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Lamar Jackson

A

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
RavensMania said:
You've tried to harp on this and just because it's happened that way, doesn't mean it has to happen that way so stop harping on the issue. It's not in the rule book.
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It’s not about the rulebook as there is no rulebook. They could vote Nathan Peterman MVP. Therefore it is what the voters care about.

I’m harping on it because it’s clearly what matters to the voters. Those voters decide and they clearly care about this. It’s not the best stats or the MVPs would look far different. Maybe 2-3 of the past 10 were the best statistical years. It is very clearly for the people who decide the award the QB playing the best among the top 2 seeds in each conference.
 
Sooky

Sooky

Pro Bowler
Adreme said:
It’s not about the rulebook as there is no rulebook. They could vote Nathan Peterman MVP. Therefore it is what the voters care about.

I’m harping on it because it’s clearly what matters to the voters. Those voters decide and they clearly care about this. It’s not the best stats or the MVPs would look far different. Maybe 2-3 of the past 10 were the best statistical years. It is very clearly for the people who decide the award the QB playing the best among the top 2 seeds in each conference.
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Do you think this would be a different conversation if the Bills end as the 2 seed and the Ravens win out and grab the #3 seed?
 
A

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
Sooky said:
Do you think this would be a different conversation if the Bills end as the 2 seed and the Ravens win out and grab the #3 seed?
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If the Bills lose 1 of their next 3 in that process yes (assuming Josh looks sloppy in a game and Lamar can have a Lamar game). then maybe. If the Bills lose 2 (which gives Ravens 2 seed) easily. If they lose 0 probably not. Right now Josh Allen is winning so something needs to change to make him be losing which would require him to well lose ground.

Rightly or wrongly there is a reason Vegas basically has this as a near foregone conclusion. Josh Allen, on my app, is -900 to win MVP. The Bills are also -900 heads up against the Patriots. Rightly or wrongly that is the level of favorite that Allen is at the moment which is why it is his race to lose.
 
RavensMania

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Adreme said:
It’s not about the rulebook as there is no rulebook. They could vote Nathan Peterman MVP. Therefore it is what the voters care about.

I’m harping on it because it’s clearly what matters to the voters. Those voters decide and they clearly care about this. It’s not the best stats or the MVPs would look far different. Maybe 2-3 of the past 10 were the best statistical years. It is very clearly for the people who decide the award the QB playing the best among the top 2 seeds in each conference.
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ironically those teams that are 1 or 2 seeds do tend to have qbs with very deserving stats. Hmmm, I wonder how that could happen
 
Simba

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
I don't think we should be discrediting Allen just because we're Ravens fans and have Lamar. Both are more than deserving as of now and I don't think either one is the right or wrong choice.
 
A

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
RavensMania said:
ironically those teams that are 1 or 2 seeds do tend to have qbs with very deserving stats. Hmmm, I wonder how that could happen
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Because its not the best season played by a QB. It is simply which QB among the top seeds is playing the best? One of the top 4 seeds is going to have a QB with good numbers and there is the MVP. Its not the QB with the best numbers because we all know Burrow is not even going to finish top 3 and likely not top 5. Its the QB with the best numbers among the top finishers. It is what it has been and, barring some historic season by a RB on a top 2 seed, its what it will continue to be.

If numbers decided the MVP Allen would be 3rd if not 4th, but right now he is massively ahead in the race. However right now Allen is -1000 to win MVP (yes it moved in the past couple hours) which is the worse odds the Bills are getting to beat the Patriots. I think its stupid as the idea of QB wins are stupid because its a team sport with team stats. However that is clearly the metric the voters use. If you think this is legitimately a close race though Lamar is sitting there now at +700 which is great value if Lamar even has a 1/3 chance.
 
D1City55

D1City55

Pro Bowler
People want Lamar to run but I love how he's extending plays with his legs in order to throw downfield. He's always been an aggressive thrower and it's paying off. I hope he keeps doing what he's doing an extending plays while looking downfield.
 
Baltimorican

Baltimorican

Practice Squad
Adreme said:
Because its not the best season played by a QB. It is simply which QB among the top seeds is playing the best? One of the top 4 seeds is going to have a QB with good numbers and there is the MVP. Its not the QB with the best numbers because we all know Burrow is not even going to finish top 3 and likely not top 5. Its the QB with the best numbers among the top finishers. It is what it has been and, barring some historic season by a RB on a top 2 seed, its what it will continue to be.

