weak at Tackle you can't win football games. We know that's not true. Like I've said about a thousand times... go back and look at the 2014 Ravens offensive line that beat Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh in the playoffs, and still put up a good offensive display against NE in a loss. It was not pretty. If I recall, Hurst was playing LT, and Yanda was playing RT. If you can win with that, you can win some games with Fluker or Phillips at RT.

But yes, they suck in pass protection, and in games where teams shut down the run, they're not going to hold up. And you'll lose some of those games, including playoff games, which is what we saw.

 

[rossihunter2]

Agree with the last part. There's positions on the field where rotations can be helpful and solid for the team during a game. RB rotations are generally a good thing. Defensive line, pass rushers, sometimes even Corner.

Offensive line isn't one of them. Stanley, Brown, Powers and Bozeman don't rotate. They're only missing snaps when they're hurt. Fluker/Phillips rotate because neither is good enough to play a full complement of snaps.

Now, to JoeyFlex's point, it doesn't mean that if you're weak at Tackle you can't win football games. We know that's not true. Like I've said about a thousand times... go back and look at the 2014 Ravens offensive line that beat Pittsburgh in Pittsburgh in the playoffs, and still put up a good offensive display against NE in a loss. It was not pretty. If I recall, Hurst was playing LT, and Yanda was playing RT. If you can win with that, you can win some games with Fluker or Phillips at RT.

But yes, they suck in pass protection, and in games where teams shut down the run, they're not going to hold up. And you'll lose some of those games, including playoff games, which is what we saw.

the point being that at some point during a Super Bowl run you’re going to have to throw the ball and if your OL can’t pass protect you’re screwed - even KC couldn’t overcome shit pass pro

so if those are your aspirations then fluker/Phillips won’t do

 

[JoeyFlex5]

It was fine right up until the moment running the football wasn’t working at which point it became completely untenable

if we want a working passing game then we cannot have either of those 2 at RT

the fact that we were still rotating in the playoffs should have been the biggest indicator that it wasn’t actually fine

And all I’m saying is that if we’re able to field a competent RT which we have almost never had a problem doing, then we will be fine.

he’s gonna be gone, now we gotta add a RT, it’s not really even a choice anymore. If we did what we did with those 2, we can make this work with a nice trade haul

 

[rmcjacket23]

And all I’m saying is that if we’re able to field a competent RT which we have almost never had a problem doing, then we will be fine.

he’s gonna be gone, now we gotta add a RT, it’s not really even a choice anymore. If we did what we did with those 2, we can make this work with a nice trade haul

Well, sort of. Who's playing LT if Stanley gets hurt after you trade Brown?

We don't need one Tackle. We need at least 2, maybe 3. Phillips will be back on account of him being cheap and on a rookie deal. Fluker is a ?, and then its either draft or FA, with the former being more likely.

Been beating this drum for years too. We've been VERY fortunate with injuries on the Oline for the last probably 2-3 years. Stanley misses some time, but until last year, never really missed a large chunk. And Brown basically never missed time. Bozeman been pretty durable also.

Understanding its hard enough to find competent Tackle play in the draft, and I guess it wouldn't surprise me to see the Ravens add some journeyman to that room. But we've been playing with fire with lack of depth at Tackle for a few years now. And when we don't have Brown here, regardless of whether its this year or next year, that's a priority. I don't care if we replace Brown with a stud. Somebody average will do just fine. But if there's rotten eggs behind that, and Stanley gets hurt again, you're screwed.

 

[Grim]

but what makes you think we’re fine - we’d literally not have a right tackle (or even a backup right tackle) - that just makes no sense to me - it would be unlike us to have our hand forced early in a draft but our hand would be forced

I don’t think we’re all good but I think we can deal with a weakness at RT if the remaining OL is solid. The reality is if we’re forced to trade Brown that makes this different entirely. Right now I’d keep Brown unless it meant we got an offer we couldn’t refuse. That would need to be a big haul for me because as you say it would hurt us a lot. You’re right there and there’s no two ways about it. I just trust the Ravens to do the right thing. If we trade Brown it’s because we either see something in one of our guys nobody here sees or they have a plan to fill the spot. I don’t think that plan needs to be a 1st or 2nd but I’m also not against it either if it’s the best player. The reason being is you could get a Lt to replace Stanley if he’s ever hurt or if you want to trade him in 5 years or whatever for whatever reason.

