Lamar Jackson

[3-4ravdef509]

You obviously don’t watch film

“You don’t agree with me so you don’t watch film “

Great argument.

Not the best one you’ve made tonight though

 

[RavensMania]

i think biased is fair given that it clearly seems to affect the way he thinks about lamar as a quarterback...
just my 2 cents on the (2nd) word-choice

And I had changed the racist comment immediately, he just quoted me quickly. Biased is extremely fair

 

[3-4ravdef509]

And I had changed the racist comment immediately, he just quoted me quickly. Biased is extremely fair

Where is my bias bro? I’m biased to think Lamar isn’t a good passer right now? I’m biased to not like his style of play? I mean wtf do you mean by biased? Don’t ascribe a label on me that you aren’t defining and justifying.

 

[RavensMania]

Titans, bengals, browns, panthers all suck. You lying
To yourself if you think otherwise.may be tough games for us but they all suck.

The panthers have a very good home record the past few seasons. Only lost s couple games. That are a completely different team, but yes we were very bad that day and it was our only game we were destroyed this season.

 

[RavensMania]

was he? im pretty sure that the only stat where joe rated in the top 10 after week 9 was pass attempts

And this is correct.

 

[rossihunter2]

When we move the offense by running a significantly large percentage of those plays, I’d still call that a run first qb

This reminds me of when Kap took over for Smith. Except Kap was a better passer and stronger arm, but still Kaps main strength was running those zone reads and RPOs and running the ball was how they came back so viscuously against us in that second half

then you would be wrong - if he's running those plays its because the defence has given him the read to run on those plays...

and kap was not a better passer in any way shape or form - kap had very little to zero touch or downfield vision

 

[RavensFan419]

And this is correct.

I dont believe it is he was 9th in yards atleast during week 9

 

[jboy19]

why not - that seems like a rational way to judge if we're gonna judge lamar by the defences he faced then why wouldnt we judge the defences flacco faced in the same way?

it seems like people want to judge lamar and flacco on different scales

and even beyond statistics you only have to watch the teams we played in the adjacent weeks to see their form/abilities at that time

just having the same pieces doesnt mean a team cannot drastically change - scheme changes (especially post-bye), playing time changes, playcalling adjustments, players improving or regressing through the year...

the colts sucked and then won 5 straight - they were a drastically different team between their first 5 and second 5 games
likewise the texans were not a good team to start the year - they now might be on their way to a bye having just played their 2 most complete games of the year back to back

Just to be clear, I'm not one of the people saying Lamar only looked good because he was playing bad teams. I think he looked good because he is good. I don't necessarily think that the team has been completely turned around by Lamar alone (because I don't think the team was terrible before he took over) but I also don't think he should be benched for Flacco.

I just think it is fair to keep in perspective how this season went- Flacco played generally well early on before falling back on bad habits (checking down too early, staring down one read, etc.). I think it's harmful to judge teams in a vacuum because sometimes good teams have rough stretches (Houston, Indy). But when teams fluctuate, it's important to understand why. If it's a player coming back from injury or a new coordinator, I consider that different from if the team just gets to an easier stretch of their schedule or something like that.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

then you would be wrong - if he's running those plays its because the defence has given him the read to run on those plays...

and kap was not a better passer in any way shape or form - kap had very little to zero touch or downfield vision

Less touch and terrible at reading defenses but better arm and accuracy just in terms of straight line intermediate level. Granted I never watched film of Kap so I could be off.

 

[RavensMania]

what about zone-reads - because that's the vast majority of his runs

There are more injuries when a qb is hit in the pocket then when a qb runs in the zone read. This has stuck with me whe I read an article back in 2012, when RG3 led the Skins to the division title. If I can find that article I will post it.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

There are more injuries when a qb is hit in the pocket then when a qb runs in the zone read. This has stuck with me whe I read an article back in 2012, when RG3 led the Skins to the division title. If I can find that article I will post it.