If numbers decided the MVP Allen would be 3rd if not 4th, but right now he is massively ahead in the race. However right now Allen is -1000 to win MVP (yes it moved in the past couple hours) which is the worse odds the Bills are getting to beat the Patriots. I think its stupid as the idea of QB wins are stupid because its a team sport with team stats. However that is clearly the metric the voters use. If you think this is legitimately a close race though Lamar is sitting there now at +700 which is great value if Lamar even has a 1/3 chance.
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Allen's supporting cast is trash, Lamar's is way better.
 
rmcjacket23

rmcjacket23

Hall of Famer
Adreme said:
It’s also because the MVP comes from the top 2 seeds. So unless the Bills actually start losing games, Allen basically has it locked up (btw their last 3 are Jets and Patriots x2).
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It doesn't necessarily have to be top two, but generally ends up that way.
Since 2012 (the last time a non-QB won the MVP), there's three criteria required to win a MVP:
1. Be a QB
2. Your team wins at least 11+ games. Typically it requires 12+
3. Your team wins their division.

They have no given the MVP to anybody who didn't win their division since 2012. And Matt Ryan in 2016 was the only person to win it going 11-5. Every other player had at least 12 wins. In a gigantic number of cases, it was one of the top seeds in the conference.

So based on "precedent", the Ravens will, at a minimum, need to win their division and probably win out to have any chance of Lamar even being considered. And then it'll come down to his performance vs Allen's in the last three. Lamar has two huge primetime games to show out.
 
Baltimorican

Baltimorican

Practice Squad
29BmoreBird22 said:
Said no one ever.
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Trash is a bit harsh. OLine is above average on par with ours, his skill players are very average and only got there with acquisition of Cooper. I know you gotta blink twice to see it, but Lamar probably has the best skill players group of the AFC contenders at his disposal this year.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Baltimorican said:
Trash is a bit harsh. OLine is above average on par with ours, his skill players are very average and only got there with acquisition of Cooper. I know you gotta blink twice to see it, but Lamar probably has the best skill players group of the AFC contenders at his disposal this year.
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His OL has been fantastic

skill positions are meh for sure albeit definitely not a bad group but that OL is up there with the best units in the league
 
A

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
rmcjacket23 said:
It doesn't necessarily have to be top two, but generally ends up that way.
Since 2012 (the last time a non-QB won the MVP), there's three criteria required to win a MVP:
1. Be a QB
2. Your team wins at least 11+ games. Typically it requires 12+
3. Your team wins their division.

They have no given the MVP to anybody who didn't win their division since 2012. And Matt Ryan in 2016 was the only person to win it going 11-5. Every other player had at least 12 wins. In a gigantic number of cases, it was one of the top seeds in the conference.

So based on "precedent", the Ravens will, at a minimum, need to win their division and probably win out to have any chance of Lamar even being considered. And then it'll come down to his performance vs Allen's in the last three. Lamar has two huge primetime games to show out.
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I mean Lamar is going to be considered and finish likely 2nd but lets take it a step further to demonstrate how inevitable Allen's MVP case is by using a simple hypothetical statline.

Lamar goes 3-0 900 yards passing 11 total TDs 0 INTs with a 130ish rating and the Steelers slip up letting the Ravens take the division. Allen goes 3-0 with 600 yards passing 6 total TDs 2 INTs and a 90ish rating. Allen is still MVP by a comfortable margin and that is what the current MVP odds represent.

Allen HAS to lose at least 1 of the next 3 to not be the runaway favorite and his opponents are the Patriots, who have no chance of winning against the Bills, and the Jets, who at least have a low chance but very likely still lose. Its simply not close right now despite the fact that Lamar has the better numbers because the voters do not care about that.
 
Sooky

Sooky

Pro Bowler
Baltimorican said:
Allen's supporting cast is trash, Lamar's is way better.
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Ravens room has bigger names, I do think a lot of the Bills players are younger and are very underrated. They don't have an insane player in their receiving room, but they do have solid WRs across the board with different skill sets. Two solid tight ends and their running back room is good. Top 5 o-line in the league. Bills and Ravens defense are about the same in rankings as of now so that's a wash.

The Ravens have had to overcome the o-line being a massive weakness against teams like the Raiders, Steelers, and Chiefs. If anyone wants to watch a masterclass on how to avoid pressure and make big plays in the pocket, that Raiders game might have been Lamar's best game ever in his career escaping pressure and making plays out of it.

I agree the Ravens on paper have an edge at TE, WR, and RB. But the Bills definitely have the better o-line.

Ravens have also had to overcome the defense being the worst in the league over the first half of the season and Justin Tucker having the lowest field goal percentage in the league.

I believe I saw a stat (someone would have to look it up and correct me): Bills against playoff teams this year are 3-3 and the Ravens are 5-3. Bills have the better record, but they are probably in the worst division in football as of now.
 
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