Well, in terms of the 6th and 7th rounders, its a mixed bag...
1. 7th rounders have basically no shot of contributing. At least, based on historical data from this organization. Michael Campanaro may be the best 7th round pick in Ravens history. They've done better with UDFA's, like a James Hurst, then they've done with 7th round picks.
So there's no way the Ravens can take any player in the 7th and expect him to be anything more than a long shot, long term, development project.
2. 6th rounders, historically, weren't a ton better. There were some solid depth players and contributors, but it's only been in the last 5-10 years where we've had some "hits".
If you start from 2013,
Ryan Jensen - good player, but took several years to develop into one. Only really got like 1.5 good years out of him
Keith Wenning
Darren Waller - outstanding player... for another team
Maurice Canady
Keenan Reynolds
Chuck Clark - good player
Bradley Bozeman - good player
Greg Senat
Deshon Elliott
Trace McSorley
James Proche

So there's certainly some guys to like in there, but a lot of these guys never got or even earned opportunities for starting jobs, and likely never will. Several are out of the league entirely, and several others may soon be.

There’s no doubt our late round picks have been hit or miss but that’s mostly every team. I do think we’re better than most at OL development outside maybe C. I don’t think anyone here is dumb enough to think that we can just replace Brown Jr if we traded him with a first round pick let alone a late round pick. With that said, I do think we could get 50% of what Brown does from a 3rd-5th round pick. If we can upgrade at G or if our G play improves a lot then that will also help considerably. I’m also not a fan of Philips but he didn’t get the most coaching he could’ve due to the unique offseason. I’d hope he could also improve and maybe push for the spot.

Well, sort of. Who's playing LT if Stanley gets hurt after you trade Brown?

We don't need one Tackle. We need at least 2, maybe 3. Phillips will be back on account of him being cheap and on a rookie deal. Fluker is a ?, and then its either draft or FA, with the former being more likely.

Been beating this drum for years too. We've been VERY fortunate with injuries on the Oline for the last probably 2-3 years. Stanley misses some time, but until last year, never really missed a large chunk. And Brown basically never missed time. Bozeman been pretty durable also.

Understanding its hard enough to find competent Tackle play in the draft, and I guess it wouldn't surprise me to see the Ravens add some journeyman to that room. But we've been playing with fire with lack of depth at Tackle for a few years now. And when we don't have Brown here, regardless of whether its this year or next year, that's a priority. I don't care if we replace Brown with a stud. Somebody average will do just fine. But if there's rotten eggs behind that, and Stanley gets hurt again, you're screwed.

No team in the league has a guy they could easily slide into LT and play at a high caliber near the starting incumbent as we did as far as I saw last year. That’s a luxury I love but it was never sustainable.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Well, sort of. Who's playing LT if Stanley gets hurt after you trade Brown?

We don't need one Tackle. We need at least 2, maybe 3. Phillips will be back on account of him being cheap and on a rookie deal. Fluker is a ?, and then its either draft or FA, with the former being more likely.

Been beating this drum for years too. We've been VERY fortunate with injuries on the Oline for the last probably 2-3 years. Stanley misses some time, but until last year, never really missed a large chunk. And Brown basically never missed time. Bozeman been pretty durable also.

Understanding its hard enough to find competent Tackle play in the draft, and I guess it wouldn't surprise me to see the Ravens add some journeyman to that room. But we've been playing with fire with lack of depth at Tackle for a few years now. And when we don't have Brown here, regardless of whether its this year or next year, that's a priority. I don't care if we replace Brown with a stud. Somebody average will do just fine. But if there's rotten eggs behind that, and Stanley gets hurt again, you're screwed.

Oh I agree, you can’t really have strong starters and depth all around though, that’s why this offseason I’ve been clamoring to attack the OL with volume. Like I want edge and wr help, but if I had to choose one group to throw the kitchen sink at, it’s OL, and that’s with or without brown.