Really? I’d be interested to read how they came to that conclusion.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

Because it’s not like we have equal sample sizes to do a really accurate study or extrapolations breakdown of

 

[rossihunter2]

Where is my bias bro? I’m biased to think Lamar isn’t a good passer right now? I’m biased to not like his style of play? I mean wtf do you mean by biased? Don’t ascribe a label on me that you aren’t defining and justifying.

bias is a well defined word - you are biased because you are bringing your pre-meditated disinclination for mobile qbs into the discussion of lamar - that's an inherent bias that manifests when you start disparaging him for his running...

you're literally bringing your general criticism of a subset of a group because of the subset its in into a discussion of an individual who fits within that subset - that seems like a pretty straight-forward example of bias to me

im not saying bias makes it an inherently bad take - but the bias itself is fairly undeniable and can be justifiably criticised when your own arguments dont compensate for your bias...

 

[3-4ravdef509]

bias is a well defined word - you are biased because you are bringing your pre-meditated disinclination for mobile qbs into the discussion of lamar - that's an inherent bias that manifests when you start disparaging him for his running...

you're literally bringing your general criticism of a subset of a group because of the subset its in into a discussion of an individual who fits within that subset - that seems like a pretty straight-forward example of bias to me

im not saying bias makes it an inherently bad take - but the bias itself is fairly undeniable and can be justifiably criticised when your own arguments dont compensate for your bias...

Well sure everyone has bias. What I’m upset about is the implication that it was an easy jump from racist to biased.

 

[rossihunter2]

Just to be clear, I'm not one of the people saying Lamar only looked good because he was playing bad teams. I think he looked good because he is good. I don't necessarily think that the team has been completely turned around by Lamar alone (because I don't think the team was terrible before he took over) but I also don't think he should be benched for Flacco.

I just think it is fair to keep in perspective how this season went- Flacco played generally well early on before falling back on bad habits (checking down too early, staring down one read, etc.). I think it's harmful to judge teams in a vacuum because sometimes good teams have rough stretches (Houston, Indy). But when teams fluctuate, it's important to understand why. If it's a player coming back from injury or a new coordinator, I consider that different from if the team just gets to an easier stretch of their schedule or something like that.

you're right that context matters - im not disagreeing with that at all - my point of contention was the use of a team's present form/stats/makeup to characterise it ~10 weeks ago

 

[rossihunter2]

Less touch and terrible at reading defenses but better arm and accuracy just in terms of straight line intermediate level. Granted I never watched film of Kap so I could be off.

kap is out of the league (beyond the blackballing) for a severe lack of accuracy, timing, touch or variation of pace in his passing
he probably has/had a stronger arm in terms of pure power but that's honestly not that important

 

[rossihunter2]

Really? I’d be interested to read how they came to that conclusion.

a qb in the pocket is naturally a defenceless player so id imagine that in and of itself would be a major factor - in the pocket the qb has a harder time protecting themselves from a hit (why the new emphasis rule that got clay matthews a couple of times earlier in the year is important in those terms)

a qb running is in control of momentum and can choose to avoid the hit or try and avoid the hit

much like feeling pressure in the pocket helps avoid injury and hits, learning to slide or get down or get out of bounds helps avoid injury and hits when a qb runs

and if you look at lamar in the raiders and falcons games notice how few hits he takes - and if you include hits in the pocket its probably even fewer relative to more static qbs

 

[RavensMania]

Less touch and terrible at reading defenses but better arm and accuracy just in terms of straight line intermediate level. Granted I never watched film of Kap so I could be off.

Kap could be throwing at the TE inside the numbers and hit the sideline in another state

 

[3-4ravdef509]

kap is out of the league (beyond the blackballing) for a severe lack of accuracy, timing, touch or variation of pace in his passing
he probably has/had a stronger arm in terms of pure power but that's honestly not that important

From what I remember he tended to throw everything on a line, but his accuracy wasn’t terrible. But I didn’t watch him much after the 2013

 

[RavensMania]

“You don’t agree with me so you don’t watch film “

Great argument.

Not the best one you’ve made tonight though

Don’t put words in my mouth. I said it that way because of how you answered the